Barrus Shanks stop solenoid button/switch?

[David Mack]

The OP's photo shows one half of a connector. Do we know if this has been connected to the mating half during the current ownership? Is the other half even there?

[jonathanA]

yep and according to the wiring diagrams posted there are two fuses in the circuit.   one thing it does seem an awfully complicated arrangement compared to a simple cable operated pull to stop arrangement or the more usual solenoid that operates the engine stop lever electrically. I suspect the 40A fuse in the starter to solenoid lead is there in case a fault results in the starter trying to energise via that wire. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I think we need to know what panel stop is fitted(if there is one) button/turn key panel and any testing the OP has done to come up with the idea/need of fitting a new engine stop system. This time of year and a wet engine bay, fuses can corrode quite easily but still look ok.

The standard system from that manual was turn the key 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

25 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The standard system from that manual was turn the key 

Yes, as I also have a Barrus, as I say I’m puzzled why he’s fitting a new remote stop button and not investigating the panel key stop if it’s not working.

[jonathanA]

25 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes, as I also have a Barrus, as I say I’m puzzled why he’s fitting a new remote stop button and not investigating the panel key stop if it’s not working.

hes not doing anything - its his girlfriends boat, who it seems has been stopping the engine by leaning over the running motor and operating the stop lever on the engine. it seems she has hurt herself (we all hope nothing serious) and now thinks this is perhaps not a good idea.... 

 

we don't know if that is how she bought the boat or something that developed.  I am always surprised at what inexperienced people think is acceptable, I recently went to sort out a charging issue on a widebeam, and the (new) owner thought it normal to lift the deck boards (on a Wide beam !) and disconnect the gear cable from the gearbox so he could run the engine above idle without turning the propeller! becuase the seller of the boat had neglected to mention that the morse control was cream crackered and showed him how to disconnect the gear cable, so he thought that was normal....  I ended up fitting a new morse control for him (it was a vetus actually) 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 24/01/2024 at 14:03, Tasemu said:

I've been looking at the engine and have found a stop solenoid attached to the lever which is terminated at a 4-pin plug. Does anyone know if it is possible to get a button or switch for this plug which i can route to a safe location?

@jonathanA Exactly it’s his girlfriend’s boat, that they seam to be renting looking at his initial  posts on here and looking at what he wrote he is thinking about fitting a retro stop button or something,  instead of trying to solve the problem of a non working key stop. Yes inexperienced boaters or maybe the landlord says “that’s how it is”.👍

Edited January 25 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

55 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

@jonathanA Looking at the initial post and what he said, it looks like he is thinking about fitting a stop button or something instead of trying to solve the problem of a non working key stop. Yes inexperienced boaters👍

 

Yes, I get that impression, BUT if I am correct that it is an energise to run setup, as it seems to be from Brian's post, then a simple stop button won't work unless you hold it in all the time the engine is running. However, if he did that and chose to energise the high current (pull in) coil it would probably burn out, if he energises he low current coil it may not have enough strength to move the run position. NOTE: this is still supposition, but based on four wires and the wiring diagram.

 

I think that if he wants a push button stop, then I think he will need to replace the sop solenoid with a different (two wire)  type that is in effect mounted on the other side of the stop lever. It will probably need a spring as well to keep the lever in the run position until the stop button is pressed.

Edited January 25 by Tony Brooks

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, I get that impression, BUT if I am correct that it is an energise to run setup, as it seems to be from Brian's post, then a simple stop button won't work unless you hold it in all the time the engine is running. However, if he did that and chose to energise the high current (pull in) coil it would probably burn out, if he energises he low current coil it may not have enough strength to move the run position. NOTE: this is still supposition, but based on four wires and the wiring diagram.

 

I think that if he wants a push button stop, then I think he will need to replace the sop solenoid with a different (two wire)  type that is in effect mounted on the other side of the stop lever. It will probably need a spring as well to keep the lever in the run position until the stop button is pressed.

Sorry was editing while you replied. As @ditchcrawler says turn key stop. Why not look to remedy the problem if not stopping on turn key? Why retro fit a stop? Does he know what he’s doing? If there is a non-working engine stop fitted fix it, don’t fit an alternative. 

Edited January 25 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Sorry was editing while you replied. As @ditchcrawler says turn key stop. Why not look to remedy the problem if not stopping on turn key? Why retro fit a stop? Does he know what he’s doing? If there is a non-working engine stop fitted fix it, don’t fit an alternative. 

 

Well, he fixed his generator by grafting a non-standard regulator to it, so I am sure he can fix this. You can't fix burned out coils apart from buying a new one - about £88, A Bowden cable, perhaps £10, or an energise to stop solenoid at about £25. We also do not know why it was disconnected, it could also be a wiring fault or an alternator fault (assuming my understanding is correct). It is his choice to decide which way to go, he has options.

Edited January 25 by Tony Brooks

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well, he fixed his generator by grafting a non-standard regulator to it, so I am sure he can fix this. You can't fix burned out coils apart from buying a new one - about £88, A Bowden cable, perhaps £10, or an energise to stop solenoid at about £25. We also do not know why it was disconnected, it could also be a wiring fault or an alternator fault (assuming my understanding is correct). It is his choice to decide which way to go, he has options.

 You can also over egg the problem or come up with all the self hype engineering solutions without knowing the facts to how far the problem has been investigated, tell you what the easiest solution would be replace the whole wiring loom and the control panel and all components in the stop function schematic👍

[sueanddaren]

Don't know if this helps but the Barrus Shanks engines where  Liadong engines (Shandong Huayuan Liadong engine company) think the popular  one (40hp) was  a LL480 but can't be sure about the exact model.

[Tracy D'arth]

Get RCR in. They will soon get a freshly painted replacement engine from KEY and fit the whole thing.  Oh, but then it will be the gearbox causing the problem!

[Tony Brooks]

I have just had another thought about this, although it is clear then my attempts to help the op achieve what he asked about are not welcome by all. This is again only conjecture.

 

I have been puzzling why there seems to be a need for a supply from the glow plug relay, so wonder if it is to pull the stop lever further to allow cold start enrichment (like the cold start button on some Listers and old injection pumps.)  The general design of the engine makes me think it has much more in common with our traditional engines than modern Kubota/ Mitsubishi units, so worth investigation if the original stop system is not made to work.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have just had another thought about this, although it is clear then my attempts to help the op achieve what he asked about are not welcome by all. This is again only conjecture.

 

I have been puzzling why there seems to be a need for a supply from the glow plug relay, so wonder if it is to pull the stop lever further to allow cold start enrichment (like the cold start button on some Listers and old injection pumps.)  The general design of the engine makes me think it has much more in common with our traditional engines than modern Kubota/ Mitsubishi units, so worth investigation if the original stop system is not made to work.

Good thought but I don't think the OP has mentioned any problems starting so I guess that side of things is working OK without the relay. Maybe the OP will post and tell us.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have just had another thought about this, although it is clear then my attempts to help the op achieve what he asked about are not welcome by all. This is again only conjecture.

 

I have been puzzling why there seems to be a need for a supply from the glow plug relay, so wonder if it is to pull the stop lever further to allow cold start enrichment (like the cold start button on some Listers and old injection pumps.)  The general design of the engine makes me think it has much more in common with our traditional engines than modern Kubota/ Mitsubishi units, so worth investigation if the original stop system is not made to work.

Because you seam to “over egg the pudding” all the time and it’s often a simple fix. The question the OP needs to answer is if the boat has a turn key stop and has he fault tested the whole loom and why fit an extra stop function if there is one in place and it’s able to be fixed?

Edited January 27 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Because you seam to “over egg the pudding” all the time and it’s often a simple fix. The question the OP needs to answer is if the boat has a turn key stop and has he fault tested the whole loom and why fit an extra stop function if there is one in place and it’s able to be fixed?

 

As you are so keen for the OP to diagnose this fault, then I am sure that you will be more than able to give him the resistance readings to be expected between each wire and the other three.  This is one of the standard diagnostic steps.  I assume that you can also tell him where the other half of the connector is.

 

The point is that I gave the OP practical answers to his question so he can choose, you just seem to say "fix the complicated system that has been disconnected and not working". I would suggest with little thought for the practicality and/or cost of following that advice.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

As you are so keen for the OP to diagnose this fault, then I am sure that you will be more than able to give him the resistance readings to be expected between each wire and the other three.  This is one of the standard diagnostic steps.  I assume that you can also tell him where the other half of the connector is.

 

The point is that I gave the OP practical answers to his question so he can choose, you just seem to say "fix the complicated system that has been disconnected and not working". I would suggest with little thought for the practicality and/or cost of following that advice.

Please give us a massive diagnostic of the situation with every scenario of why a stop solenoid won’t function to stop an engine👍 
 Or maybe it’s just a loose wire on the turn key stop or a simple corroded fuse? and the OP may not need to strip down the whole engine👍😂

Edited January 27 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[jonathanA]

4 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Please give us a massive diagnostic of the situation with every scenario of why a stop solenoid won’t function to stop an engine👍 
 Or maybe it’s just a loose wire on the turn key stop or a simple corroded fuse? and the OP may not need to strip down the whole engine👍😂

I'm really not sure why you are so far up your own alimentary canal. For starters you might do well to read the thread as all your posts suggest you haven't read it or didn't understand it.

 

It was established based on scant information, that most likely this should be a turn key to off to stop type arrangement. But without more information or confirmation from the OP or the OPs girlfriend we don't know. We do know that girlfriend injured herself stopping the engine using the engine stop lever and the op was considering some sort of manual stop arrangement in the short term. 

 

Of course if you have first-hand knowledge of this type of engine or the boat in question then please do enlighten us. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

5 hours ago, jonathanA said:

I'm really not sure why you are so far up your own alimentary canal. For starters you might do well to read the thread as all your posts suggest you haven't read it or didn't understand it.

 

It was established based on scant information, that most likely this should be a turn key to off to stop type arrangement. But without more information or confirmation from the OP or the OPs girlfriend we don't know. We do know that girlfriend injured herself stopping the engine using the engine stop lever and the op was considering some sort of manual stop arrangement in the short term. 

 

Of course if you have first-hand knowledge of this type of engine or the boat in question then please do enlighten us. 

I’ve read it and understand it perfectly, the OP seams to wants to stop the engine in a safe manner, the easiest and safest way to do that is by the manufacturers means, the fitted key stop function on the Barrus Shanks control panel, not by his idea of inserting a new wiring loom and stop button between plug and stop solenoid?

  My question has been from the start is why? if there is a stop system in place designed by the manufacturer why is he not trying to fix it, if it’s not working? I’m not going on about the complex wiring system of a Barrus Shanks or why they aren’t fitted with a pull stop(not really a modern engine thing)

  As I say I’m asking why not fix the manufactures engine stop intended for the engine? no need for inserting a secondary stop quick fix. But as the OP hasn’t answered any questions, pointless surmising or going on about the electrical wiring system of the engine, or what colour wire heats the glow plugs.

  If you and other’s want to guesstimate the wiring schematic situation carry on, I would rather ask direct questions to find out more to why she has been using her hand to stop the engine for a period of time and ultimately resulting in injury. If it was my girlfriend I would of sorted it straight away. The proverbial “Closing the Stable door after the Horse has bolted” springs to mind 🐴

Edited January 27 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

the OP seams to wants to stop the engine in a safe manner, the easiest and safest way to do that is by the manufacturers means, the fitted key stop function on the Barrus Shanks control panel, not by his idea if inserting a new wiring loom and stop button between plug and stop solenoid?

 

There you go, by your own admission, "in a safe way". The trouble is you then decide that the easiest and safest will be to use the manufacturer's fitments, which you do not know if they are working or not. It might be difficult if the other half of the connecting block has been cut off the loom. Where did he say that he wanted to insert a switch between the plug and stop solenoid. I think that is your interpretation, not fact. Of course he should, and probably has, checked the fuses now he knows they are there. If access is easy, he may have had a look under the control panel, but doing that in itself can result in connections pulling off in some installations.

 

In fact, if the other half of the connector has been cut off, your solution will require new loom work and if the solenoid has burned out at least £88. I would suggest that the energise to run solenoid is probably a Barrus fitment, not the engine manufacturer's, I would also suggest that in its native land that engine may well have been fitted with a stop cable.

 

You seem to like complicated electrical circuits and device, while I prefer the simpler methods. Tell me how fitting a cable stop is unsafe or not easy for someone who has managed to strip and repair his generator by fitting a non-standard part. Tell me what is unsafe or not easy about fitting an energise to stop solenoid and running a SINGLE cable from a push switch to it, the negative can be picked up, locally and the single cable can be zip-tied to the existing loom.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

There you go, by your own admission, "in a safe way". The trouble is you then decide that the easiest and safest will be to use the manufacturer's fitments, which you do not know if they are working or not. It might be difficult if the other half of the connecting block has been cut off the loom. Where did he say that he wanted to insert a switch between the plug and stop solenoid. I think that is your interpretation, not fact. Of course he should, and probably has, checked the fuses now he knows they are there. If access is easy, he may have had a look under the control panel, but doing that in itself can result in connections pulling off in some installations.

 

In fact, if the other half of the connector has been cut off, your solution will require new loom work and if the solenoid has burned out at least £88. I would suggest that the energise to run solenoid is probably a Barrus fitment, not the engine manufacturer's, I would also suggest that in its native land that engine may well have been fitted with a stop cable.

 

You seem to like complicated electrical circuits and device, while I prefer the simpler methods. Tell me how fitting a cable stop is unsafe or not easy for someone who has managed to strip and repair his generator by fitting a non-standard part. Tell me what is unsafe or not easy about fitting an energise to stop solenoid and running a SINGLE cable from a push switch to it, the negative can be picked up, locally and the single cable can be zip-tied to the existing loom.

Have a read what you’ve written, your presuming most of your theories to fix the solution, with things like “It might be difficult if the other half of the connecting block has been cut off the loom” 

 Your also presuming by saying it will requires a new loom if the solenoid has been burnt out, you don’t know as the OP has put nothing on to say why his girlfriend has been stopping the engine by hand. Also rubbish saying it might well of been fitted with a pull stop and of course the solenoid is Barrus.

  I’m not into complicated electrical circuits and devices, you think the solution is to plug into a new switch, anyone with sense would investigate why the key turn stop isn’t working, fix it and use it.  Maybe the OP isn’t as clever as you think 🤔 

 You ask

  “ Where did he say that he wanted to insert a switch between the plug and stop solenoid. I think that is your interpretation, not fact”

 He wrote

  “I've been looking at the engine and have found a stop solenoid attached to the lever which is terminated at a 4-pin plug. Does anyone know if it is possible to get a button or switch for this plug which i can route to a safe location?”

  That sounds that he would want to if possible? Wouldn’t a switch need to be connected to the plug and the stop solenoid to make it work? Be it after or before the plug and does it make a difference?

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Have a read what you’ve written, your presuming most of your theories to fix the solution, with things like “It might be difficult if the other half of the connecting block has been cut off the loom” 

 Your also presuming by saying it will requires a new loom if the solenoid has been burnt out, you don’t know as the OP has put nothing on to say why his girlfriend has been stopping the engine by hand. Also rubbish saying it might well of been fitted with a pull stop and of course the solenoid is Barrus.

  I’m not into complicated electrical circuits and devices, you think the solution is to plug into a new switch, anyone with sense would investigate why the key turn stop isn’t working, fix it and use it.  Maybe the OP isn’t as clever as you think 🤔 

 You ask

  “ Where did he say that he wanted to insert a switch between the plug and stop solenoid. I think that is your interpretation, not fact”

 He wrote

  “I've been looking at the engine and have found a stop solenoid attached to the lever which is terminated at a 4-pin plug. Does anyone know if it is possible to get a button or switch for this plug which i can route to a safe location?”

  That sounds that he would want to if possible? Wouldn’t a switch need to be connected to the plug and the stop solenoid to make it work? Be it after or before the plug and does it make a difference?

 

 

 

 

Your reading and understanding seems to be lacking. You obviously did not read or understand what I wrote. Please go back and re-read.

 

1. “It might be difficult if the other half of the connecting block has been cut off the loom” Did you read the word IF? There is no presumption, apart from in your mind. It is a conditional statement, so unless it is met (the plug has been cut off) it does not apply and can be ignored.

 

2. "it will requires a new loom if the solenoid has been burnt out". Again this is your presumption, you seem to have failed to read the word WORK, and it relates to that IF again so conditional. "What I wrote was if the other half of the connector has been cut off, your solution will require new loom work" Now, if you know a way of reattaching four wires and a plug to wires cut off at the harness please let us know, otherwise your solution will require LOOM WORK, like opening the loom so the wires can be extended and then rewrapping the loom. What I added to that paragraph -again using the conditional IF was that IF the solenoid is burnt out then a new one is required. Please explain how that is untrue. Are you suggesting that he should rewind any burned out solenoid coils and/or sort out any electronics or contact that relay case MIGHT contain. If you are, then it brings " Maybe the OP isn’t as clever as you think 🤔"  into question as  valid opinion.

 

This question was answered “I've been looking at the engine and have found a stop solenoid attached to the lever which is terminated at a 4-pin plug. Does anyone know if it is possible to get a button or switch for this plug which i can route to a safe location?” as soon as the possibility that it was an energise to run setup with the answer NO. Then I gave him alternatives that would probably allow remote operation if he wished to implement them, the alternatives that you took exception to.

 

I try to take care to ensure what I say is conditional on other things that we may or may not know at the time, you, however, your statement "the easiest and safest way to do that is by the manufacturers means, the fitted key stop function on the Barrus Shanks control panel, not by his idea of inserting a new wiring loom and stop button between plug and stop solenoid? " is not conditional, it is a statement of fact and I don't think that you can support it UNLESS you add some conditions to it because neither you nor I know what may or may not be wrong.

 

I also come back to your ongoing talk about new looms and engine strip down. If anyone is over egging anything, it is you - once you understand conditional statements.

[ditchcrawler]

I lay in bed last night thinking about this, it was one of those sorts of nights. If this relay has to be energised for the engine to run, how is the engine running now with the relay completely disconnected . Maybe the OP would like to come back and give us more information.

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I lay in bed last night thinking about this, it was one of those sorts of nights. If this relay has to be energised for the engine to run, how is the engine running now with the relay completely disconnected . Maybe the OP would like to come back and give us more information.

 

I think the solenoid just operates the stop control lever, the OP almost said as much when he said that his girlfriend had to reach across the running engine to stop the engine. The image of the solenoid seems to show a rod or cable sticking out that is likely to connect to the stop lever. One thing is for sure, it is not a single connection "screw into the injector pump" type solenoid as found on some BMC 1.8s and the Bosch rotary pumps.

 

I wish he would come back and give more info, but perhaps he is busy looking after his girlfriend.

 

Edited to add; I think Barrus feel their customers want their engines to work just like their cars, with the engine stopping when the ignition is turned off. No button pressing or stop position for the key switch.

Edited January 28 by Tony Brooks

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Edited to add; I think Barrus feel their customers want their engines to work just like their cars, with the engine stopping when the ignition is turned off. No button pressing or stop position for the key switch.

Maybe because it’s a simple way, just turn the key and the engine stops, there are also Barrus control panels with engine stop buttons, far easier than pull stop cables. It’s not just Barrus but the majority of modern engine supplies are the same.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Your reading and understanding seems to be lacking. You obviously did not read or understand what I wrote. Please go back and re-read.

 

1. “It might be difficult if the other half of the connecting block has been cut off the loom” Did you read the word IF? There is no presumption, apart from in your mind. It is a conditional statement, so unless it is met (the plug has been cut off) it does not apply and can be ignored.

 

2. "it will requires a new loom if the solenoid has been burnt out". Again this is your presumption, you seem to have failed to read the word WORK, and it relates to that IF again so conditional. "What I wrote was if the other half of the connector has been cut off, your solution will require new loom work" Now, if you know a way of reattaching four wires and a plug to wires cut off at the harness please let us know, otherwise your solution will require LOOM WORK, like opening the loom so the wires can be extended and then rewrapping the loom. What I added to that paragraph -again using the conditional IF was that IF the solenoid is burnt out then a new one is required. Please explain how that is untrue. Are you suggesting that he should rewind any burned out solenoid coils and/or sort out any electronics or contact that relay case MIGHT contain. If you are, then it brings " Maybe the OP isn’t as clever as you think 🤔"  into question as  valid opinion.

 

This question was answered “I've been looking at the engine and have found a stop solenoid attached to the lever which is terminated at a 4-pin plug. Does anyone know if it is possible to get a button or switch for this plug which i can route to a safe location?” as soon as the possibility that it was an energise to run setup with the answer NO. Then I gave him alternatives that would probably allow remote operation if he wished to implement them, the alternatives that you took exception to.

 

I try to take care to ensure what I say is conditional on other things that we may or may not know at the time, you, however, your statement "the easiest and safest way to do that is by the manufacturers means, the fitted key stop function on the Barrus Shanks control panel, not by his idea of inserting a new wiring loom and stop button between plug and stop solenoid? " is not conditional, it is a statement of fact and I don't think that you can support it UNLESS you add some conditions to it because neither you nor I know what may or may not be wrong.

 

I also come back to your ongoing talk about new looms and engine strip down. If anyone is over egging anything, it is you - once you understand conditional statements.

 Once again your going on about nothing really, just rabbiting on but not identifying the problem, the problem is the OP has put little info on to what caused the problem, he hasn’t mentioned the solenoid is working or not, he sort of indicates it would work if this button/switch is fitted?

 You jump in with all your over egg stuff but you never ask basic questions like Why is she using her hand and not the key stop? You just go into your overkill tech stuff, maybe “keep it simple stupid” and start with the basic fault finding, fuses and multi meter to test supply voltage. But the OP is not responding so if he cant be bothered maybe it’s not worth bothering about.