Hybrid drive conversion question

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

I don't care who the someone is, its so far ahead in the future its pie-in-the-sky anyway. Hopefully the lessons will be learned from the disjointed, sporadic way charging has been introduced for electric cars, where there are basically not enough charge points, that aren't fast enough, cost too much and are too much hassle to use (download apps, sign in to subscribe, etc). They've introduced some law which forces them to now accept contactless payment.....but the price, especially for high-rate charging, is still a joke.

There are many miles of canal where there are hardly any official mooring spots and most of our rivers even fewer, some offering almost no places to moor safely at all, such as the Nene. Often one can cruise for hours or sometimes days, looking for even a water tap or a rubbish bin!  Presumably, the provision of rank after rank of fast charging points would require a good power supply and great lengths of new mooring bollards/rings sufficient for tens of 60 - 70ft boats. 

 

Sure there are areas where getting power and infrastructure to existing mooring spots would be relatively inexpensive and easy, but there are many more areas where the siting of sufficient charging points would be an extremely difficult and expensive problem to overcome.

 

 

[Paul C]

2 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

There are many miles of canal where there are hardly any official mooring spots and most of our rivers even fewer, some offering almost no places to moor safely at all, such as the Nene. Often one can cruise for hours or sometimes days, looking for even a water tap or a rubbish bin!  Presumably, the provision of rank after rank of fast charging points would require a good power supply and great lengths of new mooring bollards/rings sufficient for tens of 60 - 70ft boats. 

 

Sure there are areas where getting power and infrastructure to existing mooring spots would be relatively inexpensive and easy, but there are many more areas where the siting of sufficient charging points would be an extremely difficult and expensive problem to overcome.

 

 

 

Very true...........but something I've learned over the years, is not to be too bothered by something which doesn't affect me. I believe one day, in the far future, there will be charging points on canals, at popular locations. If I'm still boating then, I shall use those popular locations. And I also believe that it will be possible to do an occasional non-charging overnight, much in the same way as you can fill up for diesel for (say) 3 weeks, but obviously it won't be 3 weeks of cruising on battery power. So, let's call them "rural" spots, will still be possible to moor in for those cruising thru.

 

People who use the rural spots predominantly and for long periods of time, have another issue to contend with alongside diesel, coal, gas, water, emptying the suitcase of shit, etc. Good luck to them, but its not my fight.

[Bargebuilder]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Very true...........but something I've learned over the years, is not to be too bothered by something which doesn't affect me

It's difficult to be accurate, but I would think that many times more boats moor in unofficial spots along the tow path than are able to find rings or bollards, not in town perhaps, but everywhere else.

 

Even if a narrowboat could cruise for two long days on a charge, that's far, far more official moorings needed than currently exist, let alone ones where mains electricity could be laid on for charging.

[IanD]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

Because EVs are a much larger market. Many (but not all) EV owners can charge at home and/or work, which is sufficient for most journeys, with occasional use of commercial fast chargers at locations such as motorway services for longer journeys. So the average EV owner doesn't need a widespread network of chargers.

That arrangement doesn't work for a week long boat trip where the boater needs guaranteed availability of chargers at every overnight mooring location, if an electric only boat is to be a practical option.

And add to that that government is promoting the installation of public EV chargers as a matter of policy. I can't see any corresponding encouragement (or public funding) for canal based charging points.

Yes EVs are a much larger market (about 1000x bigger, 35M vehicles vs. 35000 boats), but also need far more charging points, several million according to various estimates. Scale this down by 1000x and a few thousand charging points would be plenty to cover the entire UK canal network, in fact maybe even not this many -- so the numbers *do* add up.

 

The scale of the problem for canals is also 1000x smaller, in fact all it would need is for all the installers of commercial EV charging points to contribute a tiny part of the cost (less than 1%?) towards building the canal network and the financial problem would disappear. But this needs interest and joined-up thinking from the government, which is sadly lacking... 😞

[IanD]

10 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

It's difficult to be accurate, but I would think that many times more boats moor in unofficial spots along the tow path than are able to find rings or bollards, not in town perhaps, but everywhere else.

 

Even if a narrowboat could cruise for two long days on a charge, that's far, far more official moorings needed than currently exist, let alone ones where mains electricity could be laid on for charging.

 

If you look at the amount of cruising that narrowboats actually do -- because only a small number cruise a lot of the time, many of these being hire boats -- and where the points would be needed, it's actually nothing like as bad as you make out. For a start all hire bases, boatyards and marinas could easily install them; so could any shops and supermarkets and pubs next to the canal, because they would make money by selling the power. It would also be simple to install a charging point anywhere that the power grid crosses the canal, there are lots of places where the local HV distribution grid (usually 3-phase 11kV on poles) crosses the canal, all that's needed is a pole-mounted transformer to supply the charging point.

 

Boats which are moored don't need charging points -- at least for a large part of the year -- if they install solar panels, which are cheap nowadays. But they do need a solution for during the winter...

 

And as you say, boats which moor along the towpath would have a problem, especially when they can't rely on solar -- which may mean that this practice ends up effectively being stopped.

 

It's not an easy problem to solve but it's not impossible given some lateral thinking, changes in behaviour, and an incentive from the government to make it happen -- and if they don't do it, how else are the canals going to go "green" like in their "ban diesel" plan?

 

Changes in behaviour are needed in many areas (transport, homes, shipping, farming, industry...) to combat climate change, we can't just carry on as before -- and canals are just another one of these areas.

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

10 hours ago, Paul C said:

People who use the rural spots predominantly and for long periods of time, have another issue to contend with alongside diesel, coal, gas, water, emptying the suitcase of shit, etc. Good luck to them, but its not my fight.

The issue of charging points doesn't only affect people who predominantly moor in rural spots. Many people who own their own NBs take one, two or three week holidays and like to cover lots of miles, perhaps doing a ring, but will almost inevitably pass along miles of canals and or rivers where frequent and plentiful charging points just wouldn't be economical to install and maintain.

 

Hire boaters likewise often want to make the fullest use of their quite expensive holiday experience by going as far as possible, where charging points may be scarce or non-existent. If they, having nearly exhausted their battery, find that there are no charging points available, what do they do? 

 

Could there ever be enough charging points, unless people also have diesel generators? 

 

Of course wide beams can carry solar panels enough for several hours cruising each day in the height of summer, but is the same true of narrowboats, particularly the shorter ones?

[Bargebuilder]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

boats which moor along the towpath would have a problem, especially when they can't rely on solar -- which may mean that this practice ends up effectively being stopped

I do 400 miles plus each year and I pass hundreds of boats that do few hours each day and 'wild' moor, far more than there are official rings or bollards.

 

I, and I suspect many others, avoid at all costs town moorings where charging points are most likely to be.

 

How long does it take to charge a narrowboat with a battery bank capable of powering say, two long day's cruising?

 

Will cruising points be like water taps restricting mooring to the time taken to charge, or is it more likely that people will moor up early afternoon and hog the charging point until the next morning?

 

I foresee that there will be many cruisers desperately looking for power as they pass by occupied charging stations.

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I do 400 miles plus each year and I pass hundreds of boats that do few hours each day and 'wild' moor, far more than there are official rings or bollards.

 

I, and I suspect many others, avoid at all costs town moorings where charging points are most likely to be.

 

How long does it take to charge a narrowboat with a battery bank capable of powering say, two long day's cruising?

 

Will cruising points be like water taps restricting mooring to the time taken to charge, or is it more likely that people will moor up early afternoon and hog the charging point until the next morning?

 

I foresee that there will be many cruisers desperately looking for power as they pass by occupied charging stations.

 

And all that is a problem, assuming that having enough solar on the boat won't see you through -- which it will in summer, but not in the depths of winter. Which then raises the question of how to heat the boat in winter if fossil fuel use is also phased out...

 

Charging is most likely to be overnight (like most EVs) rather than fast charging, which needs much more expensive infrastructure to support the high power levels as well as much more expensive hardware on the boats. A 16A charging station will fully charge a typical 2-day battery bank (35kWh in my case) from 0% to 100% overnight at 0.1C, a 32A one (7kW) faster (0.2C) but still too slow to fully recharge while refilling water (for example) since the rate would be 20% per hour. To fast charge (less than an hour) needs maybe a 50kW charger, which needs a much beefier power feed from the grid but also much more expensive systems on board the boat.

 

But the only alternative is to carry on burning diesel, which seems likely to be increasingly difficult due to cost/emissions. For boaters who really can't switch to EV, burning HVO would be a big improvement on diesel from the environmental point of view, and need no changes in infrastructure apart from getting tanks at marinas and boatyards filled with it. If boaters also used diesel heaters burning HVO this would also solve the heating problem, or at least make it much less of a problem for CO2.

 

As I said, the whole issue with climate change and pollution and the environment is that we *can't* carry on "as normal", things have to change. The challenge is to find ways to do this that either have a positive impact on people's lives or at least the smallest negative one.

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

As I said, the whole issue with climate change and pollution and the environment is that we *can't* carry on "as normal", things have to change.

 

Its amazing how things can change.

Since having energy supply problems the EU has now redefined 'gas' as a green energy, and in Germany they are reopening coal mines.

A case of 'what we need now' rather than worrying about the future.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Its amazing how things can change.

Since having energy supply problems the EU has now redefined 'gas' as a green energy, and in Germany they are reopening coal mines.

A case of 'what we need now' rather than worrying about the future.

 

Because when an emergency hits you have to stay alive to be able to do the right thing in future, even if this means going the wrong way in the short term?

 

Which doesn't mean worrying about the future and planning to do something about it is wrong, if anything it makes it even more essential to move away from fossil fuels as fast as possible...

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

14 hours ago, IanD said:

Why is this any different to EV charging points?

 

The real problem is chicken-and-egg; until there are enough electric/hybrid boats to use them nobody will install system-wide charging points, but until there are system-wide charging points an electric-only boat isn't feasible for most people and a hybrid with a generator is too expensive...

 

Which means the private sector (who will only install points if they make money) won't solve the problem, however desirable it is to convert the canals to electric propulsion.

 

So the money (and the drive to make it happen) would have to come from the government (because it's a "green infrastructure" issue) -- but they don't have any interest in doing this... 😞

More than double what can fit on a narrowboat -- that's what matters, not the exact numbers... 😉

I am twice as fat as yours though 🤣🤣🤣🤣😩

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I am twice as fat as yours though 🤣🤣🤣🤣😩

Yes, a large section of the UK population *is* obese nowadays... 😉

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Which then raises the question of how to heat the boat in winter if fossil fuel use is also phased out...

If fossil fuel is phased out or just unaffordable, then all those continuous moorers that need to move occasionally to get water or to empty the loo will be in trouble. Fitting batteries, control gear and electric motors will likely be beyond their pocket. For the genuine CCers, needing to move every 14 days will be impossible for the same reason.

 

Even if someone funds the infrastructure for a wide and abundant network of charging stations, the hobby of boating is going to become very exclusive indeed. 

 

On the plus side, those who can afford it will have the network to themselves. Can I hear those who cruise through Bath cheering?

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

If fossil fuel is phased out or just unaffordable, then all those continuous moorers that need to move occasionally to get water or to empty the loo will be in trouble. Fitting batteries, control gear and electric motors will likely be beyond their pocket. For the genuine CCers, needing to move every 14 days will be impossible for the same reason.

 

Even if someone funds the infrastructure for a wide and abundant network of charging stations, the hobby of boating is going to become very exclusive indeed. 

 

On the plus side, those who can afford it will have the network to themselves. Can I hear those who cruise through Bath cheering?

Which is why I said that HVO is the best solution for those who can't go electric for whatever reason...

 

It's like cars, most will switch to EVs over time but a few whose needs aren't met (e.g. cheap long-distance towers) will stick with diesel -- or maybe HVO there too, though it's a lot harder than for boats since the quantities needed are far higher and supply is limited.

 

Just because electric isn't the right solution for everybody doesn't mean it isn't the best solution for most people, we shouldn't reject good because it's not perfect... 😉

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 For a start all hire bases, boatyards and marinas could easily install them; so could any shops and supermarkets and pubs next to the canal, because they would make money by selling the power. It would also be simple to install a charging point anywhere that the power grid crosses the canal, there are lots of places where the local HV distribution grid (usually 3-phase 11kV on poles) crosses the canal, all that's needed is a pole-mounted transformer to supply the charging point.

Your ignoring the chicken and egg point. Initially there will be few electric boats to use a charge point, so the early revenue will be minimal. Yet the capital cost of the transformer, trenching, ducting, cabling, charge point etc. are high, so there will be no financial return until there is a widespread network of charging points and a large number of electric boats. So (almost) nobody is going to be an early investor in canalside charge points. This is very different from BEV owner who can install his own home charge point, and has little need for remote charging. 

And the government support and funding for public EV chargers on public roads and car parks just won't be replicated for a leisure activity like canal boating. I can only see electric boating continuing as a niche activity for the true enthusiasts, day hire boats (which go back to the same base for overnight charging) and those who fit an ICE generator to their boats. 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Your ignoring the chicken and egg point. Initially there will be few electric boats to use a charge point, so the early revenue will be minimal. Yet the capital cost of the transformer, trenching, ducting, cabling, charge point etc. are high, so there will be no financial return until there is a widespread network of charging points and a large number of electric boats. So (almost) nobody is going to be an early investor in canalside charge points. This is very different from BEV owner who can install his own home charge point, and has little need for remote charging. 

And the government support and funding for public EV chargers on public roads and car parks just won't be replicated for a leisure activity like canal boating. I can only see electric boating continuing as a niche activity for the true enthusiasts, day hire boats (which go back to the same base for overnight charging) and those who fit an ICE generator to their boats. 

 

I'm certainly not ignoring the chicken and egg point, that's word for word what I said a few posts back... 😉

 

The problem could be solved with government/CART funding but there seems to be no interest in doing this. Without that it will stay as a niche activity, assuming diesel engines running on HVO are allowed to continue which doesn't seem to be government policy. They've done the usual thing of announcing a nice-sounding green policy without actually thinking about how to make it happen or why it won't work unless they take some action i.e. spend some money... 😞

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

he problem could be solved with government/CART funding but there seems to be no interest in doing this.

 

Why should the Government spend 'millions' of pounds 'investing in electrifying the canals'?  into a totally discretionary pastime for 0.05% of the population with no chance of ever recouping the costs.

Investment is normally made on the basis that your investment will see a return.

 

There are 27,000 civil aircraft registered in the UK of which 96% are used in GA (general aviation - ie  'leisure' rather than commercial, so not a hugely different number to 'canal boats'), can you imagine the uproar if HMG gave (say) £100m to electrify the canals ?

 

There are some 300,000 (RYA figures) coastal based leisure boats, can you imagine the uproar if HMG gave (say) £100m to electrify the canals ?

 

I think. if you seriously expect HMG to have any involvement in paying for the electrification of the canals you'll soon be getting a visit from the nice men in white coats inviting you to have a long holiday in a large country mansion house.

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Why should the Government spend 'millions' of pounds 'investing in electrifying the canals'?  into a totally discretionary pastime for 0.05% of the population with no chance of ever recouping the costs.

Investment is normally made on the basis that your investment will see a return.

 

There are 27,000 civil aircraft registered in the UK of which 96% are used in GA (general aviation - ie  'leisure' rather than commercial, so not a hugely different number to 'canal boats'), can you imagine the uproar if HMG gave (say) £100m to electrify the canals ?

 

There are some 300,000 (RYA figures) coastal based leisure boats, can you imagine the uproar if HMG gave (say) £100m to electrify the canals ?

 

I think. if you seriously expect HMG to have any involvement in paying for the electrification of the canals you'll soon be getting a visit from the nice men in white coats inviting you to have a long holiday in a large country mansion house.

 

I didn't say that they would do it -- or even should -- but on one hand they say they want boats to stop burning diesel, on the other hand they have no intention of providing any way to make this happen.

 

Either they conclude that it doesn't make any sense for CO2 emissions -- because electrifying 35000 boats will have less than 0.1% of the impact of electrifying 35M cars -- and admit that diesels burning HVO is an acceptable solution (but not perfect) for canal boats, or they need to find a way to make canal electrification happen, which means someone has to pay for it.

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why should the Government spend 'millions' of pounds 'investing in electrifying the canals'?

Indeed, why should they?

 

So HVO for both main engines and generators is the only future for boating, assuming it is available and permitted?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

someone has to pay for it.

 

At the end of the day, the only way I can see it working is for 'the user to pay' and that isn't going to happen.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

Indeed, why should they?

 

So HVO for both main engines and generators is the only future for boating, assuming it is available and permitted?

If the government was being logical -- yes.

 

But government policies are often driven by ideology or arbitrary policies not a realistic analysis of what the best solution really is, so don't hold your breath... 😞

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Bargebuilder said:

Indeed, why should they?

 

So HVO for both main engines and generators is the only future for boating, assuming it is available and permitted?

 

or, other alternatives that allow the existing engine to 'run clean'.

 

Maersk, the world’s largest shipping company, is banking on a mix of new fuels. Last year it invested in a US company that manufactures green methane, and in a startup company that is trying to produce carbon-based electrofuels from direct air capture of CO2

 

Bio-Fuel is really a non starter long term as it takes valuable agricultural land and instead of 'feeding the nation' will now be used to power a few boats.

Biofuels can reduce CO2 emissions by as much as 80%, but they are derived from plants – and growing vast swathes of plants for fuel means intensively farmed monocultures of palm oil or corn or soya beans, which means deforestation.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

At the end of the day, the only way I can see it working is for 'the user to pay' and that isn't going to happen.

 

Correct -- it's like composting toilets, if everyone used them them a network of disposal points would make sense, but it doesn't when only a few use them, the cost per boat would be prohibitive. To allow electric boats to work the whole network needs charging points, but there can't be a lot of electric boats until then, so the few existing ones can't possible pay for the network even if it would work once most boats are electric.

 

Chicken and egg again... 😞

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

or, other alternatives that allow the existing engine to 'run clean'.

 

Maersk, the world’s largest shipping company, is banking on a mix of new fuels. Last year it invested in a US company that manufactures green methane, and in a startup company that is trying to produce carbon-based electrofuels from direct air capture of CO2

 

Bio-Fuel is really a non starter long term as it takes valuable agricultural land and instead of 'feeding the nation' will now be used to power a few boats.

Biofuels can reduce CO2 emissions by as much as 80%, but they are derived from plants – and growing vast swathes of plants for fuel means intensively farmed monocultures of palm oil or corn or soya beans, which means deforestation.

Biofuel (or HVO) is a nonstarter for EVs and ships because they need massive amounts of it. It's perfectly sensible for 35000 boats which need 1000x less of it.

 

All the "green methane" and "electrofuel from air" ideas for big energy users (EVs, trucks, ships) are thermodynamically illiterate due to terrible overall efficiency, unless there is so much renewable power around that we can afford to waste most of it -- which isn't the case, and probably never will be until fusion comes along...

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

To allow electric boats to work the whole network needs charging points, but there can't be a lot of electric boats until then, so the few existing ones can't possible pay for the network even if it would work once most boats are electric.

It's a guess, but I suspect that only a small proportion of current or prospective NB owners could afford either a new electric boat or even to convert an existing one. For this reason, there will never be enough electric boats to either pay for charging points, or to justify the investment of others.

 

 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

It's a guess, but I suspect that only a small proportion of current or prospective NB owners could afford either a new electric boat or even to convert an existing one. For this reason, there will never be enough electric boats to either pay for charging points, or to justify the investment of others.

 

That's a sweeping statement like saying "EVs will never take over the car market" -- never is a very long time, and like with EVs change won't happen immediately.

 

Just like EVs, at some point in the future where it becomes cheaper to install and run electric than diesel more and more will switch over, not just new build but refurbishments. It'll take a long time for the fleet to switch over, because boats have a long lifetime. It's estimated that it'll take until at least 2035 for half the cars on the roads to be EVs and EV rollout (half of new cars in 2025?) is already *way* ahead of boats, I'd guess at least 20 years from now (mid 2040s, maybe 2050) for boats to reach this point.

 

Which is a long time, but isn't "never"... 😉

 

But all this assumes a charging network gets rolled out, and right now there's no sign of that happening or any thought-out plan about how to make it happen, or when... 😞

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD