Can’t start our Beta Marine 38, stranded on the Ashby.

[Cartel]

We’ve been cruising for the last couple of weeks in our ex 2001 Canaltime hire boat that has a Beta Marine 38 engine, which has been running fine, however yesterday morning when we were about to set off, I turned the key in the control panel and it felt slightly stuck with some resistance, however it did turn over and we got underway.

When we moored up however, I found that I couldn’t turn the engine off with the stop button, the solenoid wasn’t working. After a bit of Googling, I checked the fuse for the panel and it had tripped. I reset it and the stop button worked. All good I thought.

This morning I tried to start the engine and when I turn the key, it trips the fuse and will not start.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as we’re currently stuck. Could something be at fault in the key barrel (which appears to be a sealed unit).

Thanks

Terry

[Tracy D'arth]

Prime electrical problem on Beta engines are the multiplugs in the loom from the control panel to the engine followed by the ignition switch especially if it is outside.

If the switch feel odd, it is almost certainly the problem.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Cartel said:

We’ve been cruising for the last couple of weeks in our ex 2001 Canaltime hire boat that has a Beta Marine 38 engine, which has been running fine, however yesterday morning when we were about to set off, I turned the key in the control panel and it felt slightly stuck with some resistance, however it did turn over and we got underway.

When we moored up however, I found that I couldn’t turn the engine off with the stop button, the solenoid wasn’t working. After a bit of Googling, I checked the fuse for the panel and it had tripped. I reset it and the stop button worked. All good I thought.

This morning I tried to start the engine and when I turn the key, it trips the fuse and will not start.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as we’re currently stuck. Could something be at fault in the key barrel (which appears to be a sealed unit).

Thanks

Terry

 

FWIW: Fuses blow, circuit breakers trip, and I think circuit breakers on the engine electrics are rarer, a fuse is much more likely.

 

In both cases they blow or trip more than once when too much current flows, and this is where I have different thoughts to Tracy. Too much current usually indicates some kind of short circuit and although not impossible a short circuit in the multi-plug is not a common fault. They usually suffer full or partial open circuits, so things don't work rather than blow fuses.

 

The way most ignition switches are constructed a short circuit to the metal case is, I feel, less likely, although if certain plastic parts inside it break and fall away you would get a short circuit. However, in that case I would expect the fuse to blow as you put it back in/reset the breaker or the instance you turn the master switch back on if you turned it off before resetting the breaker or changing the fuse.

 

If it does it as soon as you turn the switch to the first position (ignition on) it suggests that you have a sort circuit on the instrument/warning lamp circuit.

 

If it does it when you turn to "heat" it suggests the short is on the glow plug circuit.

 

If it does it when you turn to start, then it suggests the problem is in the start circuit or the stater solenoid.

 

If you have fairly easy access to the back of the panel you can photo the back of the switch, take the main cable off and then, in turn, pull each of the others off and touch them to the main cable. If they all energise what they should and the fuse does not blow, then the switch is faulty. If the fuse blows when on particular lead is connected, then whatever that lead feeds has the fault.

 

[Cartel]

Thanks for your advice, here’s a photo of the rear of the panel. I found the live feed but not sure how to proceed to check the faulty line. Should I remove the live feed and touch it to the other connectors on the rear of the key barrel (on the left side with the red wire running into it)?

[Tony Brooks]

I think the live feed is the brown with a white stripe.

 

I would disconnect that and ensure that it cannot short to metal, and then replace the fuse. 

If it blows, then the problem is between that terminal and the fuse.

 

If it does not blow, then disconnect the wires on another terminal and touch the brown and white wire to each of them. If the fusel blows, then the one that blew the fuse is the circuit with the fault. If the fuse does not blow, then put the wires back on the switch and move onto another terminal and repeat.

 

If you are confident, you could take all the wires off and connect an ohmmeter or the meter set to BEEP and test between the brown and white SWITCH terminal and the switch metal case. Twisting the key to check all positions. In all cases the meter should not beep or show an I on the right of the screen. If any positrons shows close to zero ohms, then the switch has an internal short.

 

The wiring as far as I can see looks OK

[Jen-in-Wellies]

There is a wiring diagram of your panel on page 74/75 of this manual:

https://betamarine.co.uk/resources/Operators_Manuals/10-115T-KC-OM/#page=73

To bypass bits of the key switch, connect from the wire (brown with white stripe) going to terminal 30 on the key switch to terminal 19 (red wire) to heat the glow plugs. Connect from terminal 30 wire to terminal 17 (white with red stripe) to turn the starter motor. Connect from terminal 30 to terminal AC to turn on all the things like instruments and lights that should be on with the engine active.

Jen

 

[Tracy D'arth]

If the stop position on the switch did not work when you went to stop the engine  and then it blew the fuse its a good bet that the switch is broken inside.

[Eeyore]

23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If the stop position on the switch did not work when you went to stop the engine  and then it blew the fuse its a good bet that the switch is broken inside.

The stop button appears to have a permanent live feed (white) from the incoming live terminal on the switch, but need a clearer photo to verify.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Eeyore

[Cartel]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

To bypass bits of the key switch, connect from the wire (brown with white stripe) going to terminal 30 on the key switch to terminal 19 (red wire) to heat the glow plugs. Connect from terminal 30 wire to terminal 17 (white with red stripe) to turn the starter motor. Connect from terminal 30 to terminal AC to turn on all the things like instruments and lights that should be on with the engine active.

Jen

 

So, if I’m correct, as I turn the key to heat up the glow plugs (this seems to be ok as the beeper sounds and the row of lights come on at the bottom), I leave this in the on position, then I can make a brief connection between the brown/white stripe cable on terminal 30 to terminal 17 white/red stripe to turn the starter motor. I though I’d clarify this before I do it, don’t want any fireworks!

Thanks for your help, by the way.

I think that something is broken in the key barrel and it’s shorting out when I turn it fully to fire the starter motor.

Terry

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Cartel said:

So, if I’m correct, as I turn the key to heat up the glow plugs (this seems to be ok as the beeper sounds and the row of lights come on at the bottom), I leave this in the on position, then I can make a brief connection between the brown/white stripe cable on terminal 30 to terminal 17 white/red stripe to turn the starter motor. I though I’d clarify this before I do it, don’t want any fireworks!

Thanks for your help, by the way.

I think that something is broken in the key barrel and it’s shorting out when I turn it fully to fire the starter motor.

Terry

If you suspect the problem is within the key switch when turned to start, take the white/red wire off terminal 17 and touch it to terminal 30. This should provide power to the starter motor, without the key being turned to the start position. This would be after heating the glow plugs on the key and having the switch in the on position. There may well be a few sparks when you do. It would eliminate if the short is in the key switch, or somewhere in along the way to the starter motor.

[Eeyore]

The fuse rating hasn’t been mentioned, or did I miss that? Usually a 40amp blade in the feed to the panel. 40 amp fuses can be difficult to source, so you often find lower rated ones in use; which are often fine… for a time.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Cartel said:

So, if I’m correct, as I turn the key to heat up the glow plugs (this seems to be ok as the beeper sounds and the row of lights come on at the bottom), I leave this in the on position, then I can make a brief connection between the brown/white stripe cable on terminal 30 to terminal 17 white/red stripe to turn the starter motor. I though I’d clarify this before I do it, don’t want any fireworks!

Thanks for your help, by the way.

I think that something is broken in the key barrel and it’s shorting out when I turn it fully to fire the starter motor.

Terry

 

Only now do we get a half decent description of the symptoms. The fuse blows/circuit breaker trips ONLY when the key is turned to start. Not in position 1 (instruments and W/lamps) or in position 2 (glow plugs).

 

The starter on most Betas are ticked underneath the angle iron that form the engine foot, so is low down. I would suggest the first thing to check is that a not so fat cable is still connected to the SMALL terminal in the starter and the cable has not chaffed through so the conductor is touching metal.

 

If that is fine, then disconnect that single smaller cable on its own terminal, insulate, and try again. If the fuse does not blow then it suggests a problem in the starter solenoid, it is low enough down to have been covered in water at some stage.

 

Note, that starter solenoid energise circuit just might contain a relay, and that could have shorted out.

[Cheshire cat]

Going off topic, Jen is there an operators Manual for the Beta 35? I tried to guess the URL but I'm getting access forbidden

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Going off topic, Jen is there an operators Manual for the Beta 35? I tried to guess the URL but I'm getting access forbidden

https://betamarine.co.uk/resources/Operators_Manuals/10-115T-KC-OM/#page=1

[Cheshire cat]

Thanks Ian, it doesn't cover Beta 35 specifically because it's no longer sold but lots of useful information in there none the less

[Cartel]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you suspect the problem is within the key switch when turned to start, take the white/red wire off terminal 17 and touch it to terminal 30. This should provide power to the starter motor, without the key being turned to the start position. This would be after heating the glow plugs on the key and having the switch in the on position. There may well be a few sparks when you do. It would eliminate if the short is in the key switch, or somewhere in along the way to the starter motor.

Ok, so I attached a small wire to terminal 17, turned the key to the on position, gave it a couple of seconds as I would when starting, touched this wire to terminal 30  (yep, a couple of sparks) then it tripped the fuse and the panel went off. 
The fuse on the engine block is 30A, this is still ok, it just trips the fuse for the control panel.

Not sure what to try next.

[Cartel]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:The starter on most Betas are ticked underneath the angle iron that form the engine foot, so is low down. I would suggest the first thing to check is that a not so fat cable is still connected to the SMALL terminal in the starter and the cable has not chaffed through so the conductor is touching metal.

 

If that is fine, then disconnect that single smaller cable on its own terminal, insulate, and try again. If the fuse does not blow then it suggests a problem in the starter solenoid, it is low enough down to have been covered in water at some stage.

 

Note, that starter solenoid energise circuit just might contain a relay, and that could have shorted out.

The small cable on the starter seems fine, gave it a clean and put it back on.

The solenoid also seems to be working as I can hear it click when the key has turned on the instrument panel and I press the stop button.

The water level in the bilge is always low as I regularly pump it out, never more than 10mm deep.

[Tracy D'arth]

Is it possible that the key switch is broken inside and that you have got the preheaters energised all the time with the ignition and when you short to 30, the starter solenoid, the extra current trips the panel breaker?   What rating is that breaker?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Just now, Cartel said:

Ok, so I attached a small wire to terminal 17, turned the key to the on position, gave it a couple of seconds as I would when starting, touched this wire to terminal 30  (yep, a couple of sparks) then it tripped the fuse and the panel went off. 
The fuse on the engine block is 30A, this is still ok, it just trips the fuse for the control panel.

Not sure what to try next.

That won't eliminate the key switch in the way that removing the wire from terminal 17 and touching it to 30 would.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Cartel said:

The small cable on the starter seems fine, gave it a clean and put it back on.

The solenoid also seems to be working as I can hear it click when the key has turned on the instrument panel and I press the stop button.

The water level in the bilge is always low as I regularly pump it out, never more than 10mm deep.

Wrong solenoid. Not the stop solenoid but the big one on the starter motor.

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Is it possible that the key switch is broken inside and that you have got the preheaters energised all the time with the ignition and when you short to 30, the starter solenoid, the extra current trips the panel breaker?   What rating is that breaker?

Sounds a good idea to me

[Cartel]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

That won't eliminate the key switch in the way that removing the wire from terminal 17 and touching it to 30 would.

 

Just tried that and same result, the fuse tripped.

Thanks for all your help by the way.

[Cartel]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Is it possible that the key switch is broken inside and that you have got the preheaters energised all the time with the ignition and when you short to 30, the starter solenoid, the extra current trips the panel breaker?   What rating is that breaker?

The breaker that trips is the bilge pump one (the power to the bilge pump comes from the key block, not sure why they did it that way), I don’t know the rating, it’s a panel with all the 12v items connected to it, prob only about 5 amp.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Cartel said:

Just tried that and same result, the fuse tripped.

Thanks for all your help by the way.

OK, next one to try would be to replace the White/Red wire back on terminal 17 (to starter solonoid) and take off the the red wire from terminal 19 (to glow plugs). Turn the ignition switch to start and see if that trips the fuse. This will test @Tracy D'arth's theory that the glow plugs are always on.

Jen

1 minute ago, Cartel said:

The breaker that trips is the bilge pump one (the power to the bilge pump comes from the key block, not sure why they did it that way), I don’t know the rating, it’s a panel with all the 12v items connected to it, prob only about 5 amp.

More new information! That makes no sense. Where is the wire to this breaker connected?

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Had a similar problem recently, the barrel of the key had turned round due to being loose when the key gets turned.

It had stretched a busy connection wire(s) on the back of the barrel to the point of arcing/ touching wires.

I twisted the barrel back and tightened the locking nut. Alls good now.

Just might be worth checking or considering if this has happened to yourself.