Too many volts through my water pump?

[magnetman]

It does make sense to elevate the pump. Apart from anything else if done nicely then when it comes to replacement or service you can access the unit without having to lick the floor.

 

 

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

I did read your solutions. For this you need to have an alarm which works. So basically you are relying on an alarm with a battery rather than gravity to solve the problem.

 

They've always worked for me.

[magnetman]

Just now, blackrose said:

 

For me the best option is the one I described earlier. 

I know that. It isn 't what I would do but its a pretty good solution. I'm not complaining about it just pointing out in my opinion there is a better option.

 

 

[blackrose]

Just now, magnetman said:

It does make sense to elevate the pump. 

 

 

Not if it freezes and bursts it doesn't.

Just now, magnetman said:

I know that. It isn 't what I would do but its a pretty good solution. I'm not complaining about it just pointing out in my opinion there is a better option.

 

 

 

Ok. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[magnetman]

Yes but it doesn't freeze and burst. This does not in fact happen.

 

 

I think it is better to disagree about agreeing. We don't agree so it is impossible to agree to disagree.

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

I think it is better to disagree about agreeing. We don't agree so it is impossible to agree to disagree.

 

😵‍💫

[Tracy D'arth]

19 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

😵‍💫

I agree.

[ditchcrawler]

35 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Ok. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Is that Degrees below freezing 

[wakey_wake]

On 11/12/2023 at 06:40, blackrose said:

Also if you put the pump above tank height doesn't it struggle to draw water? Genuine question, I've no idea but wouldn't it start sucking air and need to be primed every time it activates?

With a Jabsco Par-max mounted near its temporary 25 litre Jerry source and 1/3 of the way up, it will self-prime by pumping the air, provided the output pressure is low enough. I suspect it's a diaphragm pump with duckbill valves.

This makes two options: usually I can switch the source Jerry without introducing much air, or

if the pump is struggling with the air bubble then I leave a tap open until it copes.

 

It isn't a problem, and I don't think a meter's head (= 1/20 of the output pressure) would make a difference on the input.

 

 

However,

On 10/12/2023 at 22:35, magnetman said:

If you put the pump above the top of the water tank the only leaks that can happen are those related to pump pressure.

In my experience the leaks which occur with water pumps are usually not on the pressure side. [...]

I like this and think I will at some point move mine upwards. Murphy's law says any leak will be when I'm absent for a while.

 

Sure it could leak either side, but on the pressure side either you're there to deal with it or the pump is off and the extent of the leak is the pressurised volume.

On the tank side, a slow leak draining the tank into the boat while I'm away seems like a semi-trashed boat; less trashed than a fire or sinking, but bad enough.

 

The alarm is a useful component but when you're away, even if it sends SMS / email, what can you do?

Containment might be large enough to hold the pressurised volume when the pump is off. It won't hold the entire tank.

It would make sense for the alarm to switch off the power to the pump in any circumstances, but this is starting to sound  quite custom.

 

(Leaks can spring in other places than the pump, but I'm hearing that this is the more frequent failure point.)

 

 

On 11/12/2023 at 13:52, Tracy D'arth said:

Mounting the pump above the tank top rather than on the floor below water level does make it more susceptible to freezing...............

 Also important to consider!

Variations are

1. routine draining, which can be done for some pumps by running dry into open taps - for short bursts and in accordance with the instructions - to help purge the water. Having a valve to admit air or alternate water source could be helpful, and this is essentially what I have and will maintain after reclaiming the bow tank. Or
2. include it in the heating (cabin heating, trace heating) and check the budgets for that or
3. mount it on a metal bracket standing from the baseplate, all thermally insulated. This might be overkill 😛 but perhaps worth considering for a new install?

Mine is currently in an under-step cubby, over the base (OSB floorboard between) and against the side of the main water tank (steel bulkhead plus OSB). It's protected by heat of deeper water plus plenty of thermal mass.

 

In moving it up, it would still be in a cupboard. I suspect this will stay close to baseplate temperature, so that's another thing to watch in the cold snaps.

 

 

On 12/12/2023 at 13:50, blackrose said:

On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, magnetman said:

I did read your solutions. For this you need to have an alarm which works. So basically you are relying on an alarm with a battery rather than gravity to solve the problem.

They've always worked for me.

Two layers of protection is better than one.

 

 

On a related point, do folks recommend to leave the system pressurised?

When I leave the boat I let the pump run, then isolate its 12V. The pipes remain pressurised.

When I return it's almost always held the pressure, even after weeks of absence, so I'm fairly sure there are no slow leaks.

[magnetman]

If the pump is above the tank you can just tee a ball valve in the pipework beside the pump on the inlet side to drain it down. Open the valve (to atmosphere) and the water on the tank side drains back to the tank by gravity. Open the taps and the pump will empty itself into the sink. Then switch pump orf. Always sensible to have a switch for the pump somewhere convenient.

 

 

 

If you thermally insulated the pump to a metal part of the boat it seems like it will be too noisy. 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by magnetman

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If the pump is above the tank you can just tee a ball valve in the pipework beside the pump on the inlet side to drain it down. Open the valve (to atmosphere) 

 

I just take the cover off the inlet strainer and run the pump to air purge it, that doesn't of course allow water to drain back to the tank 

[wakey_wake]

On 13/12/2023 at 17:57, magnetman said:

If you thermally insulated the pump to a metal part of the boat it seems like it will be too noisy. 

I think it's possible, but bizarrely esoteric.

Baseplate. Steel up-stand welded to that, of sufficient height. Pump mounted onto that with acoustic isolation. Then the whole mess thermally insulated.

🤷‍♂️

[captain flint]

On 10/12/2023 at 18:36, ditchcrawler said:

My pump sits in a plastic tray with a water alarm so I know when it starts to leak, I think this is the fourth in 22 years.

Now that's a really good idea! Thanks. 

[ditchcrawler]

On 10/12/2023 at 18:36, ditchcrawler said:

My pump sits in a plastic tray with a water alarm so I know when it starts to leak, I think this is the fourth in 22 years.

Well it did its job last night, leak on the suction strainer, I had loosened the lid to let air in when I drained the system last month, for some reason it didn't seal when I retightened it, so when I refilled the system yesterday afternoon it started weeping., about a cup full in 6 or 7 hours

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Well it did its job last night, leak on the suction strainer, I had loosened the lid to let air in when I drained the system last month, for some reason it didn't seal when I retightened it, so when I refilled the system yesterday afternoon it started weeping., about a cup full in 6 or 7 hours

 

My water alarm is really loud. I'm surprised you can put up with the noise for 6-7 hours... 😂🤣

[captain flint]

20 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Well it did its job last night, leak on the suction strainer, I had loosened the lid to let air in when I drained the system last month, for some reason it didn't seal when I retightened it, so when I refilled the system yesterday afternoon it started weeping., about a cup full in 6 or 7 hours

What kind of alarm is it? Does the whole unit sit in the bottom of the tray, or is it the kind you mount nearby with a sensor (on a cable) that sits in the tray?

 

I see various cheap ones on amazon, but most that have a good number of reviews have some comments saying they don't work/alarm stops after 5 secs etc. 

 

The best rated one I've found sits in the tray, but I'm wondering if it would stop working if submerged... Though that seems a bit unlikely, I guess. 

 

Obviously there are lots of very reliable professional ones for 100+ quid but I'm thinking that would be overkill! 

[magnetman]

A bath alarm seems an interesting option.

Maybe just a float switch in the bowl wired through the pump 12v supply to an indicator light in a suitable location where you will notice it.

One of my boats has a nice little orange dashboard indicator light to show if the light in the lavatory/shower compartment has been left on inadvertently. Its very conspicuous as a lamp also very easy to install just needs a 12mm hole or whatever for it to slide into.

 

A leaking pump does not appear to me to be an alarm situation its more that would would just 'like to know' if a problem is occurring.

[captain flint]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

A bath alarm seems an interesting option.

Maybe just a float switch in the bowl wired through the pump 12v supply to an indicator light in a suitable location where you will notice it.

One of my boats has a nice little orange dashboard indicator light to show if the light in the lavatory/shower compartment has been left on inadvertently. Its very conspicuous as a lamp also very easy to install just needs a 12mm hole or whatever for it to slide into.

 

A leaking pump does not appear to me to be an alarm situation its more that would would just 'like to know' if a problem is occurring.

True, it's just the whole damp/moldy osb3 board thing i would like to avoid, but nice to avoid if possible. This time I think I spotted the leak in time, but that was pure luck! 

[magnetman]

An indicator light would come on before there was a problem thus alterting you to the potential for a negative outcome to arise.

 

 

I think a rectangular type petrol can with the top cut orf could be used for the container and the pump elevated inside the container by sticking suitable pieces of wood to the bottom with sikaflex then screwing the pump to the pieces of wood.

 

Then you fix a float switch close to the bottom of the container and route this via the electrical supply to switch on an indicator lamp somewhere conspicious.

 

This would allow a fairly good amount of water to be able to leak before any issues occured with the flooring.

 

 

There is predictable part of the pump which is going to leak. It won't be leaking from the motor it will be leaking from the join in the housing or possibly the in and out pipes.

These are the bits which need to be mounted above the catchment container.

[captain flint]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

sticking suitable pieces of wood to the bottom with sikaflex then screwing the pump to the pieces of wood.

 

Good plan, though tbh I was just planning on something even easier (and messier) and just screwing through the bottom of whatever I use as a drip tray, then putting some sealant (maybe sikaflex) over each screw hole. Obviously it would be mildly annoying when it comes to changing the pump in the future, but I can live with that. 

[Jon57]

11 minutes ago, captain flint said:

Good plan, though tbh I was just planning on something even easier (and messier) and just screwing through the bottom of whatever I use as a drip tray, then putting some sealant (maybe sikaflex) over each screw hole. Obviously it would be mildly annoying when it comes to changing the pump in the future, but I can live with that. 

Just fix it to a piece of lead flashing if you have access to some. Or do it as magnetman surguested, alot easier to change the pump when your need to. 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, captain flint said:

True, it's just the whole damp/moldy osb3 board thing i would like to avoid, but nice to avoid if possible. This time I think I spotted the leak in time, but that was pure luck! 

How about a float switch in the pump container that disables the pump if it leaks? Then you would have to inspect. No need for lights or alarms.

[magnetman]

This would only work if the Boat is occupied all the time/pump in regular use or the leak was from the pressure side.

 

If the leak was from the tank side and the pump was not used for a certain amount of time the water would come over the top of the container.

 

Having said that the same problem would occur if it was an indicator lamp.

 

Maybe its best to wire the float switch to disable the pump AND also wire it to an old button mobile phone which has had the copper contact pads on no.2 joined by a long length of wire which is cut in half and leads to a reed switch. Battery taken out, resistor soldered in and powered by a 12v/3,7v step down circuit.

 

Before this you program no.2 speed dial to be your own phone number. Phone needs a sim in it.

 

It does work I tried it but with a reed and magnet based mooring detachment alarm rather than a water alarm.

 

 

Nokia 3310 or simialr works for this as you can get it apart.

 

Alternatively have a float switch and a tiny bilge pump like one of these discharging to the sink waste.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314368810930

 

They are really good and not expensive at all less than a fiver. Runs off USB so you would need to switch the USB socket with the float switch or interfere with the wiring.

 

 

 

 

They used to do 12v versions of this pump but can't find them. They probably don't last long but the general idea with something like a leaking domestic water pump is that it gets sorted out rather than being a long term thing.

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by magnetman

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, captain flint said:

What kind of alarm is it? Does the whole unit sit in the bottom of the tray, or is it the kind you mount nearby with a sensor (on a cable) that sits in the tray?

 

I see various cheap ones on amazon, but most that have a good number of reviews have some comments saying they don't work/alarm stops after 5 secs etc. 

 

The best rated one I've found sits in the tray, but I'm wondering if it would stop working if submerged... Though that seems a bit unlikely, I guess. 

 

Obviously there are lots of very reliable professional ones for 100+ quid but I'm thinking that would be overkill! 

It looks similar to this but a slightly different design detector pad, but without emptying the crockery cupboard and fishing mine out its as good as I can tell you. It has alerted me to a faulty pump a couple of times now. The unit sits on the bottom shelf and the detector pad sits in the tray on top of the closed cell foam that the pump sits on, so needs about 0.5mm of water before alarming.