Roving boaters

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

Surprisingly, none.

 

The calculator I have seen shows that a WB that is a CCer pays both the widebeam surcharge, and the CC surcharge.

The increases are staged with the surcharges increasing annually.

 

A WB with a Home mooring over 10 1/2 feet beam pays a 'widebeam' surcharge of 32% (2025), if the same boat then becomes a CCer it pays an additional 10% CC surcharge (2025)

 

By 2028 the same boat (with a home mooring) pays a 50% 'widebeam' surcharge and if it becomes a CCer a 25% CC surcharge

 

An 11 foot beam CC widebeam will be paying a total of a 75% surcharge compared to the standard licence, remembering that a standard licence will also be increasing in price annually based on an inflation +? calculation.

 

After the 2024s 31% increase a CCing 11 foot WB will see its licence fee increase by ~10% annually (compared to a NB with a home mooring) in addition to any standard licence fee increases

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The calculator I have seen shows that a WB that is a CCer pays both the widebeam surcharge, and the CC surcharge.

The increases are staged with the surcharges increasing annually.

 

 

Quite. And currently they pay no CC surcharge, which is what I took Drayke to be asking. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Quite. And currently they pay no CC surcharge, which is what I took Drayke to be asking. 

 

 

 

OK maybe I was wrong as I interpreted his question :

 

...what surcharges will someone with a wide beam that is a continues cruiser have to pay?

 

as asking about what will 'have' to be paid in the future.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

OK maybe I was wrong as I interpreted his question :

 

...what surcharges will someone with a wide beam that is a continues cruiser have to pay?

 

as asking about what will 'have' to be paid in the future.

 

And I took him to be asking "What CC surcharge will a fattie have to pay at next renewal".

 

But his question is doubly ambiguous:

 

1) Width surcharges or CC surcharges? Or both? 

2) When?

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Some interesting information about the numbers involved :

 

The March 2023 national boat count identified there were 35,814 boats on the Trust's waterway network (including private marinas), of these 27,388 were boats with a home mooring, and 7379 were boats without a home mooring (continuous cruisers). Other boats counted include those that are trailable (i.e. are kept out of the water) or where mooring status has not been declared yet.

 

The 2022 boater census indicated that 23.4% of boaters with a home mooring were permanently living aboard and 79.9%% of boaters without a home mooring were permanently living aboard.

 

Approximately half of liveaboard boaters responding to the boat licence consultation stated that reducing the cost of living was a motivation when they first started to boat, with liveaboard continuous cruisers even more likely than those with a home mooring to state this as a motivation.

 

In the 2022 Boater census 33.7% of respondents stated that their day-to-day activities were affected by a disability or a long-term health condition (10.1% a lot, 23.6% a little). 17.5% of respondents to the boater census said that they faced challenges living on a boat due to a disability or a long-term health condition.

 

Fifty-seven percent (57%) of disabled boaters responding to the boat licence consultation who stated that they either started boating or continue to boat as part of a more affordable lifestyle believed that introducing a surcharge for continuous cruisers was 'much less reasonable' than the current model.

 

The 2022 boater census indicates that 74% of all boat licence holders are aged over 55 (43% over 65) and 19% of boaters without a home mooring were aged over 55 (8% over 65).

 

5.2% of boaters responding to the boater census stated that they had children living aboard. 2.5% of boaters responding to the boater survey 2023 ethnicity questions categorised themselves as being Asian/Asian British, from a Mixed/or Multiple ethnic Group or from another ethnic group. No respondents identified themselves as being Black/African/Caribbean/Black British, Chinese or Arab. This percentage is lower than the national figures for UKME individuals living in England and Wales.

 

As part of the boat licence consultation, we asked for information about household income. 53% of boaters stated that their household income was below £40,000, 43% stated their household was income below £30,000, and just over a quarter (27%) stating their household income was below £20,000. It is clear that for a significant proportion of boaters, including those with protected characteristics, their boats serve as their main or only residence.

 

There were 8,479 responses to the consultation survey. There were 6412 (76%) responses from boaters with a home mooring and 1908 (23%) responses from boaters without a home mooring (continuous cruisers)

 

 

If asked I would never have thought that such a low percentage (only 8%) of CCers were above working age - it has always struck me that it was an 'old persons' game due to the moving requirements. Likewise the total percentage of licence holders over 65 seems particularly high -maybe us oldies like the security of bricks and mortar in our dotage.

 

 

31 minutes ago, MtB said:

And I took him to be asking "What CC surcharge will a fattie have to pay at next renewal".

 

 

If his renewal is post April 2024 then (assuming he is a CCing WB) then he will have to pay both surcharges.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tacet]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Some interesting information about the numbers involved :

 

The March 2023 national boat count identified there were 35,814 boats on the Trust's waterway network (including private marinas), of these 27,388 were boats with a home mooring, and 7379 were boats without a home mooring (continuous cruisers). Other boats counted include those that are trailable (i.e. are kept out of the water) or where mooring status has not been declared yet.

 

The 2022 boater census indicated that 23.4% of boaters with a home mooring were permanently living aboard and 79.9%% of boaters without a home mooring were permanently living aboard.

 

Approximately half of liveaboard boaters responding to the boat licence consultation stated that reducing the cost of living was a motivation when they first started to boat, with liveaboard continuous cruisers even more likely than those with a home mooring to state this as a motivation.

 

In the 2022 Boater census 33.7% of respondents stated that their day-to-day activities were affected by a disability or a long-term health condition (10.1% a lot, 23.6% a little). 17.5% of respondents to the boater census said that they faced challenges living on a boat due to a disability or a long-term health condition.

 

Fifty-seven percent (57%) of disabled boaters responding to the boat licence consultation who stated that they either started boating or continue to boat as part of a more affordable lifestyle believed that introducing a surcharge for continuous cruisers was 'much less reasonable' than the current model.

 

The 2022 boater census indicates that 74% of all boat licence holders are aged over 55 (43% over 65) and 19% of boaters without a home mooring were aged over 55 (8% over 65).

 

5.2% of boaters responding to the boater census stated that they had children living aboard. 2.5% of boaters responding to the boater survey 2023 ethnicity questions categorised themselves as being Asian/Asian British, from a Mixed/or Multiple ethnic Group or from another ethnic group. No respondents identified themselves as being Black/African/Caribbean/Black British, Chinese or Arab. This percentage is lower than the national figures for UKME individuals living in England and Wales.

 

As part of the boat licence consultation, we asked for information about household income. 53% of boaters stated that their household income was below £40,000, 43% stated their household was income below £30,000, and just over a quarter (27%) stating their household income was below £20,000. It is clear that for a significant proportion of boaters, including those with protected characteristics, their boats serve as their main or only residence.

 

There were 8,479 responses to the consultation survey. There were 6412 (76%) responses from boaters with a home mooring and 1908 (23%) responses from boaters without a home mooring (continuous cruisers)

 

 

If asked I would never have thought that such a low percentage (only 8%) of CCers were of working age - it has always struck me that it was an 'old persons' game due to the moving requirements. Likewise the total percentage of licence holders over 65 seems particularly high -maybe us oldies like the security of bricks and mortar in our dotage.

 

 

 

If his renewal is post April 2024 then (assuming he is a CCing WB) then he will have to pay both surcharges.

The quote says 8% of CC licence holders are over 65 years.  Therefore, presumably 92% are 65 or younger - which is traditionally taken as working age.  Probably skewed towards the to younger end by our London friends.

[magnetman]

"where mooring status has not been declared yet."

 

I wonder how that works then. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

The quote says 8% of CC licence holders are over 65 years.  Therefore, presumably 92% are 65 or younger - which is traditionally taken as working age.  Probably skewed towards the to younger end by our London friends.

 

Thank you that is what I meant but ended up saying the opposite. 

It surprises me that 92% of CCers are of working age

[Tacet]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thank you that is what I meant but ended up saying the opposite. 

It surprises me that 92% of CCers are of working age

Me too...

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

An interesting snippet from C&RT :

 

Our equality adjustment process allows for the widebeam surcharge to be waived for any boater that requires a wider boat due to a disability, for example to allow them to move more freely in a wheelchair or to have additional space to store equipment required due to a disability. In other words, disabled boaters who require a larger boat due to their additional needs will have the additional costs associated with a licence for larger vessels waived.

 

There will now be a shortage of secondhand wheelchairs as WB boaters try to buy one.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

An interesting snippet from C&RT :

 

Our equality adjustment process allows for the widebeam surcharge to be waived for any boater that requires a wider boat due to a disability, for example to allow them to move more freely in a wheelchair or to have additional space to store equipment required due to a disability. In other words, disabled boaters who require a larger boat due to their additional needs will have the additional costs associated with a licence for larger vessels waived

Surely it would be better to get disabled boaters off the boat and into land based accomodation. 

 

This is getting silly. 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Surely it would be better to get disabled boaters off the boat and into land based accomodation. 

 

This is getting silly. 

 

Yes and they have completely overlooked the difficulties experienced by single-handed blind boaters. What do CRT do for them?  

[magnetman]

The best thing to do with single handed boaters is to give them a hand.

What about deaf dumb and blind kid pinball players with no hands who want to cc on a boat? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Surely it would be better to get disabled boaters off the boat and into land based accomodation. 

 

This is getting silly. 

 

A gentleman in a marina we were in had a stroke (or two) and was finding it dificult to live a normal life, struggled to move his boat to the pump-out etc and his wife did as much for him as she could, but in the end it was his neighbours who moved the boat about and even fetched shopping etc for them

Home-Help (District nurses ?) came in regularly but with no improvement and depsite him stating he would never leave the boat they said that they were withdrawing their help as it was not reasonable to expect the help/nurses to climb up icy steps an a wobbly pontoon to access his boat.

 

He was given a choice :

 

Stay on the boat with no help, or

They would find them a council bungalow in the same area.

 

He eventually accepted that he needed to move in bricks & mortar and continue to receive help.

 

He convinced himself he was 'coming back' to the boat but a year or so later he asked me to advertise and sell his boat, which I did.

When it came to delivering it to a yard with a hoist it was a nightmare. Going thru the big River Trent locks it started taking on water and the wooden core (it was a GRP Cruiser) was totally rotten, water was running out from behind the trim panels.

Got there are got it (carefully) lifted out and onto a truck.

Never been so glad to get back on land.

[David Mack]

21 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, I have an EoG mooring which costs about 70% of my licence fee. Other than being on the offside of the canal it offers nothing over mooring on the towpath side.

Other than the privacy and security benefits of not having Joe public walking and cycling alongside, the ability to (legitimately) keep boat-related stuff on the bank alongside the boat, and access to the mains services of your house...

41 minutes ago, magnetman said:

What about deaf dumb and blind kid pinball players with no hands who want to cc on a boat? 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Surely it would be better to get disabled boaters off the boat and into land based accomodation. 

 

This is getting silly. 

 

Well that rather depends on individual circumstances and the exact nature of the disability and the extent it causes limited mobility. Some may only need the use of aids some of the time.

 

A blanket policy of 'get disabled people off their boats and onto land' is going to penalise those who can actually manage quite well thank you.

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Well that rather depends on individual circumstances and the exact nature of the disability and the extent it causes limited mobility. Some may only need the use of aids some of the time.

 

A blanket policy of 'get disabled people off their boats and onto land' is going to penalise those who can actually manage quite well thank you.

 

Actually yes I would be included in that as have a registered disability myself. No way am I getting orf my boat after 30 yars and counting (aiming for another 30) ! 

 

I should have said people in wheelchairs which is of course what it was originally about. 

 

Bit lazy thanks for pulling me up on that !

[Mad Harold]

46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A gentleman in a marina we were in had a stroke (or two) and was finding it dificult to live a normal life, struggled to move his boat to the pump-out etc and his wife did as much for him as she could, but in the end it was his neighbours who moved the boat about and even fetched shopping etc for them

Home-Help (District nurses ?) came in regularly but with no improvement and depsite him stating he would never leave the boat they said that they were withdrawing their help as it was not reasonable to expect the help/nurses to climb up icy steps an a wobbly pontoon to access his boat.

 

He was given a choice :

 

Stay on the boat with no help, or

They would find them a council bungalow in the same area.

 

He eventually accepted that he needed to move in bricks & mortar and continue to receive help.

 

He convinced himself he was 'coming back' to the boat but a year or so later he asked me to advertise and sell his boat, which I did.

When it came to delivering it to a yard with a hoist it was a nightmare. Going thru the big River Trent locks it started taking on water and the wooden core (it was a GRP Cruiser) was totally rotten, water was running out from behind the trim panels.

Got there are got it (carefully) lifted out and onto a truck.

Never been so glad to get back on land.

What make of boat was it?

A Dawncraft by any chance?

[Guest]

Just now, magnetman said:

 

Actually yes I would be included in that as have a registered disability myself. No way am I getting orf my boat after 30 yars and counting (aiming for another 30) ! 

 

I should have said people in wheelchairs which is of course what it was originally about. 

 

Bit lazy thanks for pulling me up on that !

 

Well TBH even a blanket policy of wheel chair users is OTT. Somebody could have all sorts of adaptations and have adjustments in order that they could manage very well especially if they have carer support. 

[Higgs]

I presume, that since home moorers feel that there should be a surcharge on CCers, home moorers will be paying for each use of those things that CCers use. How is that cost going to be set? It is a natural progression.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Higgs

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Other than the privacy and security benefits of not having Joe public walking and cycling alongside, the ability to (legitimately) keep boat-related stuff on the bank alongside the boat, and access to the mains services of your house...

My EOG mooring, like most, is on a farm. I'm not allowed to keep stuff on the bank unless it's tidily in a small box and obviously there are no mains services. A private towpath mooring doesn't even have the privacy you mention. Just saying...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

53 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

What make of boat was it?

A Dawncraft by any chance?

 

I'd be pretty sure it was not a Dawncraft.

 

I don't recall the make (if I ever knew it), it was about 36-40 foot and 12 (ish) foot beam. It had a 3-step 'ladder' to get up to gunwale height,

 

In his prime he had used it widely for coastal cruising.

[Mike Todd]

16 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't see why it makes any difference if licences or mooring fees are paid as part of benefits or out of earnings, or a mix of both. That's no different to renting on land.

The simple fact is that CRT need more money from boaters and their accountants reckon they'll get more from surcharges than any other way. It has nothing to do with fairness, or how boaters responded to a survey, or discrimination against any boating style. Accountants don't care about any of that. Just money.

It potentially males a lot of difference in price elasticity. See what happened with Help to Buy.

[magnetman]

I reckon very few of the people moaning about price increases are eligible for benefits. 

 

There is a distinct aroma of organic muesli from Waitrose about all this

 

 

[Mike Todd]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The calculator I have seen shows that a WB that is a CCer pays both the widebeam surcharge, and the CC surcharge.

The increases are staged with the surcharges increasing annually.

 

A WB with a Home mooring over 10 1/2 feet beam pays a 'widebeam' surcharge of 32% (2025), if the same boat then becomes a CCer it pays an additional 10% CC surcharge (2025)

 

By 2028 the same boat (with a home mooring) pays a 50% 'widebeam' surcharge and if it becomes a CCer a 25% CC surcharge

 

An 11 foot beam CC widebeam will be paying a total of a 75% surcharge compared to the standard licence, remembering that a standard licence will also be increasing in price annually based on an inflation +? calculation.

 

After the 2024s 31% increase a CCing 11 foot WB will see its licence fee increase by ~10% annually (compared to a NB with a home mooring) in addition to any standard licence fee increases

 

 

I have seen numerous WB's with no home mooring but very few CCing in any real sense of the term.