Volockies at Grindley Brook

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Volunteers could do it. Actually this is one of the fundamental problems,  calling them Lock Keepers. Which immediately gives the impression that it is THEIR lock. Not surprisingly this translates into the behaviour of some of them. “This is MY lock, you irritating boater”. Lock Assistants would have been so much better. After all, the professional Lock Keepers of old didn’t work the locks for boaters, they just maintained them (except large river locks etc)

 

You mean, just changing the name will fix your objection to them?

 

(but I agree, "lock assistant" might be a better description)

 

So you do agree that they are useful for all the other things I mentioned, meaning they're not "entirely superfluous"? 😉

 

Don't forget that the "professional Lock Keepers of old" were almost entirely dealing with seasoned professional boaters who needed no assistance or advice. Today is *very* different for many people -- not you, of course... 😉

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[nicknorman]

29 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

You mean, just changing the name will fix your objection to them?

 

(but I agree, "lock assistant" might be a better description)

 

So you do agree that they are useful for all the other things I mentioned, meaning they're not "entirely superfluous"? 😉

 

Don't forget that the "professional Lock Keepers of old" were almost entirely dealing with seasoned professional boaters who needed no assistance or advice. Today is *very* different for many people -- not you, of course... 😉

I agree that they can be helpful for the infirm or congenitally lazy. But they are not necessary nor in any way essential, as demonstrated by the fact that the canals operated quite satisfactorily under BW without them. Yes perhaps lock operation numbers have increased a bit in the last few years since the invention of the role, but not by any significant amount to justify a whole change in strategy and creation of new locking paradigm.

 

Put it another way, was the role created because boaters were asking for it, or did it come out of the Milton Keynes “Good Ideas” hat?

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I agree that they can be helpful for the infirm or congenitally lazy. But they are not necessary nor in any way essential, as demonstrated by the fact that the canals operated quite satisfactorily under BW without them. Yes perhaps lock operation numbers have increased a bit in the last few years since the invention of the role, but not by any significant amount to justify a whole change in strategy and creation of new locking paradigm.

 

Put it another way, was the role created because boaters were asking for it, or did it come out of the Milton Keynes “Good Ideas” hat?

 

So if you got rid of them, who would do what they do today?

 

Harking back to the days when "the canals operated quite satisfactorily under BW without them" is totally ignoring the fact that in those halcyon days of yore BW employed -- meaning, paid -- lengthsmen and lock keepers to do some of the niggly little tasks that the volockies do today.

 

Yes it would be great if this was still the case. Where do you suggest the money to pay all these extra people comes from, compared to volockies who do the job (admittedly not as well...) for nothing?

 

You seem to want to hark back to "the good old days" by ignoring the fact that the world has moved on. We have to live in the world we have (where funding after inflation is less and the canal network is considerably bigger than 50 years ago), not a fantasy one...

 

(and to answer your question, the role was almost certainly created as a way of getting necessary stuff done without CART having to pay people to do it...)

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Chris John said:

Yes because all volunteers are the same aren’t they? 
 

 

 

You really don't read what is written do you - you have tunnel vision and cannot accept anything outside your own experiences.

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You really don't read what is written do you - you have tunnel vision and cannot accept anything outside your own experiences.

 

That's rich coming from somebody who is slagging off the volockies of today but isn't even on the volocky-ridden canals (which you don't now like, as you often point out) any more, and hasn't been for some time... 😉

 

And who may be basing this volocky-hatred on one (very!) bad experience, completely ignoring any positive side to what volockies do -- and you accuse *him* of being blinkered? Really?

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Volunteers could do it. Actually this is one of the fundamental problems,  calling them Lock Keepers. Which immediately gives the impression that it is THEIR lock. Not surprisingly this translates into the behaviour of some of them. “This is MY lock, you irritating boater”. Lock Assistants would have been so much better. After all, the professional Lock Keepers of old didn’t work the locks for boaters, they just maintained them (except large river locks etc)

Or they could just call them what they have been called in every organisation I have volunteered with   That is simply volunteers.   Do they call people who cut back vegetation on a voluntary basis volunteer vegetation cutters or merely volunteers.

[nicknorman]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So if you got rid of them, who would do what they do today?

 

Harking back to the days when "the canals operated quite satisfactorily under BW without them" is totally ignoring the fact that in those halcyon days of yore BW employed -- meaning, paid -- lengthsmen and lock keepers to do some of the niggly little tasks that the volockies do today.

 

Yes it would be great if this was still the case. Where do you suggest the money to pay all these extra people comes from, compared to volockies who do the job (admittedly not as well...) for nothing?

 

You seem to want to hark back to "the good old days" by ignoring the fact that the world has moved on. We have to live in the world we have (where funding after inflation is less and the canal network is considerably bigger than 50 years ago), not a fantasy one...

 

(and to answer your question, the role was almost certainly created as a way of getting necessary stuff done without CART having to pay people to do it...)

The “good old days” was less than a decade ago. Not sure when the first volockies appeared but it can only have been 7 or 8 years ago. Not much difference in traffic between then and now. Have volunteers, yes of course. Have volunteer lock-interferers, no. And of course volockies are a self-fulfilling prophesy. You create volockies, people consequently don’t learn how to work locks, so you need volockies.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The “good old days” was less than a decade ago. Not sure when the first volockies appeared but it can only have been 7 or 8 years ago. Not much difference in traffic between then and now. Have volunteers, yes of course. Have volunteer lock-interferers, no. And of course volockies are a self-fulfilling prophesy. You create volockies, people consequently don’t learn how to work locks, so you need volockies.

 

Is it really less than 10 years since most of the lengthsmen and "professional lock keepers" were laid off? Evidence please...

 

How does having a volocky stop people watching them and learning how to work a lock?

 

On that basis, no teaching by demonstration -- pretty much, all teaching -- would ever work...

 

You're doing the usual cheap Daily Wail demonising of people who aren't like you (novice boaters) as stupid and feckless and unwilling/unable to learn. Have you ever actually talked to any, or do you just look down your traditional-boater nose at them in contempt?

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Chris John]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

You really dont add anything to the forum with your constant aggressive opposite stance to anything CRT-wise discussed.

Alan is referring to the ongoing CRT management failure of the Volockies, not the lockies themselves.

I stick by my previous summing up of your character.

Well am I sorry  because my contribution isn’t up to your expectations…..no not at all! 
(oh yeh you called me a tosser. Maybe look in the mirror) 

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You really don't read what is written do you - you have tunnel vision and cannot accept anything outside your own experiences.

Pot kettle etc etc 

[Iain_S]

21 hours ago, nicknorman said:

(snip)
... there are better volockies, but bottom line is there was no need for any volockies full stop. If people are struggling with locks, we offer to help. We don’t just sit in the queue grumping like some do.

The problem is that boaters who offer to help seem to be in the minority these days. If you do offer to help, are you not functioning as a volockie? Perhaps we should look on them as boatless boaters!

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 

yea but the first one is factually correct, the other two aren’t.

 

And CRT never did and would not have to pay employees to do what volunteers do, because they are entirely superfluous (save those in a role of organising traffic at long staircase flights).

Superfluous they may be, but personally I always find them a welcome sight. All us leisure boats are superfluous, really, we just add to the cost of maintaining the system, which would work a lot better if it was limited to residential boats that never moved, genuine continuous cruisers with their owners living aboard and working boats, and not crashed about by badtempered and argumentative holidayers on a tight schedule.

There again, there's nothing wrong with being superfluous. Ask any pensioner.

[Arthur Marshall]

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The “good old days” was less than a decade ago. Not sure when the first volockies appeared but it can only have been 7 or 8 years ago. Not much difference in traffic between then and now. Have volunteers, yes of course. Have volunteer lock-interferers, no. And of course volockies are a self-fulfilling prophesy. You create volockies, people consequently don’t learn how to work locks, so you need volockies.

Simply not true. Of course people learn how to work locks, unless you're going to have a lockie on every lock. What you have got is a stack more people involved in, and with an interest in, the continuation of the canals as a navigation. And we really need everyone on that side we can get, not alienating them by telling them they're a damn nuisance so they think we're a load if elitist egotists.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Iain_S said:

The problem is that boaters who offer to help seem to be in the minority these days. If you do offer to help, are you not functioning as a volockie? Perhaps we should look on them as boatless boaters!

I *always* offer to help, especially if they seem to be struggling. Last time we went up a flight of locks and came up behind an elderly lone female boater (who kindly let us overtake between locks), I stayed behind with her and worked the rest of the locks for her while she steered -- after asking, obviously. She was lovely and chatty and made me a very nice cup of tea -- but also said how nice it was to have somebody who helped rather than just glaring at her, so maybe Iain_S was right after all... 😞

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Is it really less than 10 years since most of the lengthsmen and "professional lock keepers" were laid off? Evidence please...

 

How does having a volocky stop people watching them and learning how to work a lock?

 

On that basis, no teaching by demonstration -- pretty much, all teaching -- would ever work...

 

You're doing the usual cheap Daily Wail demonising of people who aren't like you (novice boaters) as stupid and feckless and unwilling/unable to learn. Have you ever actually talked to any, or do you just look down your traditional-boater nose at them in contempt?

My point was it’s less than 10 years since volockies were invented. I have not demonised any novice boaters as being stupid or feckless or unable/unwilling to learn. Quite the opposite, I pointed out the experience at Claydon where the mostly hire boat traffic was all getting along fine until…

We always enjoy locking with hire boaters and new boaters, they are almost always happy, on holiday etc. It is the miserable and jaded owner types who sometimes meet the description you mentioned. Fortunately rarely, but it does happen. Maybe you are one, it does seem so from your posting style - but then again, the internet can be misleading so I won’t judge.

 

I would say that nearly all the people who enjoy the presence of volockies are not hirers. After all if you didn’t want to work locks, why hire a canal boat? And an obvious follow on from your setup would be to have volunteers steering their boats as well. And making the dinner. And doing the washing up, putting out the rubbish etc etc. In fact it would be best if the hirers stayed at home whilst the volunteers cruised the hire boats for them, maybe with a video link?

I suspect it is rather the old and infirm experienced folks who are finding the physical aspects of locking more difficult and or have realised that they can get someone else to do their work for them whilst they sit around getting fatter and lazier. Which is not a good look.

[Iain_S]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

So now some just enjoy trying to drowned the crew member in the welldeck as they hold onto the bow rope

Lock 5?

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

My point was it’s less than 10 years since volockies were invented. I have not demonised any novice boaters as being stupid or feckless or unable/unwilling to learn. Quite the opposite, I pointed out the experience at Claydon where the mostly hire boat traffic was all getting along fine until…

We always enjoy locking with hire boaters and new boaters, they are almost always happy, on holiday etc. It is the miserable and jaded owner types who sometimes meet the description you mentioned. Fortunately rarely, but it does happen. Maybe you are one, it does seem so from your posting style - but then again, the internet can be misleading so I won’t judge.

 

I would say that nearly all the people who enjoy the presence of volockies are not hirers. After all if you didn’t want to work locks, why hire a canal boat? And an obvious follow on from your setup would be to have volunteers steering their boats as well. And making the dinner. And doing the washing up, putting out the rubbish etc etc. In fact it would be best if the hirers stayed at home whilst the volunteers cruised the hire boats for them, maybe with a video link?

I suspect it is rather the old and infirm experienced folks who are finding the physical aspects of locking more difficult and or have realised that they can get someone else to do their work for them whilst they sit around getting fatter and lazier. Which is not a good look.

 

So you don't think "You create volockies, people consequently don’t learn how to work locks, so you need volockies." is demonising novice boaters as being unable/unwilling to learn? Who was it aimed at, then?

 

The last part is the same old straw man/slippery slope argument yet again, and your highlighted comments yet again show your contempt for other people who aren't like you -- last time it was volockies, then novice boaters, this time it's fat lazy old/infirm boaters, I'm just waiting for you to get onto single mothers...

 

I'm certainly not miserable and jaded (there you go, putting people into the wrong boxes again), I love canals and working locks -- unless I'm on my own, and they're double locks, and it's pouring with rain -- but many people *do* appreciate help from volockies -- clearly not you, but maybe you need to see other people's point of view... 😉

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

55 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Is it really less than 10 years since most of the lengthsmen and "professional lock keepers" were laid off? Evidence please...

 

How does having a volocky stop people watching them and learning how to work a lock?

 

On that basis, no teaching by demonstration -- pretty much, all teaching -- would ever work...

 

You're doing the usual cheap Daily Wail demonising of people who aren't like you (novice boaters) as stupid and feckless and unwilling/unable to learn. Have you ever actually talked to any, or do you just look down your traditional-boater nose at them in contempt?

When you teach by demonstration there are a number of things you do:

 

1.  Ensure those under instruction are concentrating not playing on their phone chatting, being inside the boat making a cuppa, etc.  I have never seen a volunteer do this.

 

2.  You explain what you are doing and why.  Again I have never seen a volunteer do this.

 

3.  You then check what they have seen and if they have understood what was done and said.  I have never seen a volunteer do this.

 

Basically no volunteer is teaching by demonstrating.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

When you teach by demonstration there are a number of things you do:

 

1.  Ensure those under instruction are concentrating not playing on their phone chatting, being inside the boat making a cuppa, etc.  I have never seen a volunteer do this.

 

2.  You explain what you are doing and why.  Again I have never seen a volunteer do this.

 

3.  You then check what they have seen and if they have understood what was done and said.  I have never seen a volunteer do this.

 

Basically no volunteer is teaching by demonstrating.

 

You really do work hard at picking the most negative way of looking at everything, don't you?

 

Yes there will be some people who do what you say, without having the volockie acting like a strict schoolteacher -- and why should they, they're not paid to do this?

 

(and even in school some kids ignore the teacher, look at phones, mess around -- does that mean schoolteachers are a waste of time?)

 

There will also be a lot of people -- probably the majority, but I'm sure you will disagree with this -- who do take notice of how the lock is worked and learn from it, because if they don't they'll be stuck when they get to the next lock where there isn't a volockie...

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So you don't think "You create volockies, people consequently don’t learn how to work locks, so you need volockies." is demonising novice boaters as being unable/unwilling to learn? Who was it aimed at, then?

 

The last part is the same old straw man/slippery slope argument yet again, and your highlighted comments yet again show your contempt for other people who aren't like you -- last time it was volockies, then novice boaters, this time it's fat lazy old/infirm boaters, I'm just waiting for you to get onto single mothers...

 

I'm certainly not miserable and jaded (there you go, putting people into the wrong boxes again), I love canals and working locks -- unless I'm on my own, and they're double locks, and it's pouring with rain -- but many people *do* appreciate help from volockies -- clearly not you, but maybe you need to see other people's point of view... 😉

No it isn’t demonising novice boaters, they are the victims of a flawed system.

 

I was going to mention one legged lesbian mothers of 12 children, but you stole my thunder.

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion of yourself.

[Jerra]

Just now, IanD said:

 

You really do work hard at picking the most negative way of looking at everything, don't you?

 

Yes there will be some people who do what you say, without having the volockie acting like a strict schoolteacher -- and why should they, they're not paid to do this?

 

There will also be a lot of people -- probably the majority, but I'm sure you will disagree with this -- who do take notice of how the lock is worked and learn from it, because if they don't they'll be stuck when they get to the next lock where there isn't a volockie...

Just doing something while somebody is there isn't by any stretch of anybody's imagination teaching by demonstration.   Yes the occasional person who is very keen will pick up something and over many watchings become proficient, but to claim volunteers are teaching novice boaters is just grasping at straws.

 

I have helped novices with locks early in their trip and got replies to the effect that it was clearer than the person they watched before the last lock and even why didn't the hire company walk them through and explain rather than just let them watch.

 

I do have the advantage of knowing how teaching and learning works.

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Just doing something while somebody is there isn't by any stretch of anybody's imagination teaching by demonstration.   Yes the occasional person who is very keen will pick up something and over many watchings become proficient, but to claim volunteers are teaching novice boaters is just grasping at straws.

 

I have helped novices with locks early in their trip and got replies to the effect that it was clearer than the person they watched before the last lock and even why didn't the hire company walk them through and explain rather than just let them watch.

 

I do have the advantage of knowing how teaching and learning works.

VLockies can't teach people anyone anything, it's not in their mandate. They have no real authority, unlike paid lockkeepers. I spoke to one last year who refused to help one boat down a lock because the owner refused point blank to get their small children, with no life jackets, to stop playing on the roof while in the lock and she couldn't take the responsibility of being involved if there was an accident. Nor would CRT accept liability if a boater sank his boat in the next lock and argued he was doing as he'd been taught.  Sensible people, new and interested in boating (which is 99% of all hirers and most new boatowners) will watch somone who appears to know what they're doing. We are, after all, grown up and can learn rather than have to be taught. Locks are not rocket science, they are extremely simple mechanisms.

There's no such thing as being proficient in lock working.  There's enough argument on here about leaving gates open or shut and the reasons for and against, running the nose up the gate in gear or staying back, opening both gates in a double lock for a single boat etc etc. You can't teach it because virtually every lock has different characteristics and every boat behaves differently.

Of course some of us explain things better than others. Whether the listener takes any notice, or should, is their business and anyway, as has been said before, you're as likely to get stupid advice from another boater as good, and how is a novice going to tell the difference?

[IanD]

51 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Just doing something while somebody is there isn't by any stretch of anybody's imagination teaching by demonstration.   Yes the occasional person who is very keen will pick up something and over many watchings become proficient, but to claim volunteers are teaching novice boaters is just grasping at straws.

 

I have helped novices with locks early in their trip and got replies to the effect that it was clearer than the person they watched before the last lock and even why didn't the hire company walk them through and explain rather than just let them watch.

 

I do have the advantage of knowing how teaching and learning works.

Ooh, look at you -- obviously nobody else has ever taught or learned anything... 😉

 

If you want volockies to behave like teachers, they need to be vetted, trained and paid appropriately. That's not going to happen, for several blindingly obvious reasons...

 

I really don't get this "anti-volockie" attitude -- are some people so incensed by one *daring* to work a lock with/for them without doffing their cap and asking permission first that they refuse to acknowledge that volockies generally provide a useful benefit to boaters and the canals? Because that's what it looks like...

 

They're volunteers of variable age and quality, not paid employees or teachers, doing something because they want to instead of for money. Is that really so hard to understand, or easy to condemn?

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

30 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

VLockies can't teach people anyone anything, it's not in their mandate. They have no real authority, unlike paid lockkeepers. I spoke to one last year who refused to help one boat down a lock because the owner refused point blank to get their small children, with no life jackets, to stop playing on the roof while in the lock and she couldn't take the responsibility of being involved if there was an accident. Nor would CRT accept liability if a boater sank his boat in the next lock and argued he was doing as he'd been taught.  Sensible people, new and interested in boating (which is 99% of all hirers and most new boatowners) will watch somone who appears to know what they're doing. We are, after all, grown up and can learn rather than have to be taught. Locks are not rocket science, they are extremely simple mechanisms.

There's no such thing as being proficient in lock working.  There's enough argument on here about leaving gates open or shut and the reasons for and against, running the nose up the gate in gear or staying back, opening both gates in a double lock for a single boat etc etc. You can't teach it because virtually every lock has different characteristics and every boat behaves differently.

Of course some of us explain things better than others. Whether the listener takes any notice, or should, is their business and anyway, as has been said before, you're as likely to get stupid advice from another boater as good, and how is a novice going to tell the difference?

That is basically my point.  To justify volunteers because "they are teaching novices" is just grasping at straws.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Jerra said:

That is basically my point.  To justify volunteers because "they are teaching novices" is just grasping at straws.

 

I never said they were *teaching* novices, you did. And has as been pointed out, volockies don't -- and can't -- be "lock teachers".

 

I said novices could *learn* by watching or being helped by volockies, which is a very different thing, and how human beings -- indeed, most animals -- learn to do most things... 😉

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Ooh, look at you -- obviously nobody else has ever taught or learned anything... 😉

 

If you want volockies to behave like teachers, they need to be trained and paid.

Point of order M'lud.  It was you who elevated them to the level of teachers not me.  You may have noticed I have been arguing they aren't and don't infact aren't supposed to teach.

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

That's not going to happen, for several blindingly obvious reasons...

So why did you suggest they were teaching?  It was just an attempt, not a good one, to bolster an argument only you are having.   You think for reasons I don't understand that because a number of us don't want others interfering with our locks we don't value volunteers.   We just don't value them as pretend lock keepers.

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I really don't get this "anti-volockie" attitude -- are some people so incensed by one *daring* to work a lock with/for them without doffing their cap and asking permission first that they refuse to acknowledge that volockies generally provide a useful benefit to the canals? Because that's what it looks like...

Nobody other than you has said we are anti volunteers.  personally I just want them to do what they are trained to do, ask me if I want their help and accept it gracefully when I say no.   I am happy for them to do everything else i.e. help those who want help, paint beams, cut grass clear by-washes or anything else that is needed.  I am not anti volunteer I just want them to follow their training, is that really too much to ask?

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

They're volunteers of variable age and quality, not paid employees or teachers, doing something because they want to instead of for money. Is that really so hard to understand, or easy to condemn?

Nobody other than you has suggested they should be either.   I fully understand volunteering having done lots of volunteering for various organisations over the decades.

 

I repeat because you don't seem to understand, just because I and others want them to do what they are trained to do, which is ask if we want/need help, that is not condemning them.  Unless of course they don't follow their training and take away my main enjoyment of being on the canal.   I find nothing wrong in condemning somebody for not following their training. 

 

In most of my volunteering roles if I didn't follow my training I would very quickly have got the "order of the boot".