Lithium Batteries installation

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

Heavens, just imagine. If one were to engage in "affairs of the heart" on the boat it could be a nightmare.

Especially with me being so handsome and charming and everything. And constantly getting pestered by lady boaters vying for my attention. 

Well I do declare. The poor B2B would be on and off all night.  

Victron better get their act together or there'll be a warranty claim on their hands.

 

I think somebody's imagination was running away with them... 😉

 

(there's no vibration detector)

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Dunno where you got that idea from, it's not in the manual -- engine run/stop detection is either via input voltage or a switched power connection (engine run)...

Google it has a vibration sensor. 

[Tony1]

Just now, IanD said:

I think somebody's imagination was running away with them... 😉

 

(there's no vibration detector)

 

Thank Heavens, I shall ask the ladies to form an orderly queue again. 

 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Google it has a vibration sensor. 

Well it's not in the Victron manual, so maybe your Google source is wrong?

 

According to the manual it does detect engine running but by voltage (or a switch) not vibration. Maybe somebody misunderstood this?

Edited February 11 by IanD

[magnetman]

I see it is the Orion 50 not the Orion 50XS. My mistake ! 

 

https://www.nomadiccooling.com/products/victron-energy-ori303050000-orion-50-amp-programmable-buck-boost-dc-dc-converter

 

Not one of their blue box offerings

 

• Programmable on/off can be from a built in vibration sensor or a programmable input (D+, CANbus or (+)15 connection

 

 

Very similar name but the XS is cheaper. 

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

The orion 50 seems to have a vibration sensor so it goes on and off with the engine. 

Actually technically correct in this particular situation but not the product being discussed

Edited February 11 by magnetman

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I see it is the Orion 50 not the Orion 50XS. My mistake ! 

 

https://www.nomadiccooling.com/products/victron-energy-ori303050000-orion-50-amp-programmable-buck-boost-dc-dc-converter

Not the same beast at all -- older product, not as programmable, can't be paralleled, doesn't interface to Victron gear or app, and is more expensive.

Edited February 11 by IanD

[magnetman]

I got wires crossed. I bet its more durable but the lack of the app control would be a mark against. 

 

 

For the purposes being discussed anyway. 

36 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Well I do declare. The poor B2B would be on and off all night.  

Victron better get their act together or there'll be a warranty claim on their hands.

 

She offered her honour, he honoured her offer and all night long he was on her and off her. 

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

The non isolated, ( common ground),

Is that the only difference between isolated and non-isolated? Since both the engine and domestic batteries have to be grounded to the boat shell anyway, then what's the point of separate ground connections on the B2B?

[magnetman]

Some Boats have insulated return alternators. Also not all Boats are metal. 

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Is that the only difference between isolated and non-isolated? Since both the engine and domestic batteries have to be grounded to the boat shell anyway, then what's the point of separate ground connections on the B2B?

There's no point in most boats, except possibly to prevent currents flowing through the hull if the grounding is done wrongly (more than one ground connection to the hull with voltage differential between them).

[magnetman]

Radio Spares seem to think there are safety considerations

 

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/power-supplies-transformers/voltage-converters/dc-dc-converters/

 

"

DC-DC Converters

Isolated DC-DC converters convert a source of direct current (DC) from one voltage to another and contain an electrical barrier between the input and output to improve safety. They are suitable for a range of applications, including telecommunication equipment, industrial equipment, and consumer electronics.

Edited February 11 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

Well I do declare. The poor B2B would be on and off all night. 

 

She offered her honour, he honoured her offer, and all night long it was honour and offer.

Edited February 11 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

40 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Is that the only difference between isolated and non-isolated? Since both the engine and domestic batteries have to be grounded to the boat shell anyway, then what's the point of separate ground connections on the B2B?

It allows you to charge a battery with a different negative potential. For example, you have a 12v alternator and starter battery. You have a 24v domestic system (2 x 12v batteries in series). You can use 2 B2Bs, one connected to the 0 and 12v points of the 24v battery as usual, and the isolated one’s negative connected to the 12v battery mid-point, and its positive to the 24v. Thus charging a 24v system from a 12v system.

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

She offered her honour, he honoured her offer, and all night long it was honour and offer.

 

 

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

She offered her honour, he honoured her offer and all night long he was on her and off her. 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Twins ?

[magnetman]

I was confused when you said 'it was honour and offer'. Did 'it' have gender assignment issues. 

 

Being rather naive around this I had assumed it was a 'he' in this situation but I can see your use of the word 'it' may be more PC in these times of gender fluidity. 

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Radio Spares seem to think there are safety considerations

 

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/power-supplies-transformers/voltage-converters/dc-dc-converters/

 

"

DC-DC Converters

Isolated DC-DC converters convert a source of direct current (DC) from one voltage to another and contain an electrical barrier between the input and output to improve safety. They are suitable for a range of applications, including telecommunication equipment, industrial equipment, and consumer electronics.

Because in the general (non-boat) case there may be significant differences between the different grounds. Not usually an issue for boats though... 😉

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Because in the general (non-boat) case there may be significant differences between the different grounds. Not usually an issue for boats though... 😉

Well in general terms it can be an issue. For example we have a BMV712 battery monitor. It is connected to 0v at the shunt. We also have a BMS. It is connected to 0v at the cells, so not quite the same place. Then there is a lead taking VE.Direct data from the BMV to the BMS, including a 0v line. So that immediately creates an alternative current path for the 0v current. Certainly the difference in cable sections (and hence resistance) between the battery 0v line (70mm^2) and the BMV data line (very thin) means that the dc current flowing through that thin wire, and thence through another thin wire between BMS and cell 0v, wont be much. But then again “not much” of 200A can still be a fair bit. But if you introduce some slightly corroded or bad connection in the 70mm^2 wire, you could end up with large currents flowing through the thin wires and much smoke and melting ensuing. So I used an optoisolator to ensure there wasn’t a secondary 0v current path.

[magnetman]

 

So why does the Victron 30A B2B have an isolated option but the 50A version doesn't? 

 

It can't be an oversight because the 30A version is available with or without. 

 

If anything one could think that the higher current device might want it more than the lower current device. 

 

Is it something which adds to the cost significantly ? 

 

 

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

Well currently I have nothing bar an unconnected alternator on the boat. So it's a reasonable question what to install.

But the choice seems to be between a costly professional install, a simple DIY hybrid system with a long bit of wire, getting up to speed with some sort of self-developed electronic control system or sticking with lead acid, the 2nd and 3rd options apparently falling foul of battery manufacturers' instructions, relevant standards and insurance requirements. Hence, slightly reluctantly thinking of heading down the LA route.

 

Incidentally, have any of the hire boat firms gone down the lithium route, or are they all sticking with tried and tested technology, widely understood and easily fixed if something goes wrong?

Carbon lead might be the way forward? I have a load of Lifepo4s on board, but they are charged by solar and purpose designed battery chargers.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

32 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

So why does the Victron 30A B2B have an isolated option but the 50A version doesn't? 

 

It can't be an oversight because the 30A version is available with or without. 

 

If anything one could think that the higher current device might want it more than the lower current device. 

 

Is it something which adds to the cost significantly ? 

 

 

The isolated 30A is slightly more expensive than the non-isolated, but a low percentage difference. The impression I got from the Victron literature was that in some installations, bigger boats than we usually deal with on CWDF, it can be useful. Read this a while back, so don't recall the reasons.

Perhaps the isolated 50A hasn't been announced yet?

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

Heavens, just imagine. If one were to engage in "affairs of the heart" on the boat it could be a nightmare.

Especially with me being so handsome and charming and everything. And constantly getting pestered by lady boaters vying for my attention and wanting sexual favours. 

Well I do declare. The poor B2B would be on and off all night.  

Victron better get their act together or there'll be a warranty claim on their hands.

 

Brilliant Tony I can vouch for everything you say as I havemet you, now where is the promised bung?

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

... where is the promised bung?

 

Is your Boat sinking ?

[peterboat]

On using an MPPT controller to charge a Lithium battery my midnite controller is designed for wind turbines as well as solar, they do however do a solar only controller so clearly there is some difference in the internals? But what that is I have no idea except for price 

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Is your Boat sinking ?

My feet are feeling a bit soggy 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well in general terms it can be an issue. For example we have a BMV712 battery monitor. It is connected to 0v at the shunt. We also have a BMS. It is connected to 0v at the cells, so not quite the same place. Then there is a lead taking VE.Direct data from the BMV to the BMS, including a 0v line. So that immediately creates an alternative current path for the 0v current. Certainly the difference in cable sections (and hence resistance) between the battery 0v line (70mm^2) and the BMV data line (very thin) means that the dc current flowing through that thin wire, and thence through another thin wire between BMS and cell 0v, wont be much. But then again “not much” of 200A can still be a fair bit. But if you introduce some slightly corroded or bad connection in the 70mm^2 wire, you could end up with large currents flowing through the thin wires and much smoke and melting ensuing. So I used an optoisolator to ensure there wasn’t a secondary 0v current path.

 

You might want to bone up on Ohm's Law. Unless the voltage difference is huge -- which it won't be in the case you mentioned -- you won't get large currents flowing down thin wires because of their resistance.

 

No problem with having ground isolation if you want to, but it's extremely unlikely that it'll ever be needed in a typical boat.

 

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

So why does the Victron 30A B2B have an isolated option but the 50A version doesn't? 

 

It can't be an oversight because the 30A version is available with or without. 

 

If anything one could think that the higher current device might want it more than the lower current device. 

 

Is it something which adds to the cost significantly ? 

 

 

It increases cost and lowers efficiency, so isolation shouldn't be used unless there's a case where it might actually be needed -- for example a large boat with multiple high-current sources and loads a long way apart, significant voltage drops in the cabling and voltage differences between different grounds. Victron make isolated DC-DC converters for cases like this, as their literature suggests.

 

However this is very unlikely to happen in a normal narrowboat (or wideboat) installation -- and not even in an electric/hybrid boat, non-isolated DC-DC converters are just fine... 😉

Edited February 11 by IanD