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Volockies at Grindley Brook


AndrewIC

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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

100% agreed, and in an ideal world all volockys would behave like that, especially at locks.

 

Meanwhile in the real world some don't, some are grumpy, some are jobsworths, some are less than competent -- just like every single walk of life... 😉

 

And remember they're doing all that helpful (or occasionally less so...) stuff because they *want* to, not because they're paid to.

 

I think they should be appreciated for that, not slagged off because sometimes some of them get it wrong or annoy grumpy old boaters... 😉

If they did what they were trained to do i.e. ask many fewer people would be in a position to complain.  It really isn't difficult to approach the boater with a cheery greeting and ask the question.

 

I find many are volunteering because they ,like myself, enjoy working the locks at least that is what they have told me.   All volunteering I have done has been because I want to help the organisation not because I put my pleasure over the pleasure of the people using the organisation

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39 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe you could suggest a way that the volocky system could be improved without needing more money or expert volocky-trainers or volocky-checkers?

 

Look at other voluntary organisations like steam railways - they need massive voluntary resources and usually only the manager is paid yet on Summer Sundays the timetable works - the one they've committed to.

 

41 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

If you're not a boater, how do you know the system -- assuming you're talking about volockies -- is "not blimmin well working", when several actual boaters who use it (and meet volockies) have said that it is?

 

  Possibly because it's one of the things I'm paid to assess? How do you know so much about the fields you work in

 

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe you could suggest a way that the volocky system could be improved without needing more money or expert volocky-trainers or volocky-checkers?

 

Better briefing (staring with "you are not actually here to work locks, although sometimes you will end up doing that") and better oversight - heritage railways have volunteer oversight of volunteers, so do (for example) amatuer operatic societys, it's hardly a novel concept - and if someone can't or won't sing they don't get the lead

 

45 minutes ago, IanD said:

Over and out, no point arguing with you any more...

 

Erm is it me or yourself you are talking about here?

 

  

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

- just like knowing about horn and light signals would be.

Fazeley Jn a couple of days ago, heard 2 toots from a boat coming down from B&F. A short while later another 2 toots. Ah, here is someone who knows their sound signals I thought, and adjusted our trajectory accordingly. But no, he turned right!

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29 minutes ago, IanD said:

Still think that on balance most boaters would rather have them than not...


I would say (glibly and without evidence) most boaters or boat owners don’t boat much. 

And that statement would be much closer to a truth than “most boaters want lockies”.

 

A portion of boaters I guess now expect lockies as the normal.
And the worrying bit is in the future where a boater will not be allowed to operate a lock themselves. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

1/ yes, except for a traffic management role at long staircases. But I think a better question is, do you think the introduction of volockies a few years ago has made the place better for all boaters. No, of course. What it has done is encourage a helpless culture whereby people, instead of getting to grips with the full gamut of canal boating, wait for someone else to do it for them, or at least hope someone else will do it for them. And as a consequence their enjoyment and engagement is reduced, even though they don’t realise it.

 

2/ One incredibly simple and cost-free tactic - ensure volockies ask if assistance is required and if not, they stand away. Don’t hover with a passive aggressive stance (resenting not being wanted) in the hope that you might make a mistake, which is annoying  and spoils the calm.

 

The first point is just reinforcing what I said -- from your point of view (an experienced boater) volockys are a waste of time except at long staircases. How many of the 35000 boaters do you think have the same view, when most of them have far less knowledge or experience? It's nothing to do with wanting somebody else to do it for you, it's getting help to learn how to do it. You're sounding more and more like the "people nowadays want spoon-feeding" brigade, in spite of there being little evidence for this,

 

The second point is (I believe) what volockies are already told to do. The fact that many of them then largely ignore or forget this shouldn't come as a shock, just like many people do in many other walks of life (e.g. driving).

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11 minutes ago, Goliath said:


I would say (glibly and without evidence) most boaters or boat owners don’t boat much. 

And that statement would be much closer to a truth than “most boaters want lockies”.

 

A portion of boaters I guess now expect lockies as the normal.
And the worrying bit is in the future where a boater will not be allowed to operate a lock themselves.

 

 

Most boat owners don't boat much, which makes them inexperienced. There are probably more hire boaters moving round the system, and many (most?) of them are also inexperienced. That would make experienced boaters like Nick (and you?) very much in the minority of boats that are moving around and encountering volockys, the majority are much more likely to see them positively. Not as "you can do the hard work for me", but "you can help me learn how to do it by showing me". That's the feedback I've had from a lot of boaters I've talked to -- not you and Nick, obviously... 😉

 

Oh no, not the "slippery slope/thin end of the wedge" argument again... 😞

11 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 And yet other voluntary organisations do so much better!

Do they? I've met unhelpful (and a lot more helpful) volunteers elsewhere too, they all have their grumpys and jobsworths and not-so-competent people...

 

You're still saying that volockies are useless ("the system is blimmin' broken") because it could be better. The second part is true, but the first one isn't -- even though they could be better, I believe volockies still have a positive impact for most boaters. I don't see how you can validly disagree when you don't actually have any experience of interacting with them -- where does your belief come from?

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

The first point is just reinforcing what I said -- from your point of view (an experienced boater) volockys are a waste of time except at long staircases. How many of the 35000 boaters do you think have the same view, when most of them have far less knowledge or experience?

Just how much knowledge and experience does one need to work a lock? First time hire boaters seem to manage with minimal training, maybe just a video. There are some lock gates top and bottom, and some paddles top and bottom. It is hardly akin to quantum physics! Which of course is why those hundreds of thousands of leisure boaters starting out between the 1960s (or whenever leisure boating significantly started) and about 5 years ago, have managed locks without the assistance of volunteers. And still have to at the many sites where mercifully volockies have yet to infest.

 

We all know why CRT introduced volockies, and it wasn’t to assist boaters, it was to show involvement in volunteering and to help showcase the canals to the general public, to please the government. Only trouble is that at least 50% of volunteers are miserable old grey bearded taciturn types with no social skills and barely the power of speech, which doesn’t create a great public image.

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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Just how much knowledge and experience does one need to work a lock? First time hire boaters seem to manage with minimal training, maybe just a video. There are some lock gates top and bottom, and some paddles top and bottom. It is hardly akin to quantum physics! Which of course is why those hundreds of thousands of leisure boaters starting out between the 1960s (or whenever leisure boating significantly started) and about 5 years ago, have managed locks without the assistance of volunteers. And still have to at the many sites where mercifully volockies have yet to infest.

 

We all know why CRT introduced volockies, and it wasn’t to assist boaters, it was to show involvement in volunteering and to help showcase the canals to the general public, to please the government. Only trouble is that at least 50% of volunteers boaters are miserable old grey bearded taciturn types with no social skills and barely the power of speech, which doesn’t create a great public image.

FTFY 😉

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12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Fazeley Jn a couple of days ago, heard 2 toots from a boat coming down from B&F. A short while later another 2 toots. Ah, here is someone who knows their sound signals I thought, and adjusted our trajectory accordingly. But no, he turned right!

I lost confidence in the usefulness of sound signals when following a boat frequently announcing his engine was going astern.

After a bit, I realised he sounded three toots at bridge holes and anything else he saw

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I don't want to rely on anyone except myself when boating. I like chugging along chatting to the wildlife and working locks. It doesn't ruin my day if someone helps me along. 

You can't have a booking system for volunteers, because you can't enforce their attendance. Nor can you discipline them if they forget their training, all you can do is take them off the list.

If you ask for volunteers to do the boring stuff like clearing bywashes, cutting the grass, etc, without the bit of fun that's working locks and chatting to boaters and each other, you aint going to get any. Same at flights - just letting them get abused by narky boaters trying to enforce a flow of boats and then tell them they can't work the locks - result, no volunteers.

You have to look at it from their point of view I'm afraid. They want the whole experience and doubtless envy those of us floating past. And imagine what the state of it would be without them. I even have a vague feeling that the whole damn system wouldn't be where it is today without volunteers in the past. They probably often didn't do it right all the time either.

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Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't want to rely on anyone except myself when boating. I like chugging along chatting to the wildlife and working locks. It doesn't ruin my day if someone helps me along. 

You can't have a booking system for volunteers, because you can't enforce their attendance. Nor can you discipline them if they forget their training, all you can do is take them off the list.

If you ask for volunteers to do the boring stuff like clearing bywashes, cutting the grass, etc, without the bit of fun that's working locks and chatting to boaters and each other, you aint going to get any. Same at flights - just letting them get abused by narky boaters trying to enforce a flow of boats and then tell them they can't work the locks - result, no volunteers.

You have to look at it from their point of view I'm afraid. They want the whole experience and doubtless envy those of us floating past. And imagine what the state of it would be without them. I even have a vague feeling that the whole damn system wouldn't be where it is today without volunteers in the past. They probably often didn't do it right all the time either.

 

What, you're seriously suggesting that some people should look at it from the volunteers point of view, when they can't even look at it from the less-experienced-boaters point of view? 😉

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40 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Most boat owners don't boat much, which makes them inexperienced. There are probably more hire boaters moving round the system, and many (most?) of them are also inexperienced. That would make experienced boaters like Nick (and you?) very much in the minority of boats that are moving around and encountering volockys, the majority are much more likely to see them positively. Not as "you can do the hard work for me", but "you can help me learn how to do it by showing me". That's the feedback I've had from a lot of boaters I've talked to -- not you and Nick, obviously... 😉

 

Oh no, not the "slippery slope/thin end of the wedge" argument again... 😞

Do they? I've met unhelpful (and a lot more helpful) volunteers elsewhere too, they all have their grumpys and jobsworths and not-so-competent people...

 


There are hire boaters out there with more experience than myself. 
 

I’m getting lost in your arguments now, you need to stop swirling you arms and calm down.
 
Ever thought of volunteering?

 

I have actually 😂

The Rochdale is really needy, I think. 
And the Rochdale (up from Manchester) would be a good use of volunteer resources if ever CRT want to encourage boating. 
There’d be no glamour, just a hard graft requiring an understanding of water control. 
 

And yeah, I am beginning to think it’s a slippery slope with volunteer lockies regards a complete take over. 
 


 

Edited by Goliath
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12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Like Scotland? Also something which was suggested a few years ago on the Grand Union due to the gate paddles flooding a boat

I was just wondering how some boaters would get on in Scotland where boaters are not allowed to work the locks. Not only that but they have to book ahead and are given a time to be at the start of the flight. I don't think many of the volunteer lock keepers are boaters or even have much experience of boating but from all reports they are well received by boaters. Even boaters who usually boat in Englandshire and hire a boat up here to experience the Lowland canals 

 

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One issue I find with Vlockies is they start to feel they know more than anyone else and almost like they own the lock. Then there develops a condescending attitude that winds some up. It’s different to employee lock keepers as the Vlockies too often have an air of superiority as they are volunteers. I’ve seen this with a number of National Trust volunteers too. 
I don’t believe they are any help generally and really it’s difficult to keep them off “their lock” too often. 
Some are excellent but sadly they appear to be the minority. 

 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Most boat owners don't boat much, which makes them inexperienced. There are probably more hire boaters moving round the system, and many (most?) of them are also inexperienced. That would make experienced boaters like Nick (and you?) very much in the minority of boats that are moving around and encountering volockys,


Ian I don’t know where you get that from. Most boaters pick things up pretty fast, even if they don’t boat much. Ive shared a number of locks  with very experienced hirers. 
 

one thing though boaters do seem like car drivers, I’ve seldom met one who doesn’t class themselves as a top class driver/ lock worker yet seem some classic mess ups 🤣 used to go out with someone who felt they were the best driver in the world. The fact that almost every journey was a white knuckle ride for me and almost every journey elicited at least one car beeping at them made little impact on that impression 🤣🤣

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This was posted on Twitter from one of the devil volunteers at Hillmorton 

 

Hecti day at Hillmorton with lock 2 out of action. Made worse by the 2 Welsh gents who, at locking up time, were stuck in lock 5. Went to check, they said the lock wo'nt fill. Youve guess, all 4 paddles up. Late home, dinner in the dog.

 

Awful these volunteers aren’t they

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22 minutes ago, Chris John said:

This was posted on Twitter from one of the devil volunteers at Hillmorton 

 

Hecti day at Hillmorton with lock 2 out of action. Made worse by the 2 Welsh gents who, at locking up time, were stuck in lock 5. Went to check, they said the lock wo'nt fill. Youve guess, all 4 paddles up. Late home, dinner in the dog.

 

Awful these volunteers aren’t they

 

 

You'd have thought that if they were competent at doing their 'job they'd have noticed the boat 'stuck' in their lock.

 

A prime example of volunteer incompetence.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You'd have thought that if they were competent at doing their 'job they'd have noticed the boat 'stuck' in their lock.

 

A prime example of volunteer incompetence.

 

 

Are you for real. Have you ever been to Hillmorton locks?

I guess as long as you’re happy slating people you carry on!

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1 hour ago, Chris John said:

This was posted on Twitter from one of the devil volunteers at Hillmorton 

 

Hecti day at Hillmorton with lock 2 out of action. Made worse by the 2 Welsh gents who, at locking up time, were stuck in lock 5. Went to check, they said the lock wo'nt fill. Youve guess, all 4 paddles up. Late home, dinner in the dog.

 

Awful these volunteers aren’t they

Drop 2 paddles, lock fills in a minutes,  given they were probably half way up anyway. Let them out, lock gates, perhaps 10 minutes longer. Perhaps he/she needs to review their catering arrangements.

 

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3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Drop 2 paddles, lock fills in a minutes,  given they were probably half way up anyway. Let them out, lock gates, perhaps 10 minutes longer. Perhaps he/she needs to review their catering arrangements.

 

Oh and leave the pound they’ve probably emptied empty. Yeh great idea 

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2 hours ago, haggis said:

I was just wondering how some boaters would get on in Scotland where boaters are not allowed to work the locks. Not only that but they have to book ahead and are given a time to be at the start of the flight. I don't think many of the volunteer lock keepers are boaters or even have much experience of boating but from all reports they are well received by boaters. Even boaters who usually boat in Englandshire and hire a boat up here to experience the Lowland canals 

 

Well that is the main reason why we decided to base our boat in Englandshire even though we live in Aberdeen. We quite enjoyed hiring on the F&C for a short break, but having to operate to a schedule to get through locks and bridges was far too constraining and stressful for prolonged boating. 

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

. Not as "you can do the hard work for me", but "you can help me learn how to do it by showing me". That's the feedback I've had from a lot of boaters I've talked to -- not you and Nick, obviously... 😉

In my experience the majority of inexperienced are only too pleased to either stay on the boat or watch while others work the lock for them.     If they took the attitude you can help me learn they would be doing the lock and the volockie standing back and instructing.   I have never seen that.

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7 minutes ago, Chris John said:

Oh and leave the pound they’ve probably emptied empty. Yeh great idea 

So was the voloky not going up to locks 6 and 7 anyway to lock them....

If the Welshys hired from Clifton, Willow Wren or Rose Narrowboats, that was probably the first lock they had done on their own, if the Volocky was so eager to get home for dinner he had just worked them through the bottom lock without asking, and not shown them what to do, then he is probably just as much as fault as they are....if not more so.

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2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't want to rely on anyone except myself when boating. I like chugging along chatting to the wildlife and working locks. It doesn't ruin my day if someone helps me along. 

You can't have a booking system for volunteers, because you can't enforce their attendance. Nor can you discipline them if they forget their training, all you can do is take them off the list.

If you ask for volunteers to do the boring stuff like clearing bywashes, cutting the grass, etc, without the bit of fun that's working locks and chatting to boaters and each other, you aint going to get any. Same at flights - just letting them get abused by narky boaters trying to enforce a flow of boats and then tell them they can't work the locks - result, no volunteers.

You have to look at it from their point of view I'm afraid. They want the whole experience and doubtless envy those of us floating past. And imagine what the state of it would be without them. I even have a vague feeling that the whole damn system wouldn't be where it is today without volunteers in the past. They probably often didn't do it right all the time either.

I can't agree with that.  I, and many others have spent weeks volunteering with the RSP.  I creosoted fences, built paths, cleared water ways, surveyed plants, built walls and many other things.  The only time I got to watch birds was before or after work and on the one day off a week.  The reserve I worked on didn't even at that time have hides so we didn't even get to chat to visitors.

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