Have Calor done a u-turn re smaller bottles?

[Naughty Cal]

17 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

In my part of the world you take your bottle to the local fuel station and get it filled. I have a 12kg bottle and i put about 10 euros at a time. Guy did tell me that the pump shuts off at 80% full, no idea how it knows that but LPG cars get refilled easy enough.

We use refillable lpg bottles on the van. Works out a damn sight cheaper than Calor, Flo gas or Camping Gaz.

 

Had to buy the Gaslow bottles and filler first of course. They have already more than paid for themselves. 

 

Each bottle holds 22 litres (at 80% full) and we carry two. 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

They do indeed .................

 

Calor Essentials 0.75m (30") POL x POL Standard Hose | Hoses and Pigtails | Calor Gas Appliances

 

 

 

Hi Jim, no all our pigtails are fitted with non-return valves as filling bottles this way is not allowed. Thank you for using Q&A.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, MJG said:

 

Hi Jim, no all our pigtails are fitted with non-return valves as filling bottles this way is not allowed. Thank you for using Q&A.

 

This was quoted last time this was discussed - but if you buy one you will see it has no valves.

I contacted one of their distributors and asked the question, (I posted the reply here), and they said they had no valves and were just 'straight thru' hoses.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

This was quoted last time this was discussed - but if you buy one you will see it has no valves.

I contacted one of their distributors and asked the question, (I posted the reply here), and they said they had no valves and were just 'straight thru' hoses.

 

But none the less it is still not allowed under the terms of the cylinder rental agreement. For good reason, not least being self fillers have no way to check the integrity of the cylinders which Calor do.

 

 

Even Cylinders designed to be refilled have a recommend life span.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MJG said:

 

But none the less it is still not allowed under the terms of the cylinder rental agreement. For good reason, not least being self fillers have no way to check the integrity of the cylinders which Calor do.

 

I agree that it is not allowed, but neither are so many things, yet folks do them.

 

I think that the Calor cylinders are only subject to re-test every 10 years (my diving cylinders have to be tested every 30 months) and the last test date / next test date is shown on the cylinder so if it is 'within test' then it SHOULD be OK.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I agree that it is not allowed, but neither are so many things, yet folks do them.

 

I think that the Calor cylinders are only subject to re-test every 10 years (my diving cylinders have to be tested every 30 months) and the last test date / next test date is shown on the cylinder so if it is 'within test' then it SHOULD be OK.

 

I personally don't think any savings are worth it.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MJG said:

 

I personally don't think any savings are worth it.

 

I reckon the risk is lower than driving on a motorway.

Each to their own !

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I reckon the risk is lower than driving on a motorway.

Each to their own !

 

Which is fine, as long of course you don't injure someone else.

 

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, MJG said:

 

But none the less it is still not allowed under the terms of the cylinder rental agreement. For good reason, not least being self fillers have no way to check the integrity of the cylinders which Calor do.

 

 

Even Cylinders designed to be refilled have a recommend life span.

Our Gaslow cylinders will go back to Gaslow at ten years old.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Our Gaslow cylinders will go back to Gaslow at ten years old.

 

SafeFill are (from memory) the same.

[magnetman]

"will go back to" is an interesting concept. 

 

Do they make it worthwhile ? Maybe a refund of some sort. 

 

If not it seems far more likely that older refillable gas bottles would just be put on eBay or similar and sold to someone who isn't bothered. 

 

 

[Jon57]

4 hours ago, MJG said:

 

SafeFill are (from memory) the same.

The valve is guaranteed for 2 years the bottle 10years. Supposed to have it tested but safefill  don’t offer this service. Mine is well over 10yrs old and still ok. 

[magnetman]

And I was like "BOOM"

 

Isn't it. 

 

 

[Chris Lowe]

Don't think I ever want to play with gas, I did once put my own gas boiler in, but had a proper gas engineer comission it.

[MtB]

53 minutes ago, Chris Lowe said:

Don't think I ever want to play with gas, I did once put my own gas boiler in, but had a proper gas engineer comission it.

 

I play with it every day and have done for years. Decades actually.

 

It comfortably funds playing with my boats and drinking beer. Cheers! 

 

 

 

 

 

BOOM

 

Oops....

 

 

 

[Tacet]

22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You can get them virtually full by using a bigger cylinder (I use a 47kg) but, as the pressure drops in the big cylinder after a couple of refills the amoubt transferred does reduce.

The pressure in the cylinder remains constant (unless there is a temperature change) when both gas and liquid fuel is present. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

The pressure in the cylinder remains constant (unless there is a temperature change) when both gas and liquid fuel is present. 

 

Agreed, but try convincing Alan of this!

 

The pressure does however, change by surprisingly large amounts for small changes in the temperature of the bottle. 

[Paul C]

Pressure has nothing to do with it, when you're pouring liquid from a big bottle into a small bottle. The small bottle can get (over)full, simply from there being more liquid than it can hold, poured in from above. (The big bottle could be almost empty once the pour is complete, what's the pressure now? Is it even relevant???)

[magnetman]

There is nowhere for the displaced air to go. An empty bottle must have air in it. 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Pressure has nothing to do with it, when you're pouring liquid from a big bottle into a small bottle. The small bottle can get (over)full, simply from there being more liquid than it can hold, poured in from above. (The big bottle could be almost empty once the pour is complete, what's the pressure now? Is it even relevant???)

 

Cobblers.

 

To 'pour' liquid into a bottle the gas in the bottle has to get out somehow. There is no vent on a Calor gas bottle to do this so the vapour pressure prevents liquid entering.

 

 

 

 

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Cobblers.

 

To 'pour' liquid into a bottle the gas in the bottle has to get out somehow. There is no vent on a Calor gas bottle to do this so the vapour pressure prevents liquid entering.

 

 

 

 

The vapour goes to the top, which will be the big bottle.

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Agreed, but try convincing Alan of this!

 

The pressure does however, change by surprisingly large amounts for small changes in the temperature of the bottle. 

 

Boyles Law.

Gas laws have to be leaned, understood and used as part of the diving qualifications.

 

The temperature WILL change as you remove the gas from a cylinder which is why you can often see 'rings' of frost around a propane cylinder as you are decanting it (or even during normal use)

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Boyles Law.

Gas laws have to be leaned, understood and used as part of the diving qualifications.

 

The temperature WILL change as you remove the gas from a cylinder which is why you can often see 'rings' of frost around a propane cylinder as you are decanting it (or even during normal use)

 

No application of Boyle's law in this context. Boyle's law relates to volume and pressure of gases at a constant temperature.

 

If you draw off gas from an LPG cylinder it will indeed cool due to the latent heat of vaporisation.  And the boiling point and pressure decrease with temperature.  But leave it to regain its original temperature and the original pressure will be restored, albeit with a reduced volume of liquid.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

No application of Boyle's law in this context. Boyle's law relates to volume and pressure of gases at a constant temperature.

 

Also, it relates to a fixed mass of gas.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

If you draw off gas from an LPG cylinder it will indeed cool due to the latent heat of vaporisation.  And the boiling point and pressure decrease with temperature.  But leave it to regain its original temperature and the original pressure will be restored, albeit with a reduced volume of liquid.

 

At last. Some else who understands this stuff! 

 

 

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

To 'pour' liquid into a bottle the gas in the bottle has to get out somehow. There is no vent on a Calor gas bottle to do this so the vapour pressure prevents liquid entering.

Unlike transferring (say) water between two bottles, no air needs to transfer from the lower bottle to the upper. Since both bottles already contain gaseous lpg, there is no (significant quantity of) air in the system. As you pour liquid from the upper bottle the connecting pipe fills with liquid. The increased hydrostatic head of liquid raises the pressure slightly in the lower bottle, which causes some of the gas therein to condense. This reduces the volume causing more liquid to flow. At the same time the reduction in liquid volume in the upper bottle cause the pressure to reduce slightly, and some liquid vapourises to fill the space. Net result is an increase in liquid in the lower bottle and a reduction in the upper bottle. 

The phase changes will cause the lower bottle to get warmer and the upper bottle to cool. The rate this heat can be transferred into/out of the bottles will determine the rate of liquid transfer.