Boat mover daily rates?

[PD1964]

46 minutes ago, Phlea said:

Thanks for all the sage advice.  It seems it'll be much cheaper to hire the skipper to move it.  Just feels a bit of a leap of faith though, entrusting my new purchase to someone else for a couple of weeks whereas a crane feels less 'risky'.

 

 

How old is the boat and do you feel like it’s been well maintained? Or is it an old boat that you feel may need maintenance? basically are you confident with it and that it will have no problems should you move it be water?

[Phlea]

9 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

How old is the boat and do you feel like it’s been well maintained? Or is it an old boat that you feel may need maintenance? basically are you confident with it and that it will have no problems should you move it be water?

I'm pretty confident that the boat's solid and should be reliable.  I've got RCR cover, and if push comes to shove I can drop things and go there to sort things out myself.  It's more trusting somebody else to moor it in a safe area, not cill it etc etc.  I'm pretty sure I'm just catastrophising but I do like to be in control of things...!

 

[Captain Pegg]

3 hours ago, Phlea said:

Thanks for all the sage advice.  It seems it'll be much cheaper to hire the skipper to move it.  Just feels a bit of a leap of faith though, entrusting my new purchase to someone else for a couple of weeks whereas a crane feels less 'risky'.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Crane and lorry IS less risky, which is why I use that method whenever I need a boat moved, if I can afford it.

 

I don't think your boat is likely to get stolen for example, but if it breaks down on the trip the boat mover still needs paying and YOU now have a problem with YOUR boat broken down possibly many miles away...

 

 

 

A paid skipper will be about one third the price based on what’s posted above.

 

In terms of risk find someone reputable to move your boat - plenty of clues in this thread - who has relevant certification, explicit liability insurance covering your boat and a degree of skills and knowledge covering various types of boat and waterways (and is also wise enough to know what they can’t do).

 

Finding ways to keep boats moving is part of the boat movers’ job (any fool can make a boat move, you should be paying for the skill and knowledge). However if I had a boat that broke down beyond repair I would recalculate my fee to cover the journey that was actually done.

 

In any business arrangement risk has to be reasonably shared.

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

A paid skipper will be about one third the price based on what’s posted above.

 

In terms of risk find someone reputable to move your boat - plenty of clues in this thread - who has relevant certification, explicit liability insurance covering your boat and a degree of skills and knowledge covering various types and boat and waterways (and is also wise enough to know what they can’t do).

 

Finding ways to keep boats moving is part of the boat movers’ job (any fool can make a boat move, you should be paying for the skill and knowledge). However if I had a boat that broke down beyond repair I would recalculate my fee to cover the journey that was actually done.

 

In any business arrangement risk has to be reasonably shared.

 

I would feel honour-bound to pay you the sum agreed for the move. You will after all, have set aside the time in your diary and should be paid for it. 

 

 

[Phlea]

6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

A paid skipper will be about one third the price based on what’s posted above.

 

In terms of risk find someone reputable to move your boat - plenty of clues in this thread - who has relevant certification, explicit liability insurance covering your boat and a degree of skills and knowledge covering various types and boat and waterways (and is also wise enough to know what they can’t do).

 

Finding ways to keep boats moving is part of the boat movers’ job (any fool can make a boat move, you should be paying for the skill and knowledge). However if I had a boat that broke down beyond repair I would recalculate my fee to cover the journey that was actually done.

 

In any business arrangement risk has to be reasonably shared.

 

Thanks.

 

What's the relevant certification that's needed?  Does a boat mover need to have some sort of professional skippers qualification, or be registered with CRT in some way?

 

Another interesting aspect I've come across in buying a new insurance policy for the boat is that the wording explicitly excludes cover for anybody I employ, which would include a 'boat mover'.  They insurance company have been helpful and agreed to a temporary extension to cover this risk once they've been supplied with details of the mover and their insurance.  Others may not be aware of this trap...

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Phlea said:

Another interesting aspect I've come across in buying a new insurance policy for the boat is that the wording explicitly excludes cover for anybody I employ, which would include a 'boat mover'.  They insurance company have been helpful and agreed to a temporary extension to cover this risk once they've been supplied with details of the mover and their insurance.  Others may not be aware of this trap...

 

As does every boat insurance policy I have ever had.

 

It is a standard clause - but for those that don't read the small print, it may be a surprise.

 

The employee (paid skipper, mechanic, yard boat operator etc etc) Must all have their own commercial insurance.

 

 

Extract from my Policy :

 

Your Insurers will not pay for:

 

2.1.1 anyone You employ in connection with the operation of Your Craft;

 

 

 

2.1.10 any liability incurred whilst Your Craft is being used by or is in the custody or control of:

i. shipyard operators or their employees;

ii. repair yard operators or their employees;

iii. slipway operators or their employees;

iv. yacht club operators or their employees;

v. marina operators or their employees;

vi. delivery skippers or their employees or crew;

vii. sales agencies or their employees; or

viii. any other similar organisations

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Phlea]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As dies every boat insurance policy I have ever had.

 

The employee (paid skipper, mechanic, yard boat operator etc etc) Must all have their own commercial insurance.

 

 

 

I don't feel comfortable relying on someone else's insurance to cover my risk, hence asking for the extension.  Thankfully ins co very helpful on this.

[Captain Pegg]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I would feel honour-bound to pay you the sum agreed for the move. You will after all, have set aside the time in your diary and should be paid for it. 

 

 

Very noble of you and I would have no problem with a mover who invoiced you for the full amount given it may have resulted in loss of earnings for them otherwise. I wouldn’t do so but that’s just a consequence of my preferences and circumstances.

 

I’ve currently got three part completed jobs as a result of the disruption caused by this week’s flooding and overall I’ll end up doing more hours than I used to calculate the fee to complete those jobs but I priced cognisant of the risks. So the fee is fixed.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Phlea said:

 

I don't feel comfortable relying on someone else's insurance to cover my risk, hence asking for the extension.  Thankfully ins co very helpful on this.

 

 

I'm sure they are, as if an item is insured twice (ie your insurer and the delivery skippers insurance) then the insurance company split the costs (in the event of a claim) between them. That'll be why they have asked for his insurance details,

[LadyG]

24 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Very noble of you and I would have no problem with a mover who invoiced you for the full amount given it may have resulted in loss of earnings for them otherwise. I wouldn’t do so but that’s just a consequence of my preferences and circumstances.

 

I’ve currently got three part completed jobs as a result of the disruption caused by this week’s flooding and overall I’ll end up doing more hours than I used to calculate the fee to complete those jobs but I priced cognisant of the risks. So the fee is fixed.

If you charged a day rate, plus expenses you would not be working for nothing!

You can provide an estimate . Providing a quote for a job with such a high degree of uncertainty is not necessary unless the client insists, in which case you should add at least 25%, or whatever is reasonable. Most clients just want the job done in a certain time frame, they don't want to re negotiate the cost half way through a job. If a major problem occurs then they need to be advised, but you should not be losing out .

PS when I had a little gardening business I was often asked for a quote, I usually refused, explaining that I would estimate.

They normally got charged the same amount for the same hours, week after week,  but a customer could, and sometimes they did, ask for "a bit more work", I had one who did this every single time I visited, at first I agreed, but one day I said, sorry I have no time, which was true, but client never asked me back. Depends on the client, but don't assume they will always deal fairly with you. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by LadyG

[Captain Pegg]

17 minutes ago, Phlea said:

 

Thanks.

 

What's the relevant certification that's needed?  Does a boat mover need to have some sort of professional skippers qualification, or be registered with CRT in some way?

 

Another interesting aspect I've come across in buying a new insurance policy for the boat is that the wording explicitly excludes cover for anybody I employ, which would include a 'boat mover'.  They insurance company have been helpful and agreed to a temporary extension to cover this risk once they've been supplied with details of the mover and their insurance.  Others may not be aware of this trap...

 

 

 

My business registration with CRT required that I have MCA Boatmaster or equivalent for my operation. I hold RYA IW Helmsman (and also happen to have  a CRT CAART certificate which allows to move CRT craft) both of which are Boatmaster equivalents for Cat A and B inland waters.

 

I’d expect any mover to hold RYA IW Helmsman but it really is a base on which to build experience (it’s a two day course).

 

In terms of insurance you’d be better off ensuring you’ve got marine legal cover which is what you’d use to claim against a mover’s liability insurance.

 

Bear in mind my liability insurance cost significantly more than your boat insurance and I’m effectively passing that cost on through my fee. Why buy it twice?

[Phlea]

37 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

My business registration with CRT required that I have MCA Boatmaster or equivalent for my operation. I hold RYA IW Helmsman (and also happen to have  a CRT CAART certificate which allows to move CRT craft) both of which are Boatmaster equivalents for Cat A and B inland waters.

 

I’d expect any mover to hold RYA IW Helmsman but it really is a base on which to build experience (it’s a two day course).

 

In terms of insurance you’d be better off ensuring you’ve got marine legal cover which is what you’d use to claim against a mover’s liability insurance.

 

Bear in mind my liability insurance cost significantly more than your boat insurance and I’m effectively passing that cost on through my fee. Why buy it twice?

Thanks for this.   So, the mover is required to have business registration with CRT. I’ll check this. My insurer’s not charging any extra for the extension, but I will check the legal insurance 

[LadyG]

46 minutes ago, Phlea said:

Thanks for this.   So, the mover is required to have business registration with CRT.

I don't think so.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I don't think so.

 

Careful about that. Thinking I mean....

 

Leads to trouble IME

 

Nice wine, this

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, Phlea said:

Thanks for this.   So, the mover is required to have business registration with CRT. I’ll check this. My insurer’s not charging any extra for the extension, but I will check the legal insurance 

 

That depends how you read CRT's Business Boating requirements. In my case my own boat is part of my business and that affects it's licence so it's definitely a requirement. If any mover required to purchase trade plates they would also need to have a CRT approved business proposal.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[John Brightley]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

PS when I had a little gardening business I was often asked for a quote, I usually refused, explaining that I would estimate.

As you say, everyone has their own preferences. Personally I've had a number of bad experiences, both in business and personally, over the years, with day rates or estimates, so I won't now employ anyone on other than a fixed price contract.

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

If you charged a day rate, plus expenses you would not be working for nothing!

You can provide an estimate . Providing a quote for a job with such a high degree of uncertainty is not necessary unless the client insists, in which case you should add at least 25%, or whatever is reasonable. Most clients just want the job done in a certain time frame, they don't want to re negotiate the cost half way through a job. If a major problem occurs then they need to be advised, but you should not be losing out .

PS when I had a little gardening business I was often asked for a quote, I usually refused, explaining that I would estimate.

They normally got charged the same amount for the same hours, week after week, but a customer could, and sometimes they did, ask for "a bit more work", I had one who did this every single time I visited, at first I agreed, but one day I said, sorry I have no time, which was true, but client never asked me back. Depends on the client, but don't assume they will always deal fairly with you. 

 

I don't do any work for nothing. I work for the fee I've agreed with the customer for moving a boat from A to B and I invoice when the boat arrives at point B. Timescale risks are mine but they aren't significant. I gave an example of how I work risk into a more complex journey earlier in the thread but the majority of trips are very predictable. The use of CanalPlan for the default duration from which I calculate the number of days on which to apply my rate is also an arbitrary way of ensuring transparent and fair pricing.

 

All I said was that in the hypothetical situation that I didn't get the boat to point B - for whatever reason - I wouldn't invoice the fee agreed for something I didn't achieve.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, John Brightley said:

As you say, everyone has their own preferences. Personally I've had a number of bad experiences, both in business and personally, over the years, with day rates or estimates, so I won't now employ anyone on other than a fixed price contract.

But in doing so you may find your choice of trader restricted, and you may pay over the odds since the trader is carrying all the risk (whether a particular risk materialises or not).