Offers/pre-purchase surveys of first boat purchase

[Beans]

Hello! I have been lurking for a while and just wanted to thank you all for the wealth of information on here. What a pleasure it is to learn and see all of your knowledge. I am here asking for some advice.

I am due to view a boat I really like the look of tomorrow, and wanted some general advice. It's a 23ft.

I plan to live on it full-time continuously cruising canals of London. I am new to boating but lived on one 
for a while in the peak of Winter with no hot water; my post winter cold shower method for warmth was sit by the fire
and eat half a scotch bonnet chilli. I am by no means experienced but I am very excited to become a person on the canals and learn what I need to.

 

An old survey from 2020 shows some necessary works that the Broker has said the owner has completed. I am not sure if I will be meeting the owner but it seems not, which is a shame. In the survey, the engine and gearbox were visually inspected but not started, weed hatch gasket was not checked, water system (shower , sink) were not checked (nor tank capacity), there is one battery on board, propellor was 'in serviceable condition, with some tip damage', a recommendation to check the floor of the gas locker for corrosion/painting and some entry points to the wider picture of the hull were not made accessible. The boat also needs to be blacked on purchase, and there is no solar panel system.

I think I have covered the 'main' things that are a potential headache for me. This would be my first boat purchase and I plan to get an independent surveyor, to check as much as humanly possible.

 

My biggest query is how I can influence the boats' readiness for the surveyor to catch as much as possible? I.e.: I know that the surveyor will not be straining or opening up anything, and I do not like the 'holes' left in the survey due to seemingly this.

 

Another is the land of offers. I hope there will be terms and conditions etc. I can go offer prior to deposit, then deposit prior to survey, etc. The truth is that side of adulthood is alien to me. I am using the consistent advice of a lovely boater who I have connected with on Facebook.

I am a bit over my head in general 😛, so I am just seeing who may be able to help.

Thank you so so much in advance.

[Arthur Marshall]

That's a very, very short boat to live on. I don't understand why a surveyor would recommend checking the gas locker for corrosion - surely that's his job? The engine wouldn't have been started because the boat was out of the water, and a visual check of engine and gearbox tells you nothing. If the battery was flat, then the water systems wouldn't work anyway, nor would anything else.

You'll need to put in a dedicated starter battery as otherwise, first time you flatten it using the lights in winter, you'll have no way to charge it up. That can be a major job depending how much space there is down there.

I lived on a 40 foot boat with a 23 foot cabin, and was cramped. How big's your living area in a 23 foot boat?

You can't do much about the surveyor. He'll advise about the state of the hull and that's about the only worthwhile thing you'll get, and that's not worth much as a guarantee. He might be able to spot if the work required has been done. If the battery's flat he can't check the electrics, and that and the gas is about all there is. Bear in mind that if the locker only takes the small gas bottles, they're being discontinued.

[Tracy D'arth]

How old? What type of boat? 23ft is far too small to live on, the cabin will be tiny. What engine/gearbox?

 

If its a Springer Waterbug  & @23ft it may well be , be aware that they were built with very thin 4mm steel and you will not get comprehensive insurance under 4mm, you have to consider the rust pits.

[Crewcut]

You might decide within the first 30 seconds that it's not the boat for you but if you think it might be a go'er (and as already said 23ft really is too small to live even remotely comfortably on) check as much as you possibly can yourself & then come back to the forum with your thoughts. Post a link to the ad if you can - we might be able to give you some pointers from things in the description or in the pictures like water staining around windows, e.g.

[Beans]

Hi, all. Appreciate your swift input.

 

It's a 1996 built by Morse Marine, with Beta Marine 28 engine. I was reluctant to post the link but here:

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-traditional-for-sale/734583

23ft is certainly small but in my view I will not need much, based on how I like to live and the fact that I have family and friends surrounding helps with the onboard minimalism. Of course seeing it for myself will tell me if this is just a fantasy. 

 

Survey wise the readings of the hull were between 4.1-4.5mm, so I think insurance wise, here's hoping not much has changed since the last survey.

(thank you @Tracy D'arth, @Arthur Marshall, @Crewcut)
 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Beans
addition of user tags (not sure if commenters are notified on author comments!)

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, Beans said:

My biggest query is how I can influence the boats' readiness for the surveyor to catch as much as possible? I.e.: I know that the surveyor will not be straining or opening up anything, and I do not like the 'holes' left in the survey due to seemingly this.

 

Another is the land of offers. I hope there will be terms and conditions etc. I can go offer prior to deposit, then deposit prior to survey, etc. The truth is that side of adulthood is alien to me. I am using the consistent advice of a lovely boater who I have connected with on Facebook.

I am a bit over my head in general 😛, so I am just seeing who may be able to help.

Thank you so so much in advance.

You cant influence the boats readiness as it’s not your boat. That needs to be done by the seller. I would not use the same Surveyor who surveyed it previously, pick your own surveyor independently, with no connection to the boat or broker and use the new survey not the old, you can compare new with old to see what has or hasn’t been done.

 Air on the side of caution with people you meet on Social Media especially “Lovely” ones. Are you a female?

 I get this a lot with new boaters and have to give them a reality check that they have never met these people and the only thing they have in common is they both might have a boat. What experience has this might person got with boats? Most Social media boaters Facebook, X (Twitter) instagram, TikTok have not had their boats long, and spend more of their time on social media than actually boating.

Edited August 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Beans]

3 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

You cant influence the boats readiness as it’s not your boat. That needs to be done by the seller. I would not use the same broker who surveyed it previously, pick your own surveyor independently, with no connection to the boat or broker and use the new survey not the old, you can compare new with old to see what has or hasn’t been done.

 Air on the side of caution with people you meet on Social Media especially “Lovely” ones. Are you a female?

 I get this a lot with new boaters and have to give them a reality check that they have never met these people and the only thing they have in common is they both might have a boat. What experience has this might person got with boats? Most Social media boaters Facebook, X (Twitter) instagram, TikTok have not had their boats long, and spend more of their time on social media than actually boating.

Hiya! Thanks for this. Fair enough, I was thinking as much. Seems to leave a lot of grey areas but I guess what can I do. I'll definitely be sourcing my own surveyor.

I'm 27 and male. I take your point on social media, I've had my fair share of experiences and skepticisms over the years. By lovely I just mean helpful; not sure how long they've been boating but they've looked over the boats/info I'm intrigued by, offered advice and and confessed being unsure as and when. They've altered their boat in ways I certainly could not !

 

All I can do thus far is trawl the internet and I live in a house, so I have wealths of potentially great, wrongful, or contradictory advice each time I hit the Enter key.

 

Really appreciate your input

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

37 minutes ago, Beans said:

Hiya! Thanks for this. Fair enough, I was thinking as much. Seems to leave a lot of grey areas but I guess what can I do. I'll definitely be sourcing my own surveyor.

I'm 27 and male. I take your point on social media, I've had my fair share of experiences and skepticisms over the years. By lovely I just mean helpful; not sure how long they've been boating but they've looked over the boats/info I'm intrigued by, offered advice and and confessed being unsure as and when. They've altered their boat in ways I certainly could not !

 

All I can do thus far is trawl the internet and I live in a house, so I have wealths of potentially great, wrongful, or contradictory advice each time I hit the Enter key.

 

Really appreciate your input

 

I meant to say I would not use the same surveyor that surveyed it last time and not “broker”

 Pick your own surveyor and don't be influenced by broker or seller, I know it’s difficult and also difficult to find boaters who generally know something about boats and have not bought them just to live on over the last couple of years, take your time and ask questions to the broker, seller, surveyor and be 100% happy with their answers. As people on here and social media do not have “eyes on” the boat like you. Good luck and if it doesn’t feel right walk away, there will be other boats for sale for you to consider.

Edited August 19, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[robtheplod]

I would imagine CCing in London isn't easy?

[Tracy D'arth]

Its very small but well appointed.  Its very thin steel. Won't last very long.

I would think expensive for what it is but that's London prices for you.

Offer £14k  to £16k?

[Beans]

4 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I would imagine CCing in London isn't easy?

Likely not ! I am willing to sacrifice starfishing for easier mooring on a 23ft.

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Its very small but well appointed.  Its very thin steel. Won't last very long.

I would think expensive for what it is but that's London prices for you.

Offer £14k  to £16k?

The plan was start at £15k, so I'm glad we agree there. Hopefully with vigilance she'll last a decent while !

[Lady M]

It's certainly cute.  No fridge or space for one, and nearly all the storage space is in lockers.

[Tracy D'arth]

You won't get much solar on that tiny roof! Do consider how you are going to keep batteries fully charged, that is the hard part of living aboard off grid.

[Lady M]

Although with no fridge or TV to drain them, the need for battery power will be lower than on many boats.

[Laurie Booth]

3 hours ago, Beans said:

Hi, all. Appreciate your swift input.

 

It's a 1996 built by Morse Marine, with Beta Marine 28 engine. I was reluctant to post the link but here:

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-traditional-for-sale/734583

23ft is certainly small but in my view I will not need much, based on how I like to live and the fact that I have family and friends surrounding helps with the onboard minimalism. Of course seeing it for myself will tell me if this is just a fantasy. 

 

Survey wise the readings of the hull were between 4.1-4.5mm, so I think insurance wise, here's hoping not much has changed since the last survey.

(thank you @Tracy D'arth, @Arthur Marshall, @Crewcut)
 

Lovely boat. I can see why you like it.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Delightful, so much 'squoze' into such a small space - but - still too small for a liveaboard.

[cheesegas]

3 hours ago, robtheplod said:

I would imagine CCing in London isn't easy?

I CC around the south east, between Leighton Buzzard, Brentford, and then up to the Stort which includes London. And a quick stint up the Thames in summer. I don't usually spend much time in central London but last year because of work being where it was, I did spend a couple of months going through from west (Greenford/Perivale) to East (Tottenham). Never struggled for a place to moor except in the busiest areas (Little Venice, Camden, St Pancras, Victoria Park) and no issues with the long queues at water points I keep on hearing about on the forums. I think the majority of people who think it's difficult have never done it. The only difficulty is if you have a pump out; for those two months, only one or two out of 4 central-ish London CRT ones were functional at a time. 

 

23ft in my opinion is a very small living space with little space for storing tools etc, and you'll struggle for solar power and roof storage with the amount of space you have enough for around 350w I expect. Without running the engine/generator, you'll probably only be able to run a fridge during 6 months of the year, and will have to watch your power usage.

[Lady M]

It's Ok, there isn't enough room for a fridge!

[Crewcut]

What a cutie, I think we had visions of a decrepit old Springer but the steel is still very thin. If you go ahead & the survey shows the steel to be less than 4mm, third party insurance is readily available assuming you're ok with the risks of thin steel & self-insuring your own boat. Making your bed up every day from the seating would become tiresome quickly but you could get rid of the shelves opposite the woodburner, have a bigger seat & leave the bed made up? You could possibly find space for a small 12v compressor coolbox somewhere (Alpicool are good value) but then you'll need the battery capacity to run it. Good luck...👍

[Ianws]

12v coolboxes usually run 24/7 so you need to remember to switch them off.

[Laurie Booth]

37 minutes ago, Ianws said:

12v coolboxes usually run 24/7 so you need to remember to switch them off.

Just put it on a timer. I do 30 mins on 60 mins off.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Laurie Booth

[Ianws]

Mine is hardwired. What timer works on a 12v coolbox. Not being arsey, genuinely interested.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Ianws

[Crewcut]

Compressor coolboxes like the one I suggested above cycle on & off with a thermostat, like domestic fridges. I'd usually turn them off at night...

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Ianws said:

12v coolboxes usually run 24/7 so you need to remember to switch them off.

Not the  Crewcut got there first 

[cheesegas]

1 hour ago, Ianws said:

12v coolboxes usually run 24/7 so you need to remember to switch them off.

Cheap 12v coolboxes have a Peltier element in there, which doesn't run on a thermostat and pulls about 10a all the time. Expensive ones have a compressor which has a thermostat, just like a full size fridge. They draw 5-6a only when the compressor is running, no need to turn it off.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ianws said:

Mine is hardwired. What timer works on a 12v coolbox. Not being arsey, genuinely interested.

You'd need something like this along with a suitably rated relay. I have one hardwired into the lighting circuit so I can have them on a timer if I'm away from the boat for a couple of days.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heschen-Digital-Weekly-Programmable-Switch/dp/B071D9H3JY/