Batteries and their technologies, Which is best ?

[LadyG]

I had to check on this:

Farm Fresh To You,.   another of life's mysteries I have no desire to solve.

Edited April 24, 2023 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I had to check on this:

Farm Fresh To You,.   another of life's mysteries I have no desire to solve.

 

LadyG, what has this to do with the topic?

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

LadyG, what has this to do with the topic?

I would guess that Jo is referring to battery hens.

[LadyG]

35 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I had to check on this:

Farm Fresh To You,.   another of life's mysteries I have no desire to solve.

Weep, it was FTFY, sorry about that .

I thought we had all the answers and discussed batteries fully, and we were going off topic, aparently not.

I've got all AGM s because I knew I would kill FLA by neglect. They seem to be about the same now as four years ago, though I'm very careful in winter (not in summer when they manage fine with solar input).

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by LadyG

[magnetman]

Lithium Titanate batteries v Lead Acid is like Neodymium Iron Boron magnets v Strontium Ferrite. Things move on. 

 

No comparison.

 

 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Lithium Titanate batteries v Lead Acid is like Neodymium Iron Boron magnets v Strontium Ferrite. Things move on. 

 

No comparison.

 

 

LTO batteries are also lower energy density than LFP and higher cost, last time I looked the difference was about 2x for both (titanium isn't cheap) -- and the cost difference is if anything increasing as LFP volumes go up and costs drop, but LTO ones don't because they're a tiny niche market.

 

They can also accept very high charge/discharge rates, again maybe useful for EVs but not boats. And work well far below 0C, also not really useful for boats for obvious reasons... 😉

 

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/nmc-lfp-lto-battery-explained/

https://www.ecolithiumbattery.com/lithium-titanate-battery/

https://www.takomabattery.com/lto-vs-lifepo4/

 

So yes, great technology for a few small niche markets, but not boats... 😉

Edited April 24, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Very fast charging could be handy for boats in a lot of circumstances for example not having a diesel engine. 

 

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

I was warned away from lithium batteries by a professional who told me that, if one catches fire, it's almost impossible to put it out.

True for some chemistries but not true for the most common- lithium ferrophosphate. The important take-home message is that there is a wide range of lithium battery chemistries and they have completely different characteristics. Calling a battery “lithium” is like using “fossil fuel” as a descriptor, without specifying whether you mean gas, petrol, diesel etc

[magnetman]

NCA and NMC are a bit iffy. LFP is safe as houses. LTO is safe as castles and Ian D doesn't like them because he didn't put them under the floor of his boat. 

 

 

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Very fast charging could be handy for boats in a lot of circumstances for example not having a diesel engine. 

 

But only once there's a high-power charging infrastructure, very unlikely on the canals both for cost/infrastructure and need reasons -- unlike cars you don't really need to charge from 0% to 100% (or whatever) in 10mins or so (at 350kW!) while waiting impatiently at a motorway services... 😉

 

Taking the Winston LFP cells as an example, the recommended "carefree" charge current is 0.5C (2 hours) but with care and temperature monitoring they can be charged at 3C, meaning 20mins. Plenty fast enough for boats -- but will still need hefty charging infrastructure, also EV-style (meaning expensive...) charging hardware on the boat as well as on shore. This comes "for free" with EVs because the inverter/motors have to be able to deal with >100kW to drive the car, but the same is not true for boats with 5x less power.

 

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

NCA and NMC are a bit iffy. LFP is safe as houses. LTO is safe as castles and Ian D doesn't like them because he didn't put them under the floor of his boat. 

 

 

No I don't like them because for most people they're the wrong solution for this particular problem -- the advantages that you keep pushing are useless for boats (or EVs), and they're a lot more expensive and harder to find than LFP.

 

But if you got some dirt cheap secondhand, that's absolutely fine for you... 🙂

Edited April 24, 2023 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Does this mean in the future we’ll not just have folk hanging around on water points with the tap ‘off’ filling with water but boats ‘slowly’ charging their F’KB’s?

 

 

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, Mr Batteries Ltd said:

I wouldn't say spamming, Im interested, will it benefit my business moving forward with purchasing, and deciding which technologies to put my investment into ? i certainly hope so as i would like to be a key supporter for the boating community, and i hope i can also help members on here with my experience, and advice. 

 

I am working with the current chairman of the electric boat association, and i would like my business to support electric propulsion in the future, so what better way for me to understand what the boating community wants than to join and be a part of it. This i feel in the only way to understand what is required. 

 

So yes, if allowed i will help and advise, but if sales can be made along the way, and y our members can save on batteries, cables, and Victron products, then i hope can help.

 

We used to have Trojan T105 LA batteries. I thought they were quite good. Now we have LiFePO4 cells and they are in a completely different league, fantastic. Took a punt on 12 x 200Ah prismatic cells from China a couple of years ago.

HOWEVER what a lot of people do is drop a Li battery into a system that was designed for LA batteries, and that creates a lot of problems for charging since how Li likes to be charged is completely different from LA.

LA likes to be kept full, Li doesn't. LA charges slowly, Li charges very fast virtually right to the end.

So in my opinion, dropping in Li to a system designed for LA is always going to be problematic, even if it has a good BMS.

For example, Li will take full alternator output for hours, resulting in the alternator getting very hot and having a very short life. A big alternator under full load can adversely affect even a fairly big engine when it is idling or at slow revs - high belt forces = slippage and big side load on the pulleys, engine struggling.

Alternator charging until the BMS shuts off can cause a big load dump spike of perhaps 80 volts that will likely damage the boat's equipment and the alternator.

In summer with light usage and long cruising days, the alternator will keep the Li at a high charging voltage which is bad for it - charging method Li should be to charge the battery then disconnect the battery (either actually, or by reducing the charge voltage to a low float value). Li does not like being held up at 3.65v/cell for hours on end.

There are some work arounds for these problems but they are all messy. The correct way to do it is to modify the charge sources so that they are optimised for charging Li, rather than to fudge around with an LA charging system and try to make it work for Li. This is why we have a custom alternator controller and BMS that is integrated into the Mastervolt combi inverter charger and the BMV712 battery meter. Everything works together and the system knows the SoC and there is a simple 3 way switch to select the desired charge state, either 50%, 80% or fully charged (the latter is useful for synchronising the BMV712)

 

There have been multiple threads on here about fudging LA charging systems to make them work with Li, all fairly unsatisfactory. The marine industry is crying out for a proper solution that integrates and controls all the charging sources, but that doesn't seem to exist.

[IanD]

Just now, Goliath said:

Does this mean in the future we’ll not just have folk hanging around on water points with the tap ‘off’ filling with water but boats ‘slowly’ charging their F’KB’s?

 

 

Next to a water point is one obvious place to put fast-ish "top-up" chargers -- meaning, maybe more than the 16A (7kW) or even 32A (14kW) ones that exist today. No need to stop any longer than it takes to fill the water tank.

 

For overnight a standard 16A point would be fine, though with enough of them to charge the multitude of E-boats that might exist by then. Of course the big problem is that neither CART or the government have any plan or strategy about how to build this or pay for it, so it's all pie-in-the-sky... 😞

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, Mr Batteries Ltd said:

The reason, I asked about cycles is there is a big debate within the industry at the moment, as you say a cycle is normally a discharge and recharge, in most technology cases down to 60% dod... but in Lithium you can discharge down deeper getting the full capacity of the battery. However, some manufacturers (Especially Cylindrical cell lithium) are saying that a cycle is any discharge, so those being advertised at 4000 cycles may only be taken down 20%. 

 

So i was asking to see what the forum think ? 

As I understand it with Li, the lifespan is mostly about the total Ah taken out (and put back in, obviously) rather than the number of cycles. But of course life can be shortened by ill treatment such as fast charging too cold, keeping the battery "up the voltage knee" (or down the voltage knee) for a prolonged period, storage at high temperatures. And of course there is calendar ageing too. I think most of us are hoping our Li will last our lifetimes in terms of cycle life, but possibly the calendar life will get ours first as we are not live-aboard.

Edited April 24, 2023 by nicknorman

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

it's all pie-in-the-sky... 

😞

Indeed it is. Work needs to be done on ensuring that canals continue to exist as useable infrastructure before worrying about what is turning the propeller. 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

We used to have Trojan T105 LA batteries. I thought they were quite good. Now we have LiFePO4 cells and they are in a completely different league, fantastic. Took a punt on 12 x 200Ah prismatic cells from China a couple of years ago.

HOWEVER what a lot of people do is drop a Li battery into a system that was designed for LA batteries, and that creates a lot of problems for charging since how Li likes to be charged is completely different from LA.

LA likes to be kept full, Li doesn't. LA charges slowly, Li charges very fast virtually right to the end.

So in my opinion, dropping in Li to a system designed for LA is always going to be problematic, even if it has a good BMS.

For example, Li will take full alternator output for hours, resulting in the alternator getting very hot and having a very short life. A big alternator under full load can adversely affect even a fairly big engine when it is idling or at slow revs - high belt forces = slippage and big side load on the pulleys, engine struggling.

Alternator charging until the BMS shuts off can cause a big load dump spike of perhaps 80 volts that will likely damage the boat's equipment and the alternator.

In summer with light usage and long cruising days, the alternator will keep the Li at a high charging voltage which is bad for it - charging method Li should be to charge the battery then disconnect the battery (either actually, or by reducing the charge voltage to a low float value). Li does not like being held up at 3.65v/cell for hours on end.

There are some work arounds for these problems but they are all messy. The correct way to do it is to modify the charge sources so that they are optimised for charging Li, rather than to fudge around with an LA charging system and try to make it work for Li. This is why we have a custom alternator controller and BMS that is integrated into the Mastervolt combi inverter charger and the BMV712 battery meter. Everything works together and the system knows the SoC and there is a simple 3 way switch to select the desired charge state, either 50%, 80% or fully charged (the latter is useful for synchronising the BMV712)

 

There have been multiple threads on here about fudging LA charging systems to make them work with Li, all fairly unsatisfactory. The marine industry is crying out for a proper solution that integrates and controls all the charging sources, but that doesn't seem to exist.

 

Solutions do exist, but they tend to be custom-built by/for the boatbuilders (e.g. Finesse/Ortomarine) not entirely off-the-shelf. One reason is that the market is small and the time and cost to develop such systems is high, so it just doesn't work to sell to people who want to buy a cheap off-the-shelf solution -- which is what most boaters on the UK canals really want. It does work if the end result is getting to sell an entire boat for a six-digit sum... 😉

 

There is an off-the-shelf solution that does exactly what you want targeted at the (much bigger much richer) yacht market, from Integrel. IIRC it costs around £10000... 😞

 

https://integrelsolutions.com/the-system/

 

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

As I understand it with Li, the lifespan is mostly about the total Ah taken out (and put back in, obviously) rather than the number of cycles. But of course life can be shortened by ill treatment such as fast charging too cold, keeping the battery "up the voltage knee" (or down the voltage knee) for a prolonged period, storage at high temperatures. And of course there is calendar ageing too. I think most of us are hoping our Li will last our lifetimes in terms of cycle life, but possibly the calendar life will get ours first as we are not live-aboard.

 

AFAIK there's no real "calendar life" with properly controlled and treated LFP batteries, so long as you don't mistreat them the lifetime is just determined by energy throughput.

Edited April 24, 2023 by IanD

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Solutions do exist, but they tend to be custom-built by/for the boatbuilders (e.g. Finesse/Ortomarine) not entirely off-the-shelf. One reason is that the market is small and the time and cost to develop such systems is high, so it just doesn't work to sell to people who want to buy a cheap off-the-shelf solution -- which is what most boaters on the UK canals really want. It does work if the end result is getting to sell an entire boat for a six-digit sum... 😉

 

There is a solution that does exactly what you want targeted at the (much bigger much richer) yacht market, from Integrel. IIRC it costs around £10000... 😞

 

https://integrelsolutions.com/the-system/

 

No that is not the sort of charging solution I envisage. It only covers engine charging. What about charging from shore power or solar or wind? If you are going to charge Li, then all the charging sources need to be controlled to suit Li - all "singing from the same hymn sheet"!

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Solutions do exist, but they tend a six-digit sum... 😉

 

There is a solution that does exactly what you want targeted at the (much bigger much richer) yacht market, from Integrel. IIRC it costs around £10000... 😞

 

https://integrelsolutions.com/the-system/

Did you miss a zero ? 

 

Commas arrr good for this. 

[magnetman]

Just now, nicknorman said:

 

No that is not the sort of charging solution I envisage. It only covers engine charging. What about charging from shore power or solar or wind? If you are going to charge Li, then all the charging sources need to be controlled to suit Li - all "singing from the same hymn sheet"!

 

Also the general idea is to do away with rotating electrics as a charging source. 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

No that is not the sort of charging solution I envisage. It only covers engine charging. What about charging from shore power or solar or wind? If you are going to charge Li, then all the charging sources need to be controlled to suit Li - all "singing from the same hymn sheet"!

 

The Integrel system also integrates -- at extra cost! -- with solar and shoreline charging, though that isn't really covered in the blurb. I can't remember if the Integral or an external controller (e.g. Victron Cerbo) is the overall system master (talking to the BMS, obviously), but there is one and is does what you want because many yachts have exactly the same needs. Add all that and the solar and shoreline charging in and the cost probably goes up at least another 50%, maybe 100%.. 😞

 

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Also the general idea is to do away with rotating electrics as a charging source. 

 

So what do you envisage providing the charging power in the depths of winter, unless you're plugged in to the shore?

Edited April 24, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

The Integrel system also integrates -- at extra cost! -- with solar and shoreline charging, though that isn't really covered in the blurb. I can't remember if the Integral or an external controller (e.g. Victron Cerbo) is the overall system master (talking to the BMS, obviously), but there is one and is does what you want because many yachts have exactly the same needs. Add all that and the solar and shoreline charging in and the cost probably goes up at least another 50%.. 😞

 

 

So what do you envisage providing the charging power in the depths of winter, unless you're plugged in to the shore?

Don't go boating. Wood fire can do the heating and cooking provided you are moored in a wooded area.

 

Or be sensible, live in a house and mothball the boat for the cold dark.months. 

 

Rain plate generators look interesting. 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Peddle power?

while the boats parked up at night peddle the energy back into the batteries. 

[IanD]

Just now, magnetman said:

Don't go boating. Wood fire can do the heating and cooking provided you are moored in a wooded area.

 

Or be sensible, live in a house and mothball the boat for the cold dark.months. 

 

Rain plate generators look interesting. 

 

 

If by "rain plate generators" you mean the idea of extracting energy from falling rain, this falls into the same category as the "power-generating pavements" that were proposed to extract energy from people walking -- yes they work in theory, but the power yield per square metre (or more to the point, per dollar!) is ludicrously small for a boat, there isn't enough roof area or head of water... 😉

 

Until there are charging stations, narrowboaters in particular will need another power source other than solar/wind, and at the moment the only solution is an onboard generator. Yes it's expensive and needs fuel and rotates, but unless you only want to boat in the summer -- and even then if you want to boat all day -- it's a necessary evil... 😞

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Peddle power?

while the boats parked up at night peddle the energy back into the batteries. 

Drug dealers always nice to see 

 

 

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Peddle power?

while the boats parked up at night peddle the energy back into the batteries. 

An average human can generate 100W (normal person) - 200W (track cyclist) for long periods, so if you cycled all night you might get 1kWh for your pains... 😞

 

In comparison the solar panels you can fit on a narrowboat roof (abut 2kWp maximum) would give about 7kWh average in summer and 1-1.5kWh in winter -- and this winter yield is usually not going to be enough for a liveaboard.

 

Numbers matter... 😉

Edited April 24, 2023 by IanD