"I hate these things", he said.

[Tacet]

19 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Nevertheless there is a particular contempt for widebeams amongst many narrowboat owners and contrary to what most of them will tell you, in my experience it started long before overcrowding on the canals became a real issue. Nearly 20 years ago I was told that my boat wasn't a boat and was just a floating flat and on another occasion told that I couldn't go anywhere on it. I've taken my boat on more of waterways than most narrow boat owners I meet including tideways - so I guess it is a boat after all

 

How many waterways has Blackrose travelled in the last 10 years?

[Bee]

Well, I don't like the fat narrowboat ones, I think they are a result of lazy boat design, or in fact not much design at all. Most narrowboats are (loosely) based on an existing historic design, there is not much history of wide boats on English canals to design a half decent `Replica` from so what you end up with is a boxy thing with all the grace of a brick built with little shape and as cheaply as possible. People will say that it would cost far too much to build some shape into them, OK, it would cost more but decent side decks for ease of use and safety and better ends is not hard to do. Just to say, my own boat is `Wide` and a damned hard thing it was to fit out because it is all curves but somewhere between the two extremes it should be possible to do it better. Now where`s my pencil and a sheet of paper, 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Bee said:

Well, I don't like the fat narrowboat ones, I think they are a result of lazy boat design, or in fact not much design at all. Most narrowboats are (loosely) based on an existing historic design, there is not much history of wide boats on English canals to design a half decent `Replica` from so what you end up with is a boxy thing with all the grace of a brick built with little shape and as cheaply as possible. People will say that it would cost far too much to build some shape into them, OK, it would cost more but decent side decks for ease of use and safety and better ends is not hard to do. Just to say, my own boat is `Wide` and a damned hard thing it was to fit out because it is all curves but somewhere between the two extremes it should be possible to do it better. Now where`s my pencil and a sheet of paper, 

 

Agreed. 

 

It's not fatties per se most of us object to, its "narrowboat style" fatties specifically. 

 

 

Here is a sublimely pretty fattie (in my opinion):

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

My country estate Boat (This was a number of yars ago. About 20 and its still got the same paint topsides)

 

 

40ftx9ft. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by magnetman

[IanD]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Nevertheless there is a particular contempt for widebeams amongst many narrowboat owners and contrary to what most of them will tell you, in my experience it started long before overcrowding on the canals became a real issue. Nearly 20 years ago I was told that my boat wasn't a boat and was just a floating flat and on another occasion told that I couldn't go anywhere on it. I've taken my boat on more of waterways than most narrow boat owners I meet including tideways - so I guess it is a boat after all.

 

The odd thing is that so many narrowboaters talk as if the proportions of their boats are somehow "normal". Well yes that's true on canals with narrow locks but in the wider world of boats it's narrowboats that are the oddities. So when I hear people slagging off other types of craft, to me it just confirms the parochial mindset of some narrow boaters.

 

 

It's not just overcrowding on the canals, because there are plenty of narrowboaters also causing problems.

 

It's similar to the "Bully XL" issue, some owners protesting about the ban on their dogs (which with less than 1% of the population have been responsible for 70% of dog-kills-man incidents in recent years) by saying that theirs is a softy and properly trained and would never bite *anybody*, not like all those other owners of badly-trained dogs -- while ignoring the fact that a nasty aggressive Pekinese is rather less capable of tearing somebody's throat out if things do turn nasty than a 60kg bundle of unstoppable muscle.

 

So when wideboaters misbehave or bend/break the rules or moor like selfish idiots, the impact is bigger and more obvious than if narrowboaters do the same, and so attracts more attention and contempt and abuse.

 

If you're a considerate wideboater (like @blackrose , I assume...) then you might justifiably complain about this, but then you're in the same position as the responsible Bully XL owners -- damned for owning something which causes more and worse trouble when misused, and lumped in with the bad guys.

 

But don't blame narrowboaters for this, blame the idiot wideboaters who behave in a way which encourages this contempt.

 

Same issue as for "real CCers" -- don't blame HMers for any bad feeling between the different groups of boaters, blame the selfish CMers who abuse the rules and make life less pleasant for other boaters, but call themselves "Continuous Cruisers".

 

In other words, blame the selfish a*seholes who cause such issues and division, not the people who complain because they're adversely affected by them and then lump good apples in with the bad ones... 😉

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[Stilllearning]

14 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I've had shiny narrowboaters refuse to share locks, and been sworn at for not waiting for someone to share with when they were out of sight round a corner. I've been grumbled at for being a single hander and moaned at for wasting time tying my boat up at locks by people standing and watching. And cursed for speeding past badly tied up boats at 2mph. It happens to us all, thin boats , fat boats, on canals and rivers.

You just have to live with it. Most of us are quite pleasant most of the time.

I think I had all of those in my 25 years of boating too.

 

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Nevertheless there is a particular contempt for widebeams amongst many narrowboat owners and contrary to what most of them will tell you, in my experience it started long before overcrowding on the canals became a real issue. Nearly 20 years ago I was told that my boat wasn't a boat and was just a floating flat and on another occasion told that I couldn't go anywhere on it. I've taken my boat on more of waterways than most narrow boat owners I meet including tideways - so I guess it is a boat after all.

 

The odd thing is that so many narrowboaters talk as if the proportions of their boats are somehow "normal". Well yes that's true on canals with narrow locks but in the wider world of boats it's narrowboats that are the oddities. So when I hear people slagging off other types of craft, to me it just confirms the parochial mindset of some narrow boaters.

 

 

 

I hear you - you may recall I've had the pleasure of steering your boat on two occasions - it was a joy to handle and (to my eye) a very attractive vessel as well as a very practical one. 

[magnetman]

I know wide beans are pretty terrible but comparing them with the dangerous dogs is a little extreme. 

 

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I know wide beans are pretty terrible but comparing them with the dangerous dogs is a little extreme. 

 

 

You're misunderstanding what I said, which is that if you have something which is capable of being more bothersome to others -- boat or dog -- and there are some idiots who own the same thing and stir up trouble by being irresponsible, it shouldn't be surprising that you get tarred with the same brush even though you're innocent -- the Bully XL issue is in the news right now so everyone knows about it, which is why I used it.

 

And that victim blaming is the wrong response -- blame the idiots who cause the problem, not those who complain about it... 😉

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Why would anyone mention the Bully XL dogs in a thread about mildly irritating wide bean canal Boats? 

 

There aren't really any 'victims' are there? Are people being harmed by wide beans? 

 

I know they are a pita but I don't see harm and victims in this scenario. 

 

Maybe I am Boating in the wrong places! 

 

News Alert : Man found squashed between lock gates on tranquil northern canal. Several dogs discovered wandering around a nearby field. 

 

 Police say they have no leads.

Someone on facebook said it was a wide beam owner.

 

[Mike Todd]

17 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I think this will have been it. He thought a narrowboat would have waited for him to arrive and share the lock. On arrival he then realised why you didn't wait hence his annoyance at you for not being a narrowboat! 

 

But a significant proportion of NBers are miserable whiney old gits for whom nothing is ever right or good enough. I think you've just met one. 

 

I don't think I've met one of this type on a fattie yet.

 

Nah - their sense of entitlement means that engaging in such behaviour is beneath their dignity! Best left to the peasants.

 

(I suppose I'd better add a smiley for the humour-challenged!)

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Agreed. 

 

It's not fatties per se most of us object to, its "narrowboat style" fatties specifically. 

 

 

Here is a sublimely pretty fattie (in my opinion):

 

 

 

 

This one, Angel Hardy was always my favourite widebeam boat.

 

 

One of the best replica Dutch barges we saw on our travels with really friendly owners.

 

Had a home mooring on the Trent but was often cruising the coast and rivers. We saw them all over the place.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Naughty Cal

[IanD]

37 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Why would anyone mention the Bully XL dogs in a thread about mildly irritating wide bean canal Boats? 

 

There aren't really any 'victims' are there? Are people being harmed by wide beans? 

 

I know they are a pita but I don't see harm and victims in this scenario. 

 

Maybe I am Boating in the wrong places! 

 

News Alert : Man found squashed between lock gates on tranquil northern canal. Several dogs discovered wandering around a nearby field. 

 

 Police say they have no leads.

Someone on facebook said it was a wide beam owner.

 

"Victim blaming" is a widely used and understood term for a lot of what is going on in this thread and elsewhere on CWDF -- trying to divert the blame from those causing the problem to those impacted by it.

 

If badly moored/steered widebeams weren't becoming an increasing PITA for other boaters, there wouldn't be so many complaints about them.

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Well, I don't like the fat narrowboat ones, I think they are a result of lazy boat design, or in fact not much design at all. Most narrowboats are (loosely) based on an existing historic design, there is not much history of wide boats on English canals to design a half decent `Replica` from so what you end up with is a boxy thing with all the grace of a brick built with little shape and as cheaply as possible. People will say that it would cost far too much to build some shape into them, OK, it would cost more but decent side decks for ease of use and safety and better ends is not hard to do. Just to say, my own boat is `Wide` and a damned hard thing it was to fit out because it is all curves but somewhere between the two extremes it should be possible to do it better. Now where`s my pencil and a sheet of paper, 

Not entirely true - there were plenty of wide beams on the canals built for them - eg Liverpool Flats/ Short Boats. One problem in trying to build a liveaboard floating apartment on this template is that they were very low headroom, and conversions have generally struggled to get much window above the gunnels. They are also short which means that the acreage advantage is diminished.

 

One of the factors that is often forgotten when considering whether or not a particular wide design is 'suitable' for a given canal is the above-water profile, not just the waterline beam. It also seems to me that most of the modern wide beams are even more boxy than NBs which leads to issues (as and when they actually move) with the profile. The difficulty is that dimensions other than length and beam are harder to define in ways that could be enforced.

[magnetman]

Just now, IanD said:

"Victim blaming" is a widely used and understood term for a lot of what is going on in thois thread and elsewhere on CWDF -- trying to divert the blame from those causing the problem to those impacted by it.

 

yes but there are no victims. If someone has a wider Boat than you it doesn't actually cause harm. 

 

It might be mildly irritating or a nuisance but is there actually any harm being done? 

 

Surely to have victims you need something bad to be happening.

 

Do people really take the wide v narrow Boat thing that seriously? 

 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

37 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Why would anyone mention the Bully XL dogs in a thread about mildly irritating wide bean canal Boats? 

 

There aren't really any 'victims' are there? Are people being harmed by wide beans? 

 

I know they are a pita but I don't see harm and victims in this scenario. 

 

Maybe I am Boating in the wrong places! 

 

News Alert : Man found squashed between lock gates on tranquil northern canal. Several dogs discovered wandering around a nearby field. 

 

 Police say they have no leads.

Someone on facebook said it was a wide beam owner.

 

This is the point at which the analogy breaks  down - the issue with wide beams has largely been about whether or not they incur a greater degree of wear and tear on the infrastructure, not whether they upset or disturb other people.

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 The difficulty is that dimensions other than length and beam are harder to define in ways that could be enforced.

They did try this. The Boat must be suitable for navigation on the canal where it is intended to be used. 

 

Something like this in the Licence conditions. This includes Boats on moorings although there are some places with multi level housboats which is a little confusing.

 

 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

yes but there are no victims. If someone has a wider Boat than you it doesn't actually cause harm. 

 

It might be mildly irritating or a nuisance but is there actually any harm being done? 

 

Surely to have victims you need something bad to be happening.

 

Do people really take the wide v narrow Boat thing that seriously? 

 

 

To repeat -- if inappropriately/badly moored/steered widebeams weren't becoming an increasing PITA for other boaters, there wouldn't be so many complaints about them, on CWDF and elsewhere. The same applies to CMers.

 

Considerate widebeam owners and "real CCers" feel rightly aggrieved at being lumped in with the gits, but this is unavoidable 😞

 

5 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

This is the point at which the analogy breaks  down - the issue with wide beams has largely been about whether or not they incur a greater degree of wear and tear on the infrastructure, not whether they upset or disturb other people.

License fee discussion, yes. Alleged hatred of widebeams is what this thread was about, and upsetting/disturbing other people is precisely the issue here.

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

I think the OP is a joke. 

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

Considerate widebeam owners and "real CCers" feel rightly aggrieved at being lumped in with the gits, but this is unavoidable 😞

 

 

Thats how everything works. You get idiot motorists and non idiot motorists. An idiot motorist might even kill you one day. When walking on pavements and across roads I do not feel I am a victim as such I'm just behaving differently. 

 

In a supermarket you get idiots who block aisles and non idiots who have some consideration. 

 

I don't think the non idiot is the victim as such.

 

Its basically an idiot v non idiot issue isn't it. 

 

The problems start when the proportion of idiots rises and causes what you might call wavering non idiots to decide it is easier to just be an idiot. 

 

Then the number of idiots can rapidly increase. 

 

There still aren't any victims though. 

 

Maybe a non idiot is a victim . Hmm. Interesting idea. 

[Captain Pegg]

40 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

To repeat -- if inappropriately/badly moored/steered widebeams weren't becoming an increasing PITA for other boaters, there wouldn't be so many complaints about them, on CWDF and elsewhere. The same applies to CMers.

 

Considerate widebeam owners and "real CCers" feel rightly aggrieved at being lumped in with the gits, but this is unavoidable 😞

 

License fee discussion, yes. Alleged hatred of widebeams is what this thread was about, and upsetting/disturbing other people is precisely the issue here.

Is your evidence of increasing levels of annoyance caused by widebeams gained from personal experience or from the comments of folk on CWDF or other social media?

[Drayke]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Agreed. 

 

It's not fatties per se most of us object to, its "narrowboat style" fatties specifically. 

 

 

Here is a sublimely pretty fattie (in my opinion):

 

 

 

 

I had the pleasure of selling this one when I was at the T&K marina.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Drayke said:

I had the pleasure of selling this one when I was at the T&K marina.

 

Lovely boat - In that picture it looks very much as if it is sat moored outside (or just inside) Lemonroyd Marina where we used to moor. I seem to recall it (or a boat very much like it)  moored there when we were there in around 2011/12

 

I think that's confirmed by the sign on the bridge but I can't fully make it out.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by MJG

[Drayke]

6 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

Lovely boat - In that picture it looks very much as if it is sat moored outside Lemonroyd Marina where we used to moor. I seem to recall it (or a boat very much like it)  moored there when we were there in around 2011/12

More pictures here www.walkerboats.com

 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Drayke said:

More pictures here www.walkerboats.com

 

 

 

 

??

 

Are you sure?

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

 

If badly moored/steered widebeams weren't becoming an increasing PITA for other boaters, there wouldn't be so many complaints about them.

 

Badly moored/steered narrowboats are equally as much a PITA for other boaters.

 

Why are you not complaining about those? There are plenty of them.