Volockies at Grindley Brook

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, haggis said:

Lie Arthur, I can't think of an instance when I have asked a volunteer not to help that they have ignored me.  Perhaps as ian suggested, a lot is about how you ask 🙂 

I love canal boating and have been doing it for about 40 years and while I love doing locks, I am finding that with advancing years sometimes a bit of help is very welcome. I don't see the volunteers taking away any of my enjoyment of the canals but they add to it  by making life that wee bit easier for a while. 

I wonder if all those fit young things who seem to resent the volunteers will still feel the same when they find that working locks is not as easy as it used to be ? 

When I can’t do locks myself I will quit. 

[Jerra]

For the record I think there is nothing wrong with volockies provided:

 

they ask if your want help and step back if you don't

 

they manage queues while allowing those who don't want help to work the locks when it is their turn, not take over the whole job i.e. work the lock for you.

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, haggis said:

Like Arthur, I can't think of an instance when I have asked a volunteer not to help and they have ignored me.  Perhaps as ian suggested, a lot is about how you ask 🙂 

I love canal boating and have been doing it for about 40 years and while I love doing locks, I am finding that with advancing years sometimes a bit of help is very welcome. I don't see the volunteers taking away any of my enjoyment of the canals but they add to it  by making life that wee bit easier for a while. 

I wonder if all those fit young things who seem to resent the volunteers will still feel the same when they find that working locks is not as easy as it used to be ? 

Two thoughts;

 

I shouldn't have to ask them not to help they should ask me if I want help

 

being more than halfway through my 70s I am not a young fit thing but I still hope to be able to work my own locks for a few more years.

[haggis]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

When I can’t do locks myself I will quit. 

and give up all canal boating and the many pleasures it brings? 

I can still do locks but I think my days of working up Hatton then Lapworth in a day are perhaps gone  🙂 .  

[magpie patrick]

 

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

But I think it's blindingly obvious that the majority of boaters on the canals are *not* like you or Nick (with many years experience of working the canals), the majority are either relative newcomers or hire boaters or people who don't move very much -- and for them, volockies are generally a good thing.

 

Do you disagree?

 

Yes I do

 

If you look though my record you'll find that the last lock I went through was on the Exeter Canal, over a year ago, and it was worked for me. The last CRT lock I went through was on a holiday on a disabled accessible boat along the K&A in 2018, I don't recall any volockies perhaps because the boat was a leviathan and generally I was steering, the rest of the crew working the locks. In short, whilst I'd like to be a user of the waterways, I am not, at least not as a boater. 

What I do have is experience of where voluteering has worked really well, where it has been tried and failed, where it needs to be improved and where it should be beneficial but has not been taken up or having started has been cancelled even though it was yeilding good results - this isn't just across the CRT network, it covers other waterways and even non-waterway activities

 

The problem with CRT volockies are many fold, but can be summarised as being that the role is inadequately thought through - what are they actually for? If they are for the purpose you describe then there would be several differences to what happens now, for example, volockies would be on locks near hire bases on a  Saturday afternoon, or Sunday if the base is on a long pound. They would be strung out all the way along big flights, not just gathered round the tea hut - they would be better targetted and paradoxically there would be fewer of them but they would probably be more obvious and perhaps more beneficial. One problem with this approach though is it makes being a volockie rather solitary, and if you look at the best dynamics of most volunteer activities from restoration work parties to door-to-door collection of charity envelopes they work better as group activities - it isn't easy to adapt lock-assistance to a group activity. 

Lock-assistance is also a public facing activity, and whatever you think the instances of volunteers hiding in the tea hut or knocking off at three when it starts raining do get noticed - if volunteers are cutting back hedges or litter picking (or even using chain saws) they don't need to deal with the public, managing a lock flight or working locks for boaters they do, and too many of them are not good at it. As you are seeing here the instance of the churlish volunteer lasts far longer in the mind than the helpful ones.   

Finally, they don't (as yet) fit the culture, and that is also partly down to bad management and possibly the scheme being ill thought out. How many people, narrow boaters included, complain about locks on the Thames being manned - very few, indeed the opposite is more likely. CRT need a scheme which is reliable enough that they can post online and in print "Atherston Flight - assistance available locks 1-7 on summer weekends", but they can't, because the scheme wasn't really concieved with the boater in mind.  

 

Apologies I had to edit out a very good part of your post in my quote to make sure that the bit I was arguing with was visible

Edited September 22, 2022 by magpie patrick

[Arthur Marshall]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Two thoughts;

 

I shouldn't have to ask them not to help they should ask me if I want help

 

being more than halfway through my 70s I am not a young fit thing but I still hope to be able to work my own locks for a few more years.

The few I met this year all asked if I wanted help.

And yes, when I can't do locks on my own I'll give up too as it's unlikely that every single lock on the system will be permanently manned! Volunteers or not, you're on your own 95% of the time at least.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

 

Yes I do

 

If you look though my record you'll find that the last lock I went through was on the Exeter Canal, over a year ago, and it was worked for me. The last CRT lock I went through was on a holiday on a disabled accessible boat along the K&A in 2018, I don't recall any volockies perhaps because the boat was a leviathan and generally I was steering, the rest of the crew working the locks. In short, whilst I'd like to be a user of the waterways, I am not, at least not as a boater. 

What I do have is experience of where voluteering has worked really well, where it has been tried and failed, where it needs to be improved and where it should be beneficial but has not been taken up or having started has been cancelled even though it was yeilding good results - this isn't just across the CRT network, it covers other waterways and even non-waterway activities

 

The problem with CRT volockies are many fold, but can be summarised as being that the role is inadequately thought through - what are they actually for? If they are for the purpose you describe then there would be several differences to what happens now, for example, volockies would be on locks near hire bases on a  Saturday afternoon, or Sunday if the base is on a long pound. They would be strung out all the way along big flights, not just gathered round the tea hut - they would be better targetted and paradoxically there would be fewer of them but they would probably be more obvious and perhaps more beneficial. One problem with this approach though is it makes being a volockie rather solitary, and if you look at the best dynamics of most volunteer activities from restoration work parties to door-to-door collection of charity envelopes they work better as group activities - it isn't easy to adapt lock-assistance to a group activity. 

Lock-assistance is also a public facing activity, and whatever you think the instances of volunteers hiding in the tea hut or knocking off at three when it starts raining do get noticed - if volunteers are cutting back hedges or litter picking (or even using chain saws) they don't need to deal with the public, managing a lock flight or working locks for boaters they do, and too many of them are not good at it. As you are seeing here the instance of the churlish volunteer lasts far longer in the mind than the helpful ones.   

Finally, they don't (as yet) fit the culture, and that is also partly down to bad management and possibly the scheme being ill thought out. How many people, narrow boaters included, complain about locks on the Thames being manned - very few, indeed the opposite is more likely. CRT need a scheme which is reliable enough that they can post online and in print "Atherston Flight - assistance available locks 1-7 on summer weekends", but they can't, because the scheme wasn't really concieved with the boater in mind.  

 

 

So you really think that volockies are generally a bad thing? Really? For all boaters, not just you? And this is in spite of the fact that you're not a user of the waterways or a boater?

 

Yet again you're protesting about why they're not perfect, and why they sometimes aren't there or are having tea, or aren't all super-knowledgeable. As you say they're volunteers, not professional lockies, and they're doing it partly for their own enjoyment -- which is pretty much the definition of a volunteer, isn't it?

 

Nobody is perfect -- certainly not most boaters -- and it simply seems unbelievable that volockies have a negative overall effect for most boaters, which is what you (a non-boater) and Nick are suggesting...

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD

[Lady M]

Volocky at Hillmorton beckoned us towards the bottom lefthand lock but didn't open the gate although the level was right.  So I had to pull over to drop OH off on the awkward sloping, grassy bank.  The other volocky, who was standing at the far end of the lock, ignored my 'OK to raise paddle signal' and continued talking to someone.  Then the first one seemed annoyed because I hadn't signalled to him.  Their behaviour just seemed a bit condescending and bossy.  However, on the return journey, there were several volockies on duty, and they were all very friendly and helpful.  Luck of the draw perhaps.  None of them asked if we wanted help.  Knackered back (too many locks worked) means I steer the boat while OH with his creaky knees has to work the locks, so he welcomes a bit of assistance and a lift between the locks.  

Edited September 22, 2022 by Lady C
Thought of another point.

[magpie patrick]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So you really think that volockies are generally a bad thing? Really? For all boaters, not just you? And this is in spite of the fact that you're not a user of the waterways or a boater?

 

Yet again you're protesting about why they're not perfect, and why they sometimes aren't there or are having tea, or aren't all super-knowledgeable. As you say they're volunteers, not professional lockies, and they're doing it partly for their own enjoyment -- which is pretty much the definition of a volunteer, isn't it?

 

Nobody is perfect -- certainly not most boaters -- and it simply seems unbelievable that volockies have a negative overall effect for most boaters, which is what you and Nick are suggesting.

 The point is that to do the job properly they, as a whole, have to be reliable and predictable - they are not. 

A volunteer is there to do a job - their reward is satisfaction at a job well done rather than payment, but volunteers need a professional approach (for want of a better term) - look at the vast number of volunteer jobs done, how often does your local Oxfam shop not open because of an unreliable volunteer? Almost never. How often do steam railways not run because a volunteer hasn't turned up, or is sitting having a brew? Almost never. 

There are locations where lock-keepers are a good idea, whether or not they are paid - for this they don't need to be perfect, but they need to be a darn sight better than they are. 

 

On the point as to my view on them - my view is that of someone advising organisations of how best to utilise volunteers - Volockies as they are at present is not a good way to do it.  
 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

28 minutes ago, haggis said:

and give up all canal boating and the many pleasures it brings? 

I can still do locks but I think my days of working up Hatton then Lapworth in a day are perhaps gone  🙂 .  

yes, I guess so

 

and I weren’t being blunt to say everyone should do the same. 

As I age I will probably choose easier canals to travel. 
Until eventually I cruise up and down the Macc above the Bosley flight 😃

or maybe the Ashby 

or even just stay outside the Anchor. 
 

 

[David Mack]

Does CRT have a published volunteer strategy setting out how many volunteers they want/need, where, when and on what activities they will be deployed? Or do they just try and find something to do for all those that volunteer?

[Arthur Marshall]

I just tend to treat them like a bonus, same as I do if another boater offers to lock me through, and expect the same sort of ability. The boat's my responsibility, after all, not theirs.

I can't see they're a big deal at all  except where they replace paid lockies.

And my local Oxfam is often shut because a volunteer hasn't turned up, steam trains are different because their volunteers are all barmy (or at least the ones I know are). You can't treat volunteers like employees, and CRT wouldn't have invented them if they could afford the real thing. I think we're pretty lucky to have them - they do the gardening, painting, bywash clearing as well as locking. It would be a right mess without them, these days.

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 The point is that to do the job properly they, as a whole, have to be reliable and predictable - they are not. 

A volunteer is there to do a job - their reward is satisfaction at a job well done rather than payment, but volunteers need a professional approach (for want of a better term) - look at the vast number of volunteer jobs done, how often does your local Oxfam shop not open because of an unreliable volunteer? Almost never. How often do steam railways not run because a volunteer hasn't turned up, or is sitting having a brew? Almost never. 

There are locations where lock-keepers are a good idea, whether or not they are paid - for this they don't need to be perfect, but they need to be a darn sight better than they are. 

 

On the point as to my view on them - my view is that of someone advising organisations of how best to utilise volunteers - Volockies as they are at present is not a good way to do it.  
 

 

Still missing the essential point (unsurprising since you're not a boater) -- yes it would be nice if they were better trained, and more reliable, and came out more in the rain, and maybe the whole scheme could be organised better, but even as they are today they have a positive effect on the canal system, as Arthur pointed out.

 

Yet again you're rejecting the good because it's not perfect -- but the world (and volunteers) aren't perfect, and will never be... 😉

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD

[magpie patrick]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Still missing the essential point (unsurprising since you're not a boater) -- yes it would be nice if they were better trained, and more reliable, and came out more in the rain, and maybe the whole scheme could be organised better, but even as they are today they have a positive effect on the canal system, as Arthur pointed out.

 

Yet again you're rejecting the good because it's not perfect -- but the world (and volunteers) aren't perfect, and will never be... 😉

 

I'm rejecting it because it's about the worst example of volunteer involvement I have encountered in my professional observations - and even Arthur will admit he can't rely on volunteers and therefore he has to head off on the basis there won't be any. 

 

Have you ever, ever conceded defeat in an argument - look at your flip-flopping - you pointed out that I was an experienced boater and thus, in effect, my viewpoint was slanted, now because I don't actually go boating my viewpoint is, apparently, worth less than others because I don't actually benefit or get inconvenienced by volutary lock keepers. 

The systrem is not less than perfect, it is not blimmin well working - if you ran an art gallery on the basis CRT run voluntary lock keepers no one would know when it was open and there'd be many a time it was open there'd be no-one selling tickets or guidebooks. "We have voluntary lock keepers, where, when and how good they'd be on any one day is rather random" - that's not a system

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

I'm rejecting it because it's about the worst example of volunteer involvement I have encountered in my professional observations - and even Arthur will admit he can't rely on volunteers and therefore he has to head off on the basis there won't be any. 

 

Have you ever, ever conceded defeat in an argument - look at your flip-flopping - you pointed out that I was an experienced boater and thus, in effect, my viewpoint was slanted, now because I don't actually go boating my viewpoint is, apparently, worth less than others because I don't actually benefit or get inconvenienced by volutary lock keepers. 

The systrem is not less than perfect, it is not blimmin well working - if you ran an art gallery on the basis CRT run voluntary lock keepers no one would know when it was open and there'd be many a time it was open there'd be no-one selling tickets or guidebooks. "We have voluntary lock keepers, where, when and how good they'd be on any one day is rather random" - that's not a system

 

 

 

Have a geeeny (cannot click one for you)

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

I'm rejecting it because it's about the worst example of volunteer involvement I have encountered in my professional observations - and even Arthur will admit he can't rely on volunteers and therefore he has to head off on the basis there won't be any. 

 

Have you ever, ever conceded defeat in an argument - look at your flip-flopping - you pointed out that I was an experienced boater and thus, in effect, my viewpoint was slanted, now because I don't actually go boating my viewpoint is, apparently, worth less than others because I don't actually benefit or get inconvenienced by volutary lock keepers. 

The systrem is not less than perfect, it is not blimmin well working - if you ran an art gallery on the basis CRT run voluntary lock keepers no one would know when it was open and there'd be many a time it was open there'd be no-one selling tickets or guidebooks. "We have voluntary lock keepers, where, when and how good they'd be on any one day is rather random" - that's not a system

 

 

I thought you were an experienced boater like Nick, because you were making the same arguments. Now I know better, and that makes your arguments even less convincing.

 

If you're not a boater, how do you know the system -- assuming you're talking about volockies -- is "not blimmin well working", when several actual boaters who use it (and meet volockies) have said that it is?

 

Nobody including me is claiming that the volocky system is perfect or even very good and it could undoubtedly be improved, but such improvements tend to take money and people that CART doesn't have to train them better.

 

Maybe you could suggest a way that the volocky system could be improved without needing more money or expert volocky-trainers or volocky-checkers?

 

If not, maybe you should stop moaning about something you have no actual experience of?

 

Over and out, no point arguing with you any more...

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

We did Bingley in the 1970s. No-one around, we just got on with it. It’s just the same as any other staircase, only bigger!

I wish that had been the case when we came up, first one paddle then a bit the other side paddle followed by the first etc, boat going one side to the other and taking a week to fill. I climbed the ladder and asked her to do one or the other and please get it fully open, but it did no good. The volcockies were pee'd off as well. She wouldn't let the boat that arrived after we were coming up into the bottom until we were out of the top.

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Have a geeeny (cannot click one for you)

 

How predictable. I guess you have had a lot of recent interaction with volockies then, in spite of not being on the canals for quite a few (how many?) years?

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The few I met this year all asked if I wanted help.

I have had exactly the opposite not one has asked if I need help rather than just assuming I did.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I have had exactly the opposite not one has asked if I need help rather than just assuming I did.

And I've had ones that have done both. All that tells me is that not all volockies are as well-trained as they should be. Still think that on balance most boaters would rather have them than not...

 

(and not just for "helping" at locks, also doing all the other low-level maintenance things that they do like clearing crap out of locks)

 

For all the volocky-haters, I have two questions:

 

1. If all the volockys vanished tomorrow, do you really think the canals would be a better place for all boaters (not just you)?

2. If you think the volocky system could be improved, how would you do it given CART financial and manpower constraints?

 

(in other words, in the real world rather than the one you'd like to live in...)

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

And I've had ones that have done both. All that tells me is that not all volockies are as well-trained as they should be. Still think that on balance most boaters would rather have them than not...

 

(and not just for "helping" at locks, also doing all the other low-level maintenance things that they do like clearing crap out of locks)

I am all for them cutting grass, painting beams, clearing by-washes etc in fact anything which keeps them busy so they ask me if I want help hoping I say no.    As I said earlier but you seem to have ignored I enjoy chatting to them and there is nothing wrong with having them. All I ask is they do as they have been trained, ask if I want help and accept with good grace if I say no.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I am all for them cutting grass, painting beams, clearing by-washes etc in fact anything which keeps them busy so they ask me if I want help hoping I say no.    As I said earlier but you seem to have ignored I enjoy chatting to them and there is nothing wrong with having them. All I ask is they do as they have been trained, ask if I want help and accept with good grace if I say no.

100% agreed, and in an ideal world all volockys would behave like that, especially at locks.

 

Meanwhile in the real world some don't, some are grumpy, some are jobsworths, some are less than competent -- just like every single walk of life... 😉

 

And remember they're doing all that helpful (or occasionally less so...) stuff because they *want* to, not because they're paid to.

 

I think they should be appreciated for that, not slagged off because sometimes some of them get it wrong or annoy grumpy old boaters... 😉

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD

[Rob-M]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

And I've had ones that have done both. All that tells me is that not all volockies are as well-trained as they should be. Still think that on balance most boaters would rather have them than not...

 

(and not just for "helping" at locks, also doing all the other low-level maintenance things that they do like clearing crap out of locks)

 

For all the volocky-haters, I have two questions:

 

1. If all the volockys vanished tomorrow, do you really think the canals would be a better place for all boaters (not just you)?

2. If you think the volocky system could be improved, how would you do it given CART financial and manpower constraints?

 

(in other words, in the real world rather than the one you'd like to live in...)

I would change the system to be something that you booked so if you wanted a volunteer to help on the Hatton flight you called in and booked, booking could be managed by a volunteer as the scheduling of the volunteers is done anyway.  You would then get a volunteer for the whole flight as well rather than just the few locks near the welfare cabin.

 

When I started boating in the early 70's you just got on with it and if you didn't know what you were doing someone would show you how they do it and you learnt as you went along.  Perhaps today's society has too many people happy to sit back and let someone else do the work for them.

[nicknorman]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

And I've had ones that have done both. All that tells me is that not all volockies are as well-trained as they should be. Still think that on balance most boaters would rather have them than not...

 

(and not just for "helping" at locks, also doing all the other low-level maintenance things that they do like clearing crap out of locks)

 

For all the volocky-haters, I have two questions:

 

1. If all the volockys vanished tomorrow, do you really think the canals would be a better place for all boaters (not just you)?

2. If you think the volocky system could be improved, how would you do it given CART financial and manpower constraints?

 

(in other words, in the real world rather than the one you'd like to live in...)

1/ yes, except for a traffic management role at long staircases. But I think a better question is, do you think the introduction of volockies a few years ago has made the place better for all boaters. No, of course. What it has done is encourage a helpless culture whereby people, instead of getting to grips with the full gamut of canal boating, wait for someone else to do it for them, or at least hope someone else will do it for them. And as a consequence their enjoyment and engagement is reduced, even though they don’t realise it.

 

2/ One incredibly simple and cost-free tactic - ensure volockies ask if assistance is required and if not, they stand away. Don’t hover with a passive aggressive stance (ensuring you know that they know they resent not being wanted) in the hope that you might make a mistake, which is annoying  and spoils the calm.

Edited September 22, 2022 by nicknorman

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I would change the system to be something that you booked so if you wanted a volunteer to help on the Hatton flight you called in and booked, booking could be managed by a volunteer as the scheduling of the volunteers is done anyway.  You would then get a volunteer for the whole flight as well rather than just the few locks near the welfare cabin.

 

When I started boating in the early 70's you just got on with it and if you didn't know what you were doing someone would show you how they do it and you learnt as you went along.  Perhaps today's society has too many people happy to sit back and let someone else do the work for them.

 

A booking system would certainly help if everyone knew about it and used it correctly -- just like knowing about horn and light signals would be. What do you think the chances of that would be, when many boaters don't even know where they're going to be going that day or stopping in the evening?

 

On the second bit, perhaps there are far more hire and novice boaters on the canals nowadays than there were in the 70s, so help from volockys is a lot more useful than then?

 

(let me check -- oh yes, that's what the facts say...)

Edited September 22, 2022 by IanD