Zanussi ZWC 1301 and Victron - trying to get to the bottom of it...

[cheesegas]

So as most of your probably know, Zanussi washing machines just don't get along with Victron inverters. My setup is a Victron 12/80/2000 (old microprocessor version) and a Zanussi ZWC 1301 3kg. It does the usual thing of getting past the wash cycle, and then on the rinse cycle when there's more water in the drum and there's more load on the motor, it tries to turn the drum but it just twitches, the lights on the front of the machine flicker and then it tries again and again. The lights in the boat also flicker which suggest it's momentarily drawing a lot of current, too quickly to measure with a meter.

 

Updating the Multiplus's firmware to an Assistant version helped a bit as before that it wouldn't even spin the drum on the wash cycle but it still can't complete a cycle. 

 

The only thing which gets it able to spin the drum up on the first rinse cycle is to switch on a resistive load of no less than 600w...a little fan heater. This is fine in summer with lots of solar, but as we get to the months of less solar I'm trying to get to the bottom of why is does this as I'd like to avoid using so much power.

 

I suspect it's to do with the motor's lack of back EMF on startup shifting the power factor so low that the inverter's 2kva rating isn't enough to maintain voltage, so the machine cuts out. Switching on a resistive load somehow smooths this enough to shift the power factor.

 

Going to put the machine on a storage scope and see how the waveform looks, and what the peak-peak voltage is. Measuring power factor at that instant is going to be almost impossible though as the plug-in meters aren't fast enough... Initial thoughts are to try a 1:1 isolation transformer which I can borrow from work, and after that a power factor correction capacitor.

 

What's everyone elses experience of Victron and Zanussi? Something similar?

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

So as most of your probably know, Zanussi washing machines just don't get along with Victron inverters. My setup is a Victron 12/80/2000 (old microprocessor version) and a Zanussi ZWC 1301 3kg. It does the usual thing of getting past the wash cycle, and then on the rinse cycle when there's more water in the drum and there's more load on the motor, it tries to turn the drum but it just twitches, the lights on the front of the machine flicker and then it tries again and again. The lights in the boat also flicker which suggest it's momentarily drawing a lot of current, too quickly to measure with a meter.

 

Updating the Multiplus's firmware to an Assistant version helped a bit as before that it wouldn't even spin the drum on the wash cycle but it still can't complete a cycle. 

 

The only thing which gets it able to spin the drum up on the first rinse cycle is to switch on a resistive load of no less than 600w...a little fan heater. This is fine in summer with lots of solar, but as we get to the months of less solar I'm trying to get to the bottom of why is does this as I'd like to avoid using so much power.

 

I suspect it's to do with the motor's lack of back EMF on startup shifting the power factor so low that the inverter's 2kva rating isn't enough to maintain voltage, so the machine cuts out. Switching on a resistive load somehow smooths this enough to shift the power factor.

 

Going to put the machine on a storage scope and see how the waveform looks, and what the peak-peak voltage is. Measuring power factor at that instant is going to be almost impossible though as the plug-in meters aren't fast enough... Initial thoughts are to try a 1:1 isolation transformer which I can borrow from work, and after that a power factor correction capacitor.

 

What's everyone elses experience of Victron and Zanussi? Something similar?

Not answering your question but the zanussi works fine on our Mastervolt 2500 Combi. There is no flickering of the lights etc - which suggests it isn’t struggling. I mean, how hard can it be to turn a small washing machine drum?

 

So I would have thought something else other than sheer max current. Do you have power saving modes disabled?

 

It would certainly be interesting to put a dual channel scope on it, to catch the voltage and current (current by means of voltage across a small series resistor). Possibly just some momentary voltage glitch is upsetting the motor controller in the zanussi.

Edited September 17, 2023 by nicknorman

[blackrose]

It works fine from my Sterling PSW 2000W inverter too. As I've said many times, some of the expensive Victron gear is just too sensitive and highly strung for use on boats. You actually need something a bit more basic without all the high tech features.

 

Why don't you phone Victron and ask them explaining that the same model works from other brands of inverter.

Edited September 17, 2023 by blackrose

[MtB]

Well outside my expertise, but I wonder if a big fat UPS inserted between the Victron and the Zanussi might change the characteristics of the power supply enough to make it work.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

I have run a KWC 1300W on a Chinese pure sign inverter which would go all the way through a wash and rinses until the pause before the final spin.

There it would start to spin and stop. This would repeat constantly but if a small load, a light bulb, was put on the inverter it would happily complete to the end.

So to my mind it is the inverter that lets it down probably due to the soft start to the spin cycle but oddly its was only the last spin, not the ones between rinses.

I have also seen 2 other same machines on different inverters which did the exactly the same and several on cheap inverters that work flawlessly.

[cheesegas]

Just now, MtB said:

Well outside my expertise, but I wonder if a big fat UPS inserted between the Victron and the Zanussi might change the characteristics of the power supply enough to make it work.

That would only work if it's a full online UPS, which is basically a charger, inverter and battery. The charger is always on and the inverter is always on, supplying the load. Most are offline, meaning with normal usage the mains input is directly connected to the mains output via a relay and the battery is on charge. When power fails, a relay quickly switches the inverter on and switches the load from mains to inverter - IT equipment is designed to accept this quick drop in power. However, because most IT equipment is fairly tolerant of waveform and voltage - and most have built in power factor correction - their inverters tend to be quite crude almost modified sine wave, which I don't think the washing machine would like. It certainly didn't like the original, very old Sterling PSW the boat came with!

 

 

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Not answering your question but the zanussi works fine on our Mastervolt 2500 Combi. There is no flickering of the lights etc - which suggests it isn’t struggling. I mean, how hard can it be to turn a small washing machine drum?

 

So I would have thought something else other than sheer max current. Do you have power saving modes disabled?

 

It would certainly be interesting to put a dual channel scope on it, to catch the voltage and current (current by means of voltage across a small series resistor). Possibly just some momentary voltage glitch is upsetting the motor controller in the zanussi.

Unfortunately my scope's only a cheap single channel one. And yep, all power saving modes are disabled, voltage is set to the maximum Victron allow (245v) and it's running the most recent Assistant firmware.

 

I'm fairly confident it's something to do with how the Victron handles low power factor loads, as it only happens when the motor is trying to start with a drum full of water. Switching on a big resistive load then allows it to spin up...

 

 

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

It works fine from my Sterling PSW 2000W inverter too. As I've said many times, some of the expensive Victron gear is just too sensitive and highly strung for use on boats. You actually need something a bit more basic without all the high tech features.

 

Why don't you phone Vctron and ask them explaining that the same model works from other brands of inverter.

The boat originally came with a rather old 2kw Sterling PSW inverter and the machine didn't even switch on with that, just flashed its lights angrily. I've heard that this machine doesn't work with some and then works with others, even of the same model. I posted on the forums a while ago but didn't get much of a response, I'll try again actually, thanks for the reminder.

 

I am the tinkering type and I do really like how Victron make most of their protocols open source, and there's an active and encouraged DIY development community, unlike Mastervolt who keep everything very secret.

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have run a KWC 1300W on a Chinese pure sign inverter which would go all the way through a wash and rinses until the pause before the final spin.

There it would start to spin and stop. This would repeat constantly but if a small load, a light bulb, was put on the inverter it would happily complete to the end.

So to my mind it is the inverter that lets it down probably due to the soft start to the spin cycle but oddly its was only the last spin, not the ones between rinses.

I have also seen 2 other same machines on different inverters which did the exactly the same and several on cheap inverters that work flawlessly.

Yep, this sounds similar to mine, the machine also needs a resistive load for the last spin as it goes from 0rpm to something like 500rpm. However, mine needs a 600w load - anything less and it doesn't play nice, a little lightbulb isn't enough.

[PeterF]

Our previous boat had a no brand 2000W sine wave inverter from Photonic Universe and it operated the Zanussi 1300W or 1301W without any problems or need for a resistive load. I can not recall which model of Zanussi it was, purchased late 2018.

 

Our new boat is all Victron, Multiplus 3000VA and that runs a Hoover full size washer with full electronic control without issue.

 

There are many reports of this on the Victron Community but as far as I know, Victron have not made any inputs on the threads. It appears to be a particular combination of this machine and Victron inverters. One thread got the combination working through a firmware update but it sound like the inverter was making a lot of noise trying to handle the load.

 

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/97454/zwc-1301-zanussi-washing-machine-not-working-on-mu.html

 

https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en/catalog/full/533-2000W-12V-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-with-OnOff-remote-control.html

[pearley]

I suspect it's to do with the motor's lack of back EMF on startup shifting the power factor so low that the inverter's 2kva rating isn't enough to maintain voltage, so the machine cuts out. Switching on a resistive load somehow smooths this enough to shift the power factor.

 

Dout it's because 2kva not enough as dud the same on our 3kva Multiplus. Adding resistive load didn't do much either.

[Tracy D'arth]

To get to the bottom of this we really need to know what is on the electronics in the washer control panel.

Motor control will be a thyristor but what else is in there?

Is this similar to the distress that a microwave causes to some inverters?

[Martin Nicholas]

If your 12V (are they?) lights flicker then you have a 12V problem. Bank not big enough or not new enough or not charged enough or has some iffy wiring.

 

See if you can get a sensible 12V reading using the MIN setting of your meter.

 

See if the LEDs on the inverter are flicking on momentarily. Do it in the dark if needed.

 

1600W from a 12v bank is pushing things IMHO. Some battery/inverter/load combinations will work, some won't.

[cheesegas]

11 minutes ago, Martin Nicholas said:

If your 12V (are they?) lights flicker then you have a 12V problem. Bank not big enough or not new enough or not charged enough or has some iffy wiring.

 

See if you can get a sensible 12V reading using the MIN setting of your meter.

 

See if the LEDs on the inverter are flicking on momentarily. Do it in the dark if needed.

 

1600W from a 12v bank is pushing things IMHO. Some battery/inverter/load combinations will work, some won't.

Yep, all 12v. It's definitely not the battery bank - with an extra 600w load switched on at the same time, the machine works fine. Also, when the drum fails to spin up, the heating element isn't even on, it gets past that stage without a problem. Load averages are less than 200w, but I suspect that the motor skews the current phase enough to pull the power factor down. 

 

I've put the 12v side on a scope, measuring across the inverter's input terminals and it never drops below 13v (lithium batteries), so the problem is to do with how the inverter handles low power factor loads.

[Tracy D'arth]

14 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Yep, all 12v. It's definitely not the battery bank - with an extra 600w load switched on at the same time, the machine works fine. Also, when the drum fails to spin up, the heating element isn't even on, it gets past that stage without a problem. Load averages are less than 200w, but I suspect that the motor skews the current phase enough to pull the power factor down. 

 

I've put the 12v side on a scope, measuring across the inverter's input terminals and it never drops below 13v (lithium batteries), so the problem is to do with how the inverter handles low power factor loads.

Agreed, the problem seems to start when the washer is paused, only the electronics drawing current. Which is why it will continue if there is another load on the inverter. It then fails to get a proper start on the motor control electronics.

[cheesegas]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

To get to the bottom of this we really need to know what is on the electronics in the washer control panel.

Motor control will be a thyristor but what else is in there?

Is this similar to the distress that a microwave causes to some inverters?

Similar but not quite - microwave's don't contain anything which chops up the waveform like a triac control, they just have a honking great transformer inside which is a highly inductive, very reactive, low power factor load which is difficult for inverters to drive. The power isn't actually modulated, on the low power settings it just reduces the duty cycle to something like 5 seconds off, 10 seconds on.

 

Got to pull the machine out anyway to sort something that's got caught in the pump so I'll see if I can get an idea of how it's controlled when it's in bits.

 

Looking at the photos on this handy ebay listing, it's pretty unconventional for a washing machine motor - brushed, series wound, AC motor with a tacho coil. Oddly, the brushes aren't connected directly to the controller, the other washing machine motors I've seen have separate connections for brushes and field. This seems to be series wound with perhaps an extra winding for high torque, low RPM which is switched out to weaken the field at high RPMs.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293789529617

[Martin Nicholas]

Something is causing the 12V lighting to flicker.

 

It's possible that the inverter is optimised for LA batteries and can't cope with the different loading characteristics of Li cells.

[cheesegas]

Just now, Martin Nicholas said:

Something is causing the 12V lighting to flicker.

 

It's possible that the inverter is optimised for LA batteries and can't cope with the different loading characteristics of Li cells.

Yep, that's the inverter drawing a large amount of current. Same as when you put the kettle on, it pulls the battery voltage down by 0.3v or so which is visible in the lights. There's nothing different about the 'loading characteristics' of Li cells. The Multiplus range are suitable for any kind of battery, aside from low/high voltage cutoff points there's no such thing as an inverter optimised for a certain battery chemistry. Chargers yes, but not inverters.

2 hours ago, pearley said:

I suspect it's to do with the motor's lack of back EMF on startup shifting the power factor so low that the inverter's 2kva rating isn't enough to maintain voltage, so the machine cuts out. Switching on a resistive load somehow smooths this enough to shift the power factor.

 

Dout it's because 2kva not enough as dud the same on our 3kva Multiplus. Adding resistive load didn't do much either.

Thanks for the input, handy to know that a bigger inverter also doesn't like. Must be something to do with the waveform under inductive load, or with the triac switching.

 

Out of interest, how much resistive load did you add? Mine needs one hell of a lot more than a lightbulb - a 600w fan heater does the job!

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Similar but not quite - microwave's don't contain anything which chops up the waveform like a triac control, they just have a honking great transformer inside which is a highly inductive, very reactive, low power factor load which is difficult for inverters to drive. The power isn't actually modulated, on the low power settings it just reduces the duty cycle to something like 5 seconds off, 10 seconds on.

 

Got to pull the machine out anyway to sort something that's got caught in the pump so I'll see if I can get an idea of how it's controlled when it's in bits.

 

Looking at the photos on this handy ebay listing, it's pretty unconventional for a washing machine motor - brushed, series wound, AC motor with a tacho coil. Oddly, the brushes aren't connected directly to the controller, the other washing machine motors I've seen have separate connections for brushes and field. This seems to be series wound with perhaps an extra winding for high torque, low RPM which is switched out to weaken the field at high RPMs.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293789529617

 

That's true for older microwaves and some newer ones, but many nowadays (often labelled as "Inverter") can and do modulate the power -- mine at home certainly does.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven

 

"Traditional microwaves rely on internal high voltage power from a line/mains transformer, but many newer models are powered by an inverter. Inverter microwaves can be useful for achieving more even cooking results, as they offer a seamless stream of cooking power.^{[citation needed]}

A traditional microwave only has two power output levels, fully on and fully off. Intermediate heat settings are achieved using duty-cycle modulation and switch between full power and off every few seconds, with more time on for higher settings.

An inverter type, however, can sustain lower temperatures for a lengthy duration without having to switch itself off and on repeatedly. Apart from offering superior cooking ability, these microwaves are generally more energy-efficient.^{[35][34][36]"}

[cheesegas]

Just now, IanD said:

That's true for older microwaves and some newer ones, but many nowadays (often labelled as "Inverter") can and do modulate the power -- mine at home certainly does.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven

 

"Traditional microwaves rely on internal high voltage power from a line/mains transformer, but many newer models are powered by an inverter. Inverter microwaves can be useful for achieving more even cooking results, as they offer a seamless stream of cooking power.^{[citation needed]}

A traditional microwave only has two power output levels, fully on and fully off. Intermediate heat settings are achieved using duty-cycle modulation and switch between full power and off every few seconds, with more time on for higher settings.

An inverter type, however, can sustain lower temperatures for a lengthy duration without having to switch itself off and on repeatedly. Apart from offering superior cooking ability, these microwaves are generally more energy-efficient.^{[35][34][36]"}

Ah yep, I was going to mention those but didn't put it in for some reason! I recommend them for use on boats as they often have active power factor correction built into the power supply, and don't have a giant chunk of iron inside to make it horribly reactive. They aren't that common in smaller units though, I've only seen big family sizes ones built with inverters.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Ah yep, I was going to mention those but didn't put it in for some reason! I recommend them for use on boats as they often have active power factor correction built into the power supply, and don't have a giant chunk of iron inside to make it horribly reactive. They aren't that common in smaller units though, I've only seen big family sizes ones built with inverters.

 

More and more modern ones use inverters, because as well as being lighter (lower shipping costs) modern electronics means they're now probably cheaper to make than using a big heavy iron-core transformer with a lot of copper in it -- a few ferrite cores with a bit of copper and some switching electronics cost almost nothing nowadays...

[pearley]

2 hours ago, cheesegas said:

 

Thanks for the input, handy to know that a bigger inverter also doesn't like. Must be something to do with the waveform under inductive load, or with the triac switching.

 

Out of interest, how much resistive load did you add? Mine needs one hell of a lot more than a lightbulb - a 600w fan heater does the job!

Originally we had a ZWC 1300 and early Multiplus, all worked no problems except for a short period when I had switched Inverter to power saving mode. Inverter failed at 5 years and was replaced with later model with digital control. Still worked fine but washer failed at 8 years old (drum bearing which seems to be the weak point in these machines)

 

Replaced with new ZWC 1301. Would not work from day one. At each change of program it would stop and the drum would just twitch. Tried resistive loads, 3 X 100 watt halogen lamps. Didn't really make much difference but if you switched to Rinse it would Rinse but not spin, if you selected spin then it would spin. But not always. Did try with a 1000w fan heater and seemed ok ish but the isolator switch didn't like the continuous load.

 

That machine failed just before it's 5th birthday (drum bearing again) and under the terms of our extended warranty John Lewis refunded the full purchase price. We bought another ZWC1301 and that one worked perfectly until we sold the boat 2 years later.

 

Now have a widebeam with full size Ebac washer and Victron Multiplus which works fine.

Edited September 18, 2023 by pearley

[T.Dreme]

Not sure about your multiplus but I have a similar setup a zanusi and a 3000 multiplus.  If you can check if the phasing is set correctly at 50hz.  Mine was set to 60hz when installed and the zanusi kept switching to end cycle and light flashing.  Set to 50hz and no issues since. 
 

As suggest in someone’s earlier post look at the victron community. 
 

hope you resolve it 

[cheesegas]

Just now, T.Dreme said:

Not sure about your multiplus but I have a similar setup a zanusi and a 3000 multiplus.  If you can check if the phasing is set correctly at 50hz.  Mine was set to 60hz when installed and the zanusi kept switching to end cycle and light flashing.  Set to 50hz and no issues since. 
 

As suggest in someone’s earlier post look at the victron community. 
 

hope you resolve it 

Thanks for the reply, yep it’s set to 50hz. I expect the fix will involve some sort of power factor correction bodge or 1:1 transformer, still haven’t had a chance to put it on a scope though. 

[T.Dreme]

try turning off everything else see if it works just on the washer alone.  Might possibly be too much load on the multiplus.  
 

good luck

[cheesegas]

14 minutes ago, T.Dreme said:

try turning off everything else see if it works just on the washer alone.  Might possibly be too much load on the multiplus.  

It’s definitely not that - in fact, adding a 600w resistive load in the form of a little fan heater makes it work as I expect it’s smoothing the waveform. Nothing else is on at the time. 

[blackrose]

If I run my machine from the Honda EU30i generator which is meant to be pure sinewave, the Zanussi hesitates sometimes for up to 20 mins before it will let me start it. It always lets me start it in the end and once the cycle starts it's fine. I've never understood what's going on there.

[cheesegas]

36 minutes ago, blackrose said:

If I run my machine from the Honda EU30i generator which is meant to be pure sinewave, the Zanussi hesitates sometimes for up to 20 mins before it will let me start it. It always lets me start it in the end and once the cycle starts it's fine. I've never understood what's going on there.

The waveform is also ‘synthesised’ in the Honda’s control board rather than being created by a magnet moving past a coil like in a non-inverter generator, so it makes sense that each inverter - Honda or Victron - handles loads in different ways. As you probably know, the Honda has a three phase alternator that’s rectified to make DC, which is then inverted to make 240v AC. 
 

My Zanussi works perfectly with my cheap-ish Champion 2kva inverter generator though…