The red diesel headache for pleasure boat operators

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Prices are very volatile, by filling up frequently it guards against a price spike. One marina told me that next week the prices will have to go up by 30p/litre. Admittedly a few of the fill-ups were hardly worth it.

To keep full or to run dry for the winter is a subject about which there is now much argument. Traditionally it was accepted practice to top up to reduce in-tank condensation, but the new formulation of diesel seems much more likely to feed diesel bug, so many amongst the yachtie fraternity recommend running the diesel low towards the end of the season and draining the tank completely at winterisation time.

 

Of course, yachts have smaller tanks, but if you've ever been unfortunate enough to have had diesel bug, you certainly won't want a large tank full to polish or dump.

[Naughty Cal]

52 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

With bricklayers earning over 50k a year, saving a few pounds by turning off diesel engines isn't going to make very much difference in the scheme of things, but every little helps.

 

I wonder if JCB are working on a battery powered back loader.

Bricklayers don't run JCB's!

 

The groundwork contractors run the construction plant.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

I fail to see how making the construction industry change from red to.white diesel helps meet reducing CO2 targets, unless the industry builds fewer things.

 

I suspect it was a way of increasing taxation without the government being blamed 

The idea is to encourage more efficient use of diesel  and to encourage  alternative fuels where possible. eg using solar on construction site offices .

 And yes building less  as in being less  wasteful is a good thing .

All easier said than done.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Lady C said:

I think there may be more bio fuel in white diesel than in red, which would be seen as 'greener'.

I don't believe that to be the case .

Red is simply white with dye added 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Steilsteven said:

I bow to your superior knowledge, even though I was in construction for most of my working life.

 

I was a project manager fitting standby generators and other critical equipment to data centres, hospitals and telephone exchanges for a large percentage of my career.

 

Diesel costs were a tiny percentage of the overall project costs.

 

I wouldn't have taken the chance on using battery powered construction equipment. The penalty charges for late delivery were too onerous to risk using them.

[Athy]

16 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

Good luck with that!

It would be good to see steam rollers used in the construction and maintenance of roads again.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

It would be good to see steam rollers used in the construction and maintenance of roads again.

 

 

I think they faded from use when the diesel engine was invented.

 

 

[Athy]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I think they faded from use when the diesel engine was invented.

 

 

Well yes, albeit some years afterwards, but I'm sure you realised that my comment was A Joke.

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I think they faded from use when the diesel engine was invented.

 

 

Not sure how polluting steam coal was or how well steam rollers would work with smokeless fuel.

 

I suspect that the exhaust of old technology diesel engines that replaced steam might have been more dangerous to health than was coal smoke, but at least modern diesels are a great deal cleaner than old ones.

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

Not sure how polluting steam coal was or how well steam rollers would work with smokeless fuel.

 

I suspect that the exhaust of old technology diesel engines that replaced steam might have been more dangerous to health than was coal smoke, but at least modern diesels are a great deal cleaner than old ones.

You mean you can’t see the CO, NOx, pm10 and pm2.5 that they emit.  In fact I think the newer engines emit a lot more pm2.5 than the old engines, and those tiny particles get into your blood.  Unless of course you have a cat converter and dpf fitted which many construction machines currently in use don’t.

[Bargebuilder]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I think the newer engines emit a lot more pm2.5 than the old engines,

You may well think that, but is it true?

 

It's certainly an often repeated statement, but the scientific proof that is 'said' to exist is never forthcoming.

 

 

 

 

 

[Momac]

37 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

You mean you can’t see the CO, NOx, pm10 and pm2.5 that they emit.  In fact I think the newer engines emit a lot more pm2.5 than the old engines, and those tiny particles get into your blood.  Unless of course you have a cat converter and dpf fitted which many construction machines currently in use don’t.

Narrowboats must be quite bad for health of the skipper , especially those  with an exhaust forward of the helm?

[Bargebuilder]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Narrowboats must be quite bad for health of the skipper , especially those  with an exhaust forward of the helm?

The engines of such narrowboats tend to be the wonderful old traditional ones that are lovingly maintained and regularly polished. They are also often quite smokey: you certainly know when entering a tunnel if such a boat has been through in the previous hour!

 

Some of the owners of these boats are convinced that their exhaust products are not harmful to their health. I hope they are right because they must breath in a huge amount of it in a day's cruising.

[frangar]

12 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

The engines of such narrowboats tend to be the wonderful old traditional ones that are lovingly maintained and regularly polished. They are also often quite smokey: you certainly know when entering a tunnel if such a boat has been through in the previous hour!

 

Some of the owners of these boats are convinced that their exhaust products are not harmful to their health. I hope they are right because they must breath in a huge amount of it in a day's cruising.

I’ve stood behind the stack for my lovely JP2 for 30 years and I’m still here…..and I’m not going to give it up anytime soon. 

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

You may well think that, but is it true?

 

It's certainly an often repeated statement, but the scientific proof that is 'said' to exist is never forthcoming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Certainly all recreational boats (including NBs) built since 2016 have low limits of particulate emissions.

Diesel engines up to 37Kw (49hp) are limited to 1 gram/Kwh

Engines 37Kw - 75Kw are limited to 0.3 gram/Kwh

 

Now - what is the particulate output (g/Kwh) of an old JP2 ?

[frangar]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Certainly all recreational boats (including NBs) built since 2016 have low limits of particulate emissions.

Diesel engines up to 37Kw (49hp) are limited to 1 gram/Kwh

Engines 37Kw - 75Kw are limited to 0.3 gram/Kwh

 

Now - what is the particulate output (g/Kwh) of an old JP2 ?

Who cares?! Not me….life is usually fatal in the end and I’d rather enjoy it while I’m here! 

[Naughty Cal]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Certainly all recreational boats (including NBs) built since 2016 have low limits of particulate emissions.

Diesel engines up to 37Kw (49hp) are limited to 1 gram/Kwh

Engines 37Kw - 75Kw are limited to 0.3 gram/Kwh

 

Now - what is the particulate output (g/Kwh) of an old JP2 ?

It did make us chuckle on Saturday as we were sat in traffic in the Portsmouth clean air zone surrounded by "clean running" Euro 6 vehicles while sat at her berth beside us was one of Brittany Ferries finest sat with the massive diesel generators thumping away and smoke visibly billowing from the engine exhausts.

 

The irony wasn't lost on us.

[Bargebuilder]

34 minutes ago, frangar said:

I’ve stood behind the stack for my lovely JP2 for 30 years and I’m still here…..and I’m not going to give it up anytime soon. 

Lots of life long smokers say something similar about their habit. 

[frangar]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Lots of life long smokers say something similar about their habit. 

And why not? I also enjoy a pint or two…and although I’m veggie I love a veggie fry up with fried bread etc….should that be stopped too?  Life is in fact fatal and there’s no getting round that…why not do what you enjoy while you are here rather than live till you are 100 in a sad existence?…oh and I love coal fired steam engines of all types….

 

Have you considered the environmental impact of making a new engine every few years along with the ECU etc and the rare metals that needs so you can feel green??….maybe ask those in developing countries where the minerals are mined how they are getting on and how their environment is? 

 

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Narrowboats must be quite bad for health of the skipper , especially those  with an exhaust forward of the helm?

The same could of course be said for the skippers of large cruisers with two large engines belching out smoke and emissions!

 

Boats don't have the strict emissions controls that road vehicles have yet although they have to be much cleaner running since 2016.

 

[Iain_S]

19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes they launched a 2-tonne digger a couple of years ago - it managed about 3 hours on the battery and then had to go on charge (on a huge diesel site generator) for hours and hours to recharge.

 

You have to laugh !!!

Is that the one where the guy put up a video on YouTube? Where he connected the huge diesel generator to a site transformer to recharge the thing? Other people commenting on his video seemed to be able to get a full shift from one charge …

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

It would be good to see steam rollers used in the construction and maintenance of roads again.

 

Problem with that is the supply of steam coal from the last pit in Wales has almost dried up, although they have been granted a short extension to extract, (and yesterday were invaded by idiots from Extintion Rebellion!) and other suitable supplies has to be brought in from abroad, which used to be from Russia, and that is very expensive.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Is that the one where the guy put up a video on YouTube? Where he connected the huge diesel generator to a site transformer to recharge the thing? Other people commenting on his video seemed to be able to get a full shift from one charge …

 

Getting it to work a 'full shift' is not difficult if it is not actually 'working' full time.

My 3 tonne digger as an 10 hour fuel tank - I get 'weeks' use out of it. 

 

It is was working a 'full shift' then I guess it would need refueling every shift.

[frangar]

9 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Is that the one where the guy put up a video on YouTube? Where he connected the huge diesel generator to a site transformer to recharge the thing? Other people commenting on his video seemed to be able to get a full shift from one charge …

I’ve recently done a “future fuels” conference..,even the plant manufacturers say electric is only good for things like digging out basements etc where fumes are an issue….batteries simply can’t cope with the loading & duty cycle of mainstream plant use. They are looking to synthetic fuels & hydrogen for those. 

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, frangar said:

And why not? I also enjoy a pint or two…and although I’m veggie I love a veggie fry up with fried bread etc….should that be stopped too?  Life is in fact fatal and there’s no getting round that…why not do what you enjoy while you are here rather than live till you are 100 in a sad existence?…oh and I love coal fired steam engines of all types….

 

Have you considered the environmental impact of making a new engine every few years along with the ECU etc and the rare metals that needs so you can feel green??….maybe ask those in developing countries where the minerals are mined how they are getting on and how their environment is? 

 

Why not indeed, it's your choice as to how healthily or otherwise you lead your life.

 

Not wishing to breath in diesel exhaust is rather different for being green.

 

I've never had a boat engine with an ecu, even recent ones: what sort of proportion do engines with ECUs make up amongst narrowboat diesels?

 

I doubt that the amount of rare metals in narrowboat engines is of much significance, apart perhaps for those boats powered by batteries and electric motors which may have more.