What are distance markers for?

[Greenpen]

Up and down stream from each lock on the Oxford Canal are white distance markers.   A white post with DIS painted black.   Not all remain!

 

I’ve heard two explanations for why they are there: priority given to the first approaching boat that gets to the marker and, secondly, to alert horse drawn vessels with no brakes that a lock was imminent.   
 

Neither explanation quite rings true.   Priority at the lock would depend on its water state and the markers are sometimes too far apart for approaching crews to see one another.   A loaded narrow boat would take about three to four boat lengths to stop but some markers are way further away from a lock than that.  
 

Any ideas?

[Bacchus]

I googled it and found a five page thread on here about them... https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/26919-dis-markers/

[Tracy D'arth]

Blow your bugle at the DIS marker and the lock is yours!

 

Unless you can give a fair crack of the whip as they used to in horse days.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[Pluto]

On the L&LC they had wooden posts, and I think this one at Bingley is the last one surviving. It also depended upon what sort of boat was involved as the notice shows. Somewhere, I think I have details of a prosecution for not obeying the byelaws.

[furnessvale]

4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Blow your bugle at the DIS marker and the lock is yours!

 

Unless you can give a fair crack of the whip as they used to in horse days.

I have always wondered what was there to stop a boatman blowing his horn or cracking his whip early to gain an unfair advantage?

[magnetman]

That old thread from 2009 was a good read. 

 

So the options were basically 'no overtaking', 'no mooring', 'priority'. 

 

 

It seems plausible that the markers could be unrelated to boating.

 

Maybe they are something to do with canal maintenance such as a guide for dredging crews. The concrete bank protection added in 1934 has details of depth to dredge cast into the top parts. It is pretty important to get dredging right and maybe as part of the upgrades it was decided that dredging depth should be different in certain areas around locks for whatever reason. 

 

 

 

 

[Derek R.]

Distance, Dispute, or Disinformation.

Take your pick. Could - and has been all three.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Derek R.

[Captain Pegg]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

That old thread from 2009 was a good read. 

 

So the options were basically 'no overtaking', 'no mooring', 'priority'. 

 

 

It seems plausible that the markers could be unrelated to boating.

 

Maybe they are something to do with canal maintenance such as a guide for dredging crews. The concrete bank protection added in 1934 has details of depth to dredge cast into the top parts. It is pretty important to get dredging right and maybe as part of the upgrades it was decided that dredging depth should be different in certain areas around locks for whatever reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

It isn't plausible that there weren't related to boating. There's consistent evidence in accounts from people who were actually there when canals were predominantly commercial waterways that the boat that passes the marker first has claim to the lock and that it applies to boats approaching in the same direction.

 

The stuff about them being 10 or 20 yards from the lock is potentially anomalous; those remaining that I have seen are more like 10 times that distance away from the lock.

 

If you look at the markings on the GU 1930s concrete banking you will see that they are used to indicate the point where the dredging depth changes on approach to locks and other features.

 

[magnetman]

 

In the 2009 thread I was the first person to suggest they were overtaking markers which is still what I think they are. 

 

No harm having general discussion as it brings up extra info such as your comment about the dredging depth markings. 

screenshot 

Edited July 30, 2023 by magnetman

[Greenpen]

Yes, the earlier thread is interesting but inconclusive.     

 

The distance markers on the Oxford are cast iron triangular shaped pillars with three slightly splayed legs, about a metre tall although I have not measured one accurately.   I am told the legs were attached to a triangular frame but I've not seen this for myself.   The one on the photograph was the upstream marker for Banbury lock and was removed by the contractors building a new entertainment centre.    It was extracted violently and lacks the triangular base and half of one of its legs!

 

Distance markers are missing from many locks now but there is a pair up and downstream of Broadmoor lock, which is five locks above Banbury.   I have measured these accurately and the upstream post is 75m (82 yds) from the top gate and the downstream one 273m (299 yds) below the bottom gate.      The downstream one is not visible from the lock as there is a curve in the cut.   The upstream one is visible.    

 

If they were priority, overtaking or stopping markers why would their distances from the lock be so different?    The north part of the Oxford was extensively modernised by shortening it is the 1830s but the south part remained unaltered so markers south of Braunston are unlikely to be associated with dredging or unseen engineering of any sort.     Nothing about the markers make sense to me.   

 

The upstream marker at Banbury lock, the one in the photograph, must have been about 300m from the lock and probably not visible from the top gate as the line of the cut deviates to the left.   I have been told the downstream Banbury lock marker is still there but I can't find it!    The bank is overgrown and given that it could be anywhere along a 300m stretch, it is not feasible to hack the plants back!    When winter comes it may emerge from the dying undergrowth.

 

All ideas gratefully received.   The post pictured (twice by mistake)  in the  first post is at Tooley's Historic Boatyard in Banbury, displayed in a flower barrel!

 

 

[magnetman]

Another possibility could be that if you choose to tie the boat up inside these markers overnight (or however long they rested, if at all) there would be a fine applied via byelaws. 

 

In other words an early form of No Mooring sign. Being moored near a lock may give you an advantage over others as you can be woken by the action of the lock.

 

The DIS markers could be positioned at the point where lock operation does not have a significant effect on moored craft thus removing the bias which could be caused by people deliberately having a rest close to a lock in order to be woken up by the next lock movement and thereby cause a scramble for the lock and unnecessary delays and possibility of antisocial behaviour problems. 

 

 

Whatever they were for it was serious and they are very difficult to vandalise. Of course modern idiot property developers can do that no problem. 

The one further away involving a curve before the lock adds credence to the 'control zone' theory. I'm pretty sure mooring on a bend would be frowned upon for obvious reasons especially near a lock. 

 

 

Boundary markers indicating where the lock keeper has full control and jurisdiction over the behaviour of boaters. 

 

Same thing happens on the Thames. Lock keeper is in charge of the lock and activities in the lock cuts and laybys. You have to do what the lock keeper tells you. By order 

 

 

Of course being painted white they are visible in low light levels which helps with the enforcement process. 

 

No Stopping. Double yellow line. 

 

 

 

All just theories but its fun theorising. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by magnetman

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Another possibility could be that if you choose to tie the boat up inside these markers overnight (or however long they rested, if at all) there would be a fine applied via byelaws. 

 

In other words an early form of No Mooring sign. 

 

The 'danger zone' would vary according to each lock and perhaps some places were more likely to be adopted as short stop moorings than others so the DIS marker was further away. 

 

 

 

Whatever they were for it was serious and they are very difficult to vandalise. Of course modern idiot property developers can do that no problem. 

 

 

They may of course have performed all three functions at locks. No overtaking, no mooring, and no turning the lock on you allowed once inside the DIS marker. Boatmen might have demanded DIS markers just to maintain a degree of order and civilised behaviour in the vicinity of locks.

 

So it doesn't matter that much how far or how close they are to a lock, just that they exist 'somewhere'. So boats know they can legitimately moor overnight outside the markers but not inside. If inside the marker they can expect a lock set in their favour not to be turned on them. And if inside the markers, a faster (motor) boat won't pass them and nick 'their' open lock already set by their own lockwheeler.

 

Or if any of these rules are breached, the boatman can at least expect support from other boatmen in censuring the offender. Peer pressure to work within the guidelines. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by MtB
Finesse it.

[Tacet]

Tieing up against the towpath was pretty much unacceptable as it interfered with the horse drawn boats, which would have been quite common even in the mid 20th century on the south Oxford.  So I am doubtful it is a no mooring sign.

[magnetman]

5 hours ago, Tacet said:

Tieing up against the towpath was pretty much unacceptable as it interfered with the horse drawn boats, which would have been quite common even in the midas 20th century on the south Oxford.  So I am doubtful it is a no mooring sign.

Really? Aren't there plenty of old photos showing working narrow boats moored to the towpath? 

 

It wouldn't be very difficult to get a towing line over a moored boat. They must have been pretty adept at doing things with the ropes bearing in mind two way traffic. 

 

 

[David Mack]

On 30/07/2023 at 15:36, Greenpen said:

The north part of the Oxford was extensively modernised by shortening it is the 1830s but the south part remained unaltered so markers south of Braunston are unlikely to be associated with dredging or unseen engineering of any sort.

Only if the DIS markers predate the North Oxford shortening. I suspect cast iron posts of the type shown would date from later than the 1830s, although wooden ones might have been used earlier.