Not looking good for us

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

But ability to pay is also correlated to purchase price - which will depend significantly on age and also other factors. eg does it have an engine? a BSSC? etc

All sorts of factors could be included if it makes sense to do so -- but the key is that the information needs to be simple to obtain (preferably already available to CART), not need a lot of manpower/cost to check, and be difficult to falsify. Which immediately eliminates any kind of toll collection...

 

The bigger the range of license fees -- from a small old narrowboat moored in the sticks owned by a lone pensioner up to a big spanking new wideboat moored in a honeypot owned by somebody with deep pockets -- the less painful it would be for the first category and the more painful it would be for the second category. Guess which one would make the most noise? 😉

[Arthur Marshall]

4 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

It sounded like a criticism. If I was wrong, i apologise. 

 

 

Wasn't meant as such. If I was unnecessarily grumpy about your comment, I do too! No harm done in either direction.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

All sorts of factors could be included if it makes sense to do so -- but the key is that the information needs to be simple to obtain (preferably already available to CART), not need a lot of manpower/cost to check, and be difficult to falsify. Which immediately eliminates any kind of toll collection...

 

The bigger the range of license fees -- from a small old narrowboat moored in the sticks owned by a lone pensioner up to a big spanking new wideboat moored in a honeypot owned by somebody with deep pockets -- the less painful it would be for the first category and the more painful it would be for the second category. Guess which one would make the most noise? 😉

I suggest you read the 2005(?) Oxera report and subsequent BW consultations.  They are probably still lurking somewhere on the interweb. At the very least it might go some way to explain why what you are suggesting was not adopted more than a decade ago.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

The bigger the range of license fees -- from a small old narrowboat moored in the sticks owned by a lone pensioner up to a big spanking new wideboat moored in a honeypot owned by somebody with deep pockets -- the less painful it would be for the first category and the more painful it would be for the second category. Guess which one would make the most noise? 😉

My bet would be OAP!

[IanD]

58 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I suggest you read the 2005(?) Oxera report and subsequent BW consultations.  They are probably still lurking somewhere on the interweb. At the very least it might go some way to explain why what you are suggesting was not adopted more than a decade ago.

AFAIK the reason it wasn't adopted was screams of protest from boaters who would end up paying considerably more -- am I wrong or is this correct?
 

But if we're faced with the unavoidable fact that the average license fee has to go up (e.g. by 50%) to get more money for CART to maintain the system, the question is which is better -- keep the license fee system as is and raise the costs for everybody and risk driving poorer boaters off the canals, or change the fee structure to keep the cost increase down for the least well-off boaters (maybe to zero) while putting it up for well-off boaters (could be by 200% or more for a new wideboat in a honeypot area) to compensate.

 

In other words, make change equally painful for everyone -- which in reality means more painful for the poorest boaters -- or go by the principle that those with the broadest shoulders (and the most use of canal space i.e. boat square footage) should bear the heaviest load... 😉

Edited February 13, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Wouldn't it be nice if canals could get sensible government subsidy similar to the pointless activity which is air travel.

 

 

Technically nobody ever needs to travel by air. Its just a modern luxury. Billions of taxpayers pounds are spent subsidising this industry.

 

Something wrong here

 

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/01/aviations-7-billion-subsidy-per-year-in-uk-needs-to-be-dropped/

 

 

Mind you I suppose if all those Ibiza holidaymaker idiots ended up on inland waterways here it would rather displeasing !

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’m still waiting for someone to explain the source of the claimed/Legendary (I won’t say mythical) £100 million that’s needed to improve the waterways. 

A lot of the premise here (on the forum) for a license hike is based on this £100M figure. 
And the idea, here on the forum for some, is the license fee should cover it?
Is that £100M a CRT claim?

or a forum claim?

it’s been a £100M for a long time, no one gonna add inflation to it?

how much is it a figure plucked from the air? (or not?)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Goliath

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’m still waiting for someone to explain the source of the claimed/Legendary (I won’t say mythical) £100 million that’s needed to improve the waterways. 

A lot of the premise here (on the forum) for a license hike is based on this £100M figure. 
And the idea, here on the forum for some, is the license fee should cover it?
Is that £100M a CRT claim?

or a forum claim?

it’s been a £100M for a long time, no one gonna add inflation to it?

how much is it a figure plucked from the air? (or not?)

 

 

IIRC there was an analysis done quite a few years ago (maybe 10?) which estimated that the CART maintenance *backlog* was of the order of £100M, and presumably it's been increasing ever since and is bigger now.

 

It's equally obvious that CART are spending nowhere near enough on maintenance today (out of their >£200M annual budget) to stop the canals deteriorating further -- and that's before rapidly rising costs in the last few years which have made the gap between income and required expenditure even bigger, and now much higher inflation than previously.

 

Put these facts together and it's obvious that a pretty big increase is needed to catch up and reduce the backlog in a reasonable timescale, and that this is not going to be anywhere near as small as 10% or 20%, this simply won't make enough difference. To get such a big step change in the maintenance, it's not unreasonable to guess that CART income needs to go up by perhaps 50%, which is £100M per year.

 

If anyone has any better estimates then I'm sure everyone would love to see them, but I suspect that any much smaller number would just be wishful thinking... 😞

[Higgs]

The Trust model isn't working. If they increase the licence fees beyond inflation, there's no guarantee they'd cope. And are boaters just going to be left wondering what novel way of pricing will be the order of the day the following year, when maintenance targets are missed. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Higgs

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, Higgs said:

The Trust model isn't working. If they increase the licence fees beyond inflation, there's no guarantee they'd cope. And are boaters just going to be left wonder what novel way of pricing will be the order of the day the following year, when they miss maintenance targets. 

 

 

Break up the system and sell off good bits to vested interests such as marina owners ?

 

Nationalise (giggle where is the money giggle)

 

I have always assumed that the CRT was simply a stepping stone to full break up and privatisation of the system and that it was designed to fail. I'm terrible like that though. Hyper systemising.

 

 

A lot of demand for housing these days and population increase. You could use the land for eco homes and ecologically sound travel corridors (2wv not cars)

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

It’d be helpful/interesting/ to see a reasonable run down of the maintenance backlog. 

What does CRTs maintenance backlog include? 
what is high priority and low priority on that list?

 

I’m sure it could easily run into the £100M’s. Tag on a wish list and it’s billions. 


 

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Break up the system and sell off good bits to vested interests such as marina owners ?

 

Nationalise (giggle where is the money giggle)

 

I have always assumed that the CRT was simply a stepping stone to full break up and privatisation of the system and that it was designed to fail. I'm terrible like that though. Hyper systemising.

 

 

A lot of demand for housing these days and population increase. You could use the land for eco homes and ecologically sound travel corridors (2wv not cars)

 

10 to 1 a toll scheme wouldn't be a first choice. CRT would find it more difficult to wangle licence fees out of private marina moorers that never use the canal.

 

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Break up the system and sell off good bits to vested interests such as marina owners ?

 

Nationalise (giggle where is the money giggle)

 

I have always assumed that the CRT was simply a stepping stone to full break up and privatisation of the system and that it was designed to fail. I'm terrible like that though. Hyper systemising.

 

 

A lot of demand for housing these days and population increase. You could use the land for eco homes and ecologically sound travel corridors (2wv not cars)

 

I think CART was -- like many other similar policies linked to Austerity -- a way to get the canals off the government's books and make them SEP (Somebody Else's Problem), so if things start going badly wrong the government can point the finger of blame elsewhere ("you failed to bring in massive charitable donations!"), regardless of the fact that them cutting funding -- or not increasing it -- is one major cause of the problems.

 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? 😞

11 minutes ago, Goliath said:

It’d be helpful/interesting/ to see a reasonable run down of the maintenance backlog. 

What does CRTs maintenance backlog include? 
what is high priority and low priority on that list?

 

I’m sure it could easily run into the £100M’s. Tag on a wish list and it’s billions.
 

 

Can anyone track down the maintenance backlog analysis I referred to? I've heard it mentioned many times but never seen it...

Edited February 13, 2023 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

13 minutes ago, magnetman said:

A lot of demand for housing these days and population increase. You could use the land for eco homes and ecologically sound travel corridors (2wv not cars)

well they got David Orr CBE as a trustee so maybe there is an agenda for summat around housing. 
his background is housing, Scottish housing, national housing, European housing, alternative housing and on and on it goes. 

[magnetman]

It would have been better, if they were thinking more about the boats, to have had someone called David Arr in my opinion.

[Jon57]

2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

well they got David Orr CBE as a trustee so maybe there is an agenda for summat around housing. 
his background is housing, Scottish housing, national housing, European housing, alternative housing and on and on it goes. 

Won’t be long before CRT lead him up the garden path possibly.

[Alan de Enfield]

45 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’m still waiting for someone to explain the source of the claimed/Legendary (I won’t say mythical) £100 million that’s needed to improve the waterways. 

A lot of the premise here (on the forum) for a license hike is based on this £100M figure. 
And the idea, here on the forum for some, is the license fee should cover it?
Is that £100M a CRT claim?

or a forum claim?

it’s been a £100M for a long time, no one gonna add inflation to it?

how much is it a figure plucked from the air? (or not?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not typing out the whole report but some of the bullet points :

 

1) KPMG were commsssioned by the Government in 2011 to confirm that BW's business plan for the hand-over to C&RT was financially sound.

 

2) KPMG costed out the expenditure required to maintain the 'steady state'(maintain  the condition of the waterwatys as it was in 2011) at £103.9 million per annum

 

3) For several years the expenditure had fallen well below the required steady state.

 

4) BW / C&RTs planned expenditure was £82m for 2009/10 and £74.6m for 2012/12 

 

5) C&RTs business plan forecast they would spend less on maintenmance in their 1st 2 years, and when the 'charity giving' came on board they would aim for 'steady state' expenditure - It never happened.

 

6) A 'what do they know' request resulted in the figure that the backlog of maintennace wotk was in excess of £100m and would be increasing for several more years.

 

Since 2012 when C&RT 'took over' I think the accounts show that the steady state has not been attained, let alone any reduction in the back-log.

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

He wears a patch if that’s a help 🤷‍♀️
 

[Higgs]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

He wears a patch if that’s a help 🤷‍♀️
 

 

Underneath the drawn patch, he looks like a bloke that's come to the end of his useful working life and has been given something to do, to keep him out of the residential home. 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Since 2012 when C&RT 'took over' I think the accounts show that the steady state has not been attained, let alone any reduction in the back-log.

 

 

Thanks for taking time to write what you wrote 

I’m not in denial of the situation but just want more info and hopefully facts  rather than the hearsay/panic/towpath talk.  

 

my next question, well a repeat of an earlier question,  is what is on the backlog?

what’s on that list?

sometimes things on a back log can inevitably just wait (and never get fixed or need fixing/upgrading)
 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Goliath

[Allan(nb Albert)]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

IIRC there was an analysis done quite a few years ago (maybe 10?) which estimated that the CART maintenance *backlog* was of the order of £100M, and presumably it's been increasing ever since and is bigger now.

 

It's equally obvious that CART are spending nowhere near enough on maintenance today (out of their >£200M annual budget) to stop the canals deteriorating further -- and that's before rapidly rising costs in the last few years which have made the gap between income and required expenditure even bigger, and now much higher inflation than previously.

 

Put these facts together and it's obvious that a pretty big increase is needed to catch up and reduce the backlog in a reasonable timescale, and that this is not going to be anywhere near as small as 10% or 20%, this simply won't make enough difference. To get such a big step change in the maintenance, it's not unreasonable to guess that CART income needs to go up by perhaps 50%, which is £100M per year.

 

If anyone has any better estimates then I'm sure everyone would love to see them, but I suspect that any much smaller number would just be wishful thinking... 😞

Sorry, that mi

 

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I think CART was -- like many other similar policies linked to Austerity -- a way to get the canals off the government's books and make them SEP (Somebody Else's Problem), so if things start going badly wrong the government can point the finger of blame elsewhere ("you failed to bring in massive charitable donations!"), regardless of the fact that them cutting funding -- or not increasing it -- is one major cause of the problems.

 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? 😞

 

Can anyone track down the maintenance backlog analysis I referred to? I've heard it mentioned many times but never seen it...

There has never been a maintenance backlog analysis.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

14 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Underneath the drawn patch, he looks like a bloke that's come to the end of his useful working life and has been given something to do, to keep him out of the residential home. 

 

 

And maybe he’s smiling because he’s ‘feathered his own bed’ for his future residential home and care 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Sorry, that mi

 

There has never been a maintenance backlog analysis.

 

Was there not a 'what do they know' giving the total - but not an 'analysis' ?

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Sorry, that mi

 

There has never been a maintenance backlog analysis.

That's not what Alan just posted... 😉

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Sorry, that mi

 

There has never been a maintenance backlog analysis.

then we really don’t know’s what going on,

and we can only speculate?