My 57 ft Boat refurb

[MtB]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Ugh!  Chipboard floors in a boat, seriously bad idea. I know marine ply is not was it used to be and expensive but you would be better off with Resin bonded OSB.

[Manxcat54]

It's 22mm Caberfloor and better than any of the ply around, it's very solid, it's not CHIPBOARD

[MrsM]

Have been following with interest. Having sold my boat I have to get my boaty fix vicariously nowadays. The recent thread highlighting issues with the RCD makes me wonder what the process of getting a self fit-out approved for the RCD/R is?  Does one engage an appropriately qualified surveyor/assessor to sign off at different stages, for example when the wiring loom or gas installation is fitted and visible? A bit like how building control come and inspect ongoing work on a property? Obviously inspecting an installation is much easier before it is hidden away being panelling etc. How does one go about this?

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MrsM said:

Have been following with interest. Having sold my boat I have to get my boaty fix vicariously nowadays. The recent thread highlighting issues with the RCD makes me wonder what the process of getting a self fit-out approved for the RCD/R is?  Does one engage an appropriately qualified surveyor/assessor to sign off at different stages, for example when the wiring loom or gas installation is fitted and visible? A bit like how building control come and inspect ongoing work on a property? Obviously inspecting an installation is much easier before it is hidden away being panelling etc. How does one go about this?

 

This is just my understanding that might be incorrect.

 

As you posted in this articular thread the bat must be pre-RCR so is not in scope, as long as the OP conforms with the BSS there should be no problems.

 

The core of the RCD/RCR boat documentation seems to be the boat manual that should (but from what I have heard often does not)  give the full details of all the equipment and fit out, showing how they meet the various clauses. This is probably easiest done by complying with the relevant ISOs, in which case it will be deemed to be compliant. Otherwise, the builder will need to prove that their solution does meet the regulations.

 

If the boat is completed with a full manual, then the cost of getting the certificate should be minimal. One way of ensuing it does meet the ISOs is to work with a surveyor throughout the build, exactly as you describe. I am not sure if a DIY builder can still apply to the RYA to get the certificate, but at one time this was possible, but presumably the RYA would need to see adequate documentation - the manual.

 

The manual should have a full wiring diagram showing cable sizes and colours etc. Likewise, one would hope that a similar specification or diagram for the gas system would be included, as would the domestic water system if that alls under the RCD/RCR.

 

What should be provided and what is provided do not always seem to be the same.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

This is just my understanding that might be incorrect.

 

As you posted in this articular thread the bat must be pre-RCR so is not in scope, as long as the OP conforms with the BSS there should be no problems.

 

The core of the RCD/RCR boat documentation seems to be the boat manual that should (but from what I have heard often does not)  give the full details of all the equipment and fit out, showing how they meet the various clauses. This is probably easiest done by complying with the relevant ISOs, in which case it will be deemed to be compliant. Otherwise, the builder will need to prove that their solution does meet the regulations.

 

If the boat is completed with a full manual, then the cost of getting the certificate should be minimal. One way of ensuing it does meet the ISOs is to work with a surveyor throughout the build, exactly as you describe. I am not sure if a DIY builder can still apply to the RYA to get the certificate, but at one time this was possible, but presumably the RYA would need to see adequate documentation - the manual.

 

The manual should have a full wiring diagram showing cable sizes and colours etc. Likewise, one would hope that a similar specification or diagram for the gas system would be included, as would the domestic water system if that alls under the RCD/RCR.

 

What should be provided and what is provided do not always seem to be the same.

 

 

That is pretty much how it is, except :

 

The RYA no longer are the UK controlling authority for compliance.

 

The Raison d'etre of the RCD is to ensure a safe boat and that boats are built to the same standards the RCD lists 'essential requirements' that ust be met in construction - the owners manual summarises that those have been met, and as you suggest should inclube schematics for gas, water, and electic circuits.

 

There are a RCD/RCR Approved surveyors who can be commissioned to oversee the build (much as Building Control) and this is probably a far cheaper way of ensuring compliance than having to pay £4000 (?) to get a PCA.

The other benefit is that it is then the Surveyor who is signing as legally responsible for the boat build - not the DIYer - and they would be held criminally responsible if there was any (say) loss of life due to a fault in the build.

 

 

[Tacet]

53 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is pretty much how it is, except :

 

The RYA no longer are the UK controlling authority for compliance.

 

The Raison d'etre of the RCD is to ensure a safe boat and that boats are built to the same standards the RCD lists 'essential requirements' that ust be met in construction - the owners manual summarises that those have been met, and as you suggest should

 

The other benefit is that it is then the Surveyor who is signing as legally responsible for the boat build - not the DIYer - and they would be held criminally responsible if there was any (say) loss of life due to a fault in the build.

 

 

That's a bit simplistic.  The surveyor would have to be shown, to the criminal standard, to have been negligent.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That's a bit simplistic.  The surveyor would have to be shown, to the criminal standard, to have been negligent.

 

Whatever - it does at least remove the responsibility from the DIY builder, who is more likely to make that mistake without the surveyors oversight.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That's a bit simplistic.  The surveyor would have to be shown, to the criminal standard, to have been negligent.

 

I am not sure about that. I suspect signing off a non-compliant boat as meeting the RCD/RCR would be a civil offence that requires only "on the balance of probability" style of proof. Then there is contract law (another section of civil law) between the surveyor and the person commissioning him.

 

Anyone who advertises or says or behaves in a way that leads people to believe that they possess a certain skill is deemed in law to be an expert i that skill. The law will hold that person to a higher standard than "the man on the Clapham omnibus". This is known as "passing off" and far too many people (especially on internet forums and such like) do not seem to know this.

 

Signing a document saying a boat complies with the RCD/RCR is totally different from providing a survey, so I doubt the usual surveyor get out clauses would stand up in court. The boat either complies or not, and if not, why did the "expert" surveyor fail to notice that. Having terms and conditions saying if I can't readily see it I am in the clear, I doubt would be accepted as a defence..

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Manxcat54 said:

It's 22mm Caberfloor and better than any of the ply around, it's very solid, it's not CHIPBOARD

Its moisture RESISTANT CHIPBOARD !

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its moisture RESISTANT CHIPBOARD !

 

Give the guy a break - its only the manufacturers and their distributors that say it is chipboard : 

 

"Caberfloor Moisture Resistant Chipboard is an internal high-density floor panel, used extensively in new house builds and refurbishment projects. The high-strength structural particleboard is CE marked and engineered for all domestic and specific commercial flooring. The precision tongued and grooved board offers a stable and easy to lay profile. The chipboard is FSC chain of custody certification".

 

 

And what do they know ?

[Tracy D'arth]

What degree of resistance is the question. 

The occasional splash or the occasional dipping in water.  Or on a boat the permanent water sloshing underneath and the condensation 9 months of the year.

 I have seen loads of houses with weetabix under radiator valves that drip a bit.

I have also seen lots of boats with spongy chipboard floors.

[truckcab79]

Maybe don’t ruin this guys build thread with another competitive bore-off about the RCR/SOS/ABS/SAS as let’s be honest only two of you care so why not start your own thread on it and you can keep that going for as long as you like.  👍 

Edited April 20 by truckcab79

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

What degree of resistance is the question. 

 

I'd imagine that it has very little by the fact that the manufacturers supply a vinyl coated version which gives up to 42 days weather resistance between laying the floor and finishing the roof, so, if it gets rained on during a house build it wont dissolve.

Once completed the vinyl is peeled off and the final floor coverings can be put down.

 

Their next grade with the coating is :

 

An 18 or 22mm thickness flooring panel offering increased protection from the elements, Caberdek combines the UK’s market leading particleboard flooring with a tough, waterproof and slip-resistant film.

[Manxcat54]

14 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What degree of resistance is the question. 

The occasional splash or the occasional dipping in water.  Or on a boat the permanent water sloshing underneath and the condensation 9 months of the year.

 I have seen loads of houses with weetabix under radiator valves that drip a bit.

I have also seen lots of boats with spongy chipboard floors.

There won't be water on this boat

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The other benefit is that it is then the Surveyor who is signing as legally responsible for the boat build - not the DIYer - and they would be held criminally responsible if there was any (say) loss of life due to a fault in the build.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

That's a bit simplistic.  The surveyor would have to be shown, to the criminal standard, to have been negligent.

 

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am not sure about that. I suspect signing off a non-compliant boat as meeting the RCD/RCR would be a civil offence that requires only "on the balance of probability" style of proof. Then there is contract law (another section of civil law) between the surveyor and the person commissioning him.

 

To be held criminally responsible (as per Alan's claim) would require proof to the criminal standard.

 

A civil conviction would (unsurprisingly) require proof to the civil standard.

 

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Anyone who advertises or says or behaves in a way that leads people to believe that they possess a certain skill is deemed in law to be an expert i that skill. The law will hold that person to a higher standard than "the man on the Clapham omnibus". This is known as "passing off" and far too many people (especially on internet forums and such like) do not seem to know this.

 

 

Passing off is a civil offence whereby one party misrepresents its product or service as belonging to another particular party.  Using someone else's trade mark or branding is a typical example example.

 

A simple claim to exercise expertise not possessed is not passing off.

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, Tacet said:

A simple claim to exercise expertise not possessed is not passing off.

 

And your proof of that statement is?  It certainly was explained as thus during my motor management law classes when I was studying for my professional qualifications. I have since seen no reason to doubt it.

[MrsM]

1 hour ago, truckcab79 said:

Maybe don’t ruin this guys build thread with another competitive bore-off about the RCR/SOS/ABS/SAS as let’s be honest only two of you care so why not start you’re own thread on it and you can keep that going for as long as you like.  👍 

My mistake - I had forgotten the age of the boat and therefore that the RCD issue is not relevant here. Apologies to the OP for the deviation.

[Tacet]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

And your proof of that statement is?  It certainly was explained as thus during my motor management law classes when I was studying for my professional qualifications. I have since seen no reason to doubt it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off or

https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/businesses/srvcommercial/intellectual_property/passing-off/

etc

 

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Tacet said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off or

https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/businesses/srvcommercial/intellectual_property/passing-off/

etc

 

 

Thanks, but I still believe there is an offence committed when someone claims or conducts themselves in a manner that allows others to reasonably believe they have expertise that they do not and the law expects them to deliver that expertise. If they do not, then an offence has been committed. (For clarity, a civil offence).

[truckcab79]

13 minutes ago, MrsM said:

My mistake - I had forgotten the age of the boat and therefore that the RCD issue is not relevant here. Apologies to the OP for the deviation.

Not your issue. Perfectly valid question. Just doesn’t need to be answered by the usual suspects and their pointless nonsense. Would be a shame to see another decent build thread get ruined with this drivel.  

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, Manxcat54 said:

There won't be water on this boat

🤣  😁   😆   😂   😇   🤠  😏  No condensation then  ,,,, ever?

[Manxcat54]

No because i'm not a cold arse with fires everywhere, listen smarty I have a self build campervan and it's more difficult than a boat

[ditchcrawler]

Do boat builders still self certify for RCR like they did with RCD?

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, but I still believe there is an offence committed when someone claims or conducts themselves in a manner that allows others to reasonably believe they have expertise that they do not and the law expects them to deliver that expertise. If they do not, then an offence has been committed. (For clarity, a civil offence).

Quite so but civil transgressions are not usually called "offences"; torts or injuries are sometimes used.