Looking for fuses

[Jason322]

Hi there I have a Princess 33 1979 and none of the electric or manual bilge pumps are working. I have 3 fore mid and rear and the fore flip switch is not working and also the fuse to that pump appears to not be working. I’m going to replace the flip switch and fuse but can’t find fuses on the back of power unit. Anyone know where bilge fuses may be found ? Also any idea if this is linked to manual hand bilge pump not working? 
 

thanks 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Welcome to the forum.

Do you have a hand held multimeter, able to read volts? Rather than randomly replace components, which can get expensive fast, it is better to fault find systematically. That's only possible if you are able to take voltage and perhaps current readings.

As far as fuse locations are concerned, you'll need to search them out. It is possible that fuses for the bilge pumps are located close to the batteries, rather than the switch panel. These may be used to allow the bilge pumps to run when the main battery isolator switch is off.

[BEngo]

The manual hand pump should have no connection to the electrics.  If it doesn't work you will need to find and dismantle and clean it.  Check also that its overboard discharge is clear.

 

I think the fuses for your bilge pumps, (and everything else) may be integral with the switches.  Each switch is a circuit breaker. They all appear to be in the OFF position.

 

The Rule a matic device pictured is an automatic switch to start the bilge pump if the water level rises.  They are renowned for failing.  I suspect this has failed and the pumps have run dry and also failed.

Doesxeverything else (horn etc.on the switch panel work? If not a main fuse, which should be located near the battery has possibly failed, or the battery isolator is OFF.

 

Do you have a multimeter? If not, you should  get one.  They are not dear and are essential for fault finding electrical kit.  Then check the voltages at the pump connections with the bilge pump switches ON.  Come back with the results.

N

[agg221]

Hi Jason,

 

Aware this may be a somewhat stressful time - finding that none of the bilge pumps are working suggests you may have water onboard and want it out, and when that isn't happening it is never good (been there, done that). The odds of someone on this forum having exactly the same boat are limited, and even if they did, bear in mind that on a 45yr old boat the odds of it having been changed from how it was built are high, so it is usually a case of systematic fault-finding, rather than a simple answer. For this reason, you are likely to get asked lots of questions. It may not be immediately obvious why you are being asked certain things, but it is worth going with it and answering - they will be someone following a train of thought to try and help you. Also, you have figured how to post photos to the forum - this is excellent as they show so much more than words can.

 

Jen has already made a good start. I will throw in a few more:

1. I can see lights on your panel. That means power is getting to the panel. Bilge pumps however may not be running off the same battery as everything else. As Jen mentions, they are sometimes configured to run when the boat has been left and the main panel turned off. That means they may be wired to the starter battery and then through the panel. The idea is that the pumps will run on the float switch even when the main battery isolator is turned off. It can be confusing, because it looks like the panel is working but the bilge pumps won't, which appears to be your situation.

2. Can you trace the wires from bilge pump directly to a battery? If so, is there a fuse in the loop? Is it the leisure battery or the starter battery? If it is the starter battery, is it still charged or has it run flat (ie will the boat engine start off it)? You could get the symptoms you describe if the starter battery is completely flat but the leisure battery is still charged. If so, you could temporarily run the bilge pump off the leisure battery.

3. I concur with Nigel and Jen that a multimeter is a pretty important piece of kit to have, but would add that making up some extension leads with crocodile clips for it is also very worthwhile for fault tracing, but for now, if you don't have one, what happens if you take each of the bilge pumps in turn and connect them directly over a known charged battery? I agree with Nigel that the float switches fail, but usually they fail in the 'off' position so the pump fails to turn on. It would be unusual for them to fail in the 'on' position and burn out the pump. The pump may well have two pairs of wires - a pair that go to and from the battery and the other pair to and from a bypass switch (on the panel). The idea is that the pump is permanently connected but will switch on and off automatically on the float switch or can be manually started by connecting the other pair of wires. With the main wires connected across the battery, If you either manually rock the float switch which Nigel has already described or touch the other pair of wires together, does it start up?

4. Photos of the electric pumps would be useful.

5. A photo of the hand pump would be useful.

 

Alec

Edited December 30, 2023 by agg221

[1st ade]

3 hours ago, Jason322 said:

the fore flip switch is not working

Are they actually circuit breakers and that one will not stay set (as it's overloaded?)?

[Jason322]

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

The manual hand pump should have no connection to the electrics.  If it doesn't work you will need to find and dismantle and clean it.  Check also that its overboard discharge is clear.

 

I think the fuses for your bilge pumps, (and everything else) may be integral with the switches.  Each switch is a circuit breaker. They all appear to be in the OFF position.

 

The Rule a matic device pictured is an automatic switch to start the bilge pump if the water level rises.  They are renowned for failing.  I suspect this has failed and the pumps have run dry and also failed.

Doesxeverything else (horn etc.on the switch panel work? If not a main fuse, which should be located near the battery has possibly failed, or the battery isolator is OFF.

 

Do you have a multimeter? If not, you should  get one.  They are not dear and are essential for fault finding electrical kit.  Then check the voltages at the pump connections with the bilge pump switches ON.  Come back with the results.

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Welcome to the forum.

Do you have a hand held multimeter, able to read volts? Rather than randomly replace components, which can get expensive fast, it is better to fault find systematically. That's only possible if you are able to take voltage and perhaps current readings.

As far as fuse locations are concerned, you'll need to search them out. It is possible that fuses for the bilge pumps are located close to the batteries, rather than the switch panel. These may be used to allow the bilge pumps to run when the main battery isolator switch is off.

Thank you I’ll check if there are fuses near the battery and pick up multi meter as this sounds like important kit to have . 
 

 

 

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

Will pick up a multimeter. I wasn’t aware that they maybe wired to a different battery source. When I brought the boat had no idea what a bilge pump was until I check water in bottom of boat which was flooded so I wondered if the water reached the pump and blew it? 
will check voltage and get back to you. Just can’t see why manual hand pump is also not pumping water out but supposed these are two separate issues 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

When you say manual bilge pump, do you mean a bilge pump you need to pump by hand like these, or an electric bilge pump that is turned on by a manual flick of a switch?

5 minutes ago, Jason322 said:

When I brought the boat had no idea what a bilge pump was until I check water in bottom of boat which was flooded so I wondered if the water reached the pump and blew it?

Most bilge pumps are designed to survive immersion. If they aren't underwater, could you post some pictures? Also pictures of the battery areas. May help with diagnosis.

[Jason322]

2 hours ago, agg221 said:

Hi Jason,

 

Aware this may be a somewhat stressful time - finding that none of the bilge pumps are working suggests you may have water onboard and want it out, and when that isn't happening it is never good (been there, done that). The odds of someone on this forum having exactly the same boat are limited, and even if they did, bear in mind that on a 45yr old boat the odds of it having been changed from how it was built are high, so it is usually a case of systematic fault-finding, rather than a simple answer. For this reason, you are likely to get asked lots of questions. It may not be immediately obvious why you are being asked certain things, but it is worth going with it and answering - they will be someone following a train of thought to try and help you. Also, you have figured how to post photos to the forum - this is excellent as they show so much more than words can.

 

Jen has already made a good start. I will throw in a few more:

1. I can see lights on your panel. That means power is getting to the panel. Bilge pumps however may not be running off the same battery as everything else. As Jen mentions, they are sometimes configured to run when the boat has been left and the main panel turned off. That means they may be wired to the starter battery and then through the panel. The idea is that the pumps will run on the float switch even when the main battery isolator is turned off. It can be confusing, because it looks like the panel is working but the bilge pumps won't, which appears to be your situation.

2. Can you trace the wires from bilge pump directly to a battery? If so, is there a fuse in the loop? Is it the leisure battery or the starter battery? If it is the starter battery, is it still charged or has it run flat (ie will the boat engine start off it)? You could get the symptoms you describe if the starter battery is completely flat but the leisure battery is still charged. If so, you could temporarily run the bilge pump off the leisure battery.

3. I concur with Nigel and Jen that a multimeter is a pretty important piece of kit to have, but would add that making up some extension leads with crocodile clips for it is also very worthwhile for fault tracing, but for now, if you don't have one, what happens if you take each of the bilge pumps in turn and connect them directly over a known charged battery? I agree with Nigel that the float switches fail, but usually they fail in the 'off' position so the pump fails to turn on. It would be unusual for them to fail in the 'on' position and burn out the pump. The pump may well have two pairs of wires - a pair that go to and from the battery and the other pair to and from a bypass switch (on the panel). The idea is that the pump is permanently connected but will switch on and off automatically on the float switch or can be manually started by connecting the other pair of wires. With the main wires connected across the battery, If you either manually rock the float switch which Nigel has already described or touch the other pair of wires together, does it start up?

4. Photos of the electric pumps would be useful.

5. A photo of the hand pump would be useful.

 

Alec

So the bilge pump at the rear works when I lift the little sensor to a certain point but this then sucks the water up but once I let go of sensor the water comes back out so does mot seem to be enough water or power to pull water out of boat the mid pump I can hear working fore pump is not . Will send pictures 

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

do you mean a bilge pump you need to pump by hand like these,

 

It is possible that the OP's boat is old enough to have a cylindrical pull and push down type pump. Whatever it is, it needs clarifying.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Jason322 said:

fore pump is not

In the picture at the top of your first post, the fore pump is switched off at the isolator. The mid and stern bilge pump switches are on.

[magnetman]

It sounds like not much water in there. How far up the pump motor body does it go? 

 

The Whale Supersub is quite a good little bilge pump if you need to replace. I found that the joker valve (rubber non return valve) is a bit hard so I removed it and it works better. Not seen a joker valve on other bilge pumps. I guess this is for situations where the pump outlet may become submerged causing back flooding. 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, Jason322 said:

So the bilge pump at the rear works when I lift the little sensor to a certain point but this then sucks the water up but once I let go of sensor the water comes back out so does mot seem to be enough water or power to pull water out of boat

Can the boat engine be started? Have you tried the bilge pumps with the engine running? Could be a near flat battery perhaps.

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, Jason322 said:

So the bilge pump at the rear works when I lift the little sensor to a certain point but this then sucks the water up but once I let go of sensor the water comes back out so does mot seem to be enough water or power to pull water out of boat the mid pump I can hear working fore pump is not . Will send pictures 

 

Sounds like not much water so the float switch is not activating. 

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Jason322 said:

So the bilge pump at the rear works when I lift the little sensor to a certain point but this then sucks the water up but once I let go of sensor the water comes back out so does mot seem to be enough water or power to pull water out of boat the mid pump I can hear working fore pump is not . Will send pictures 

 

How much water are you talking about? Once the bilge pump  impeller starts to ventilate because it has pulled most of the water out of the bilge, it will still run, but stop moving water. Most of the outlet pipe will be full of water, so when the pump stops, the pipe full of water flows back into the bilge. Being a sea type boat you may have big swan-neck hidden under the cabin lining so more water that normally seen on a narrowboat may run back down the hose.

[magnetman]

 

It is normal for a standard bilge pump without a non return valve to discharge water back into the Boat when it is turned orf. A bilge pump is a centrifugal pump rather than a positive displacement pump so any water present in the hose itself will go back into the bilge unless there is a non return or joker valve. 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Sounds like not much water so the float switch is not activating. 

 

I think we agree on that possibility until the OP clarifies.

[magnetman]

 

It can also be quite noisy when this happens which could lead to the assumption that something may be wrong. 

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think we agree on that possibility until the OP clarifies.

 

It was when they said "when I lift the little sensor to a certain point but this then sucks the water up but once I let go of sensor the water comes back out"

Sounds like a float switch. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by magnetman

[agg221]

To reiterate the point made by other posters above, some water running back down the hose when you turn the pump off is quite normal. The pump can only work so far down - expect a bit of water to be left after the pump has removed all it can, say half an inch. The last bit that the pump has pulled up is still in the tube which can't push air so the water sits there just above the impeller and when the pump is switched off it runs back out. If you want to get it truly dry then you need to do the last bit with a sponge and bucket (really dry will need rags or nappies).

 

The good news is that this is suggesting there is not too much wrong and the water is not too deep. If you follow the other points made above through you should get there. Water can look a lot worse than it is - I noticed water in the bilge of our boat last time I visited, spread across the back third of the boat. In practice, this turned out to be about 5 litres in total. It is still annoying. A photo of the manual pump and a summary of the way in which it is not working would also be useful (ie is it seized, works freely but doesn't pump, feels really slack as you pump it etc) as that would be a handy last resort to have working. I have one for this reason.

 

Alec

[magnetman]

Yes also someone recently pointed out that one can get cordless wet and dry vacuum cleaners. They don't hold a lot of water but the Makita, which might be interesting for someone who already has other Makita tools, seems to hold 7.5 litres. 

 

Other less expensive items available. 

 

 

 

And of course mains wet n dry vacs have quite a large capacity. 

[agg221]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes also someone recently pointed out that one can get cordless wet and dry vacuum cleaners. They don't hold a lot of water but the Makita, which might be interesting for someone who already has other Makita tools, seems to hold 7.5 litres. 

 

Other less expensive items available. 

 

 

 

And of course mains wet n dry vacs have quite a large capacity. 

That is a really interesting thought, for a man who has on several occasions manually baled the bottom of the boat by reaching under the engine bed with a sponge. When it's frozen outside it is not much warmer just inside the hull and this always seems to happen in winter!

 

Alec

[magnetman]

Yes. 

 

This one looks good. 

Brushless which presumably means there is no brush to sweep up the dust. 

 

Could be a nice article I think. 

 

https://www.toucantools.co.uk/makita_dvc750lz_18v_lxt_brushless_7_5_litres_l_class_vacuum_wetdry_vacuum_cleaner_body_only.html

 

 

 

(closer inspection reveals that the 'tank capacity wet' is 4.5 litres. The 7.5 refers to dust capacity. 

[Jason322]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

In the picture at the top of your first post, the fore pump is switched off at the isolator. The mid and stern bilge pump switches are on.

Thanks Jen yes that’s correct because when I switch the fore pump switch on it will eventually trip itself off . And there is a manual switch for all three pumps the fore bilge will not come on the other two do come on but do not seem to suck up water. There is a manual hand pump like a gusher pump that when you try to use seems to just pump air and no water 

[agg221]

3 minutes ago, Jason322 said:

Thanks Jen yes that’s correct because when I switch the fore pump switch on it will eventually trip itself off . And there is a manual switch for all three pumps the fore bilge will not come on the other two do come on but do not seem to suck up water. There is a manual hand pump like a gusher pump that when you try to use seems to just pump air and no water 

How deep is the water you are trying to pump in the two sections where the pumps do come on but do not pump water? Are the pumps located right at the lowest point?

Any chance of a photo of the hand pump? There are several sorts and there are different possibilities as to what the issue may be.

 

Alec

[Jason322]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Can the boat engine be started? Have you tried the bilge pumps with the engine running? Could be a near flat battery perhaps.

Yes all other electronics work and engine starts so don’t think it’s the battery. Picture of pump added

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Jason322 said:

Yes all other electronics work and engine starts so don’t think it’s the battery. Picture of pump added

 

 

Well - thats an unusual bilge pump !