BMC 1.5 engine issues

[Olive87]

Hi all,

 

We’ve woken up this morning to the very disappointing news that we may need a new engine and wanted to post on this forum to get your thoughts. 
 

The engineer wants to spend a couple of days in the engine to diagnose and see if it’s worth saving (at a cost of £300) but so far he’s said the following: 

- missing raw water pump and the raw water is going through the engine coolant system which shouldnt be happening and could mean the gnine is full of mud

- air was coming from a crack in a cylinder head or the head gasket is blown

 

We will likely get a second opinion from another engineer but wanted to check on here first to get any thoughts as we recently purchased the boat and are new to this. We negotiated the cost of the boat down after getting a survey given some overplating was needed but were hoping a full engine replacement would not be needed. 

 

Thank you,

Natasha 

[Mad Harold]

2 minutes ago, Olive87 said:

Hi all,

 

We’ve woken up this morning to the very disappointing news that we may need a new engine and wanted to post on this forum to get your thoughts. 
 

The engineer wants to spend a couple of days in the engine to diagnose and see if it’s worth saving (at a cost of £300) but so far he’s said the following: 

- missing raw water pump and the raw water is going through the engine coolant system which shouldnt be happening and could mean the gnine is full of mud

- air was coming from a crack in a cylinder head or the head gasket is blown

 

We will likely get a second opinion from another engineer but wanted to check on here first to get any thoughts as we recently purchased the boat and are new to this. We negotiated the cost of the boat down after getting a survey given some overplating was needed but were hoping a full engine replacement would not be needed. 

 

Thank you,

Natasha 

There are several BMC experienced people on here who I am sure will be happy to advise.

It would be immensly helpful if you could post as many pictures of the engine as possible and the fullest description of the engine that you can.

Fom your brief description, it is not possible to give any meaningful advice, but if the raw water pump is missing, it may be that the engine circulation pump has been cobbled up to the raw water inlet, and that is inadequate for drawing water for cooling, perhaps causing overheating and a cracked cylinder head or blown gasket.

[Alan de Enfield]

It is a tough call.

If it is found to be cracked head and a complete strip down to clean out the mud there could be additional problems from gritty sediment in the water, you will only find out by spending the £300, it could then cost £XXXX (£2000 ? maybe) to have complete rebuild, (the waterpump on my boat is £400 alone, but your may be a different type / design), alternatively find a PROPERLY reconditioned engine for £3000 ? and have it fitted, knowing that (hopefully) you will be problem free.

 

Some suppliers of engine rebuilds simply wash them down and spray paint them so they are clean and shiney - if you go down the route of a replacement engine ask for full deatils of what the rebuild comprised of, and what warranty they give.

 

You could spend £300 (above what you have already paid him) and decide to have a second opinion (£???) and both of them tell you in is not economical to rebuild it.

 

Just for future reference (no help now) but if you are not knowlegable about boats and their systems it is worth paying a little more and having a full survey that includes "Hull, Structure, Fittings & Machinery" that way you will get an engine report (including internals using an oil analysis).

 

Hope you get sorted.

[john.k]

Taking the head off and seeing if its cracked shouldnt cost 300 quid...............anyhoo,If the water pump is missing,how is the water being circulated?..........running a boat engine on direct freshwater cooling isnt the end of the world..............different if its been in saltwater.

[BEngo]

Raw water cooling is not uncommon.  If there is mud in the engine it can be washed out.  I am not sure what is circulating the water  if there is no separate raw water pump, but it is not impossible that the engine pump is doing that.  If the raw water pump has been removed then new ones can be had.  Either electrical or mechanically driven ones are available.

 

A blown head gasket is not difficult to repair, provided the head is not warped,  and that is easily checked and can be corrected.

 

A cracked head would be more serious, but heads can be found.  

 

Calcutt boats and ASAP  are the two main suppliers of BMC parts.

 

 

 In the unlikely event that the current engine is only fit for spares, the easiest and cheapest solution is a replacement of the same type.  That avoids expensive changes to the mounting  exhaust, wiring, fuel  etc. etc.

 

N

[Olive87]

This is all incredibly helpful, thank you. We haven’t paid anything yet as it’s our mates mate who looked at it. Take the point on getting a full survey; I didn’t know that a more extensive survey than a pre purchase survey was possible if I’m honest! The survey did indicate some issues which we spoke through with the surveyor and took the call that it was likely worth the risk. In hindsight could have got an engineer to look at that point, but what’s done is done. 

 

I can post some photos of the engine tomorrow. I will post below the part of the pre purchase survey relevant to the engine as this is the most detailed info I have on the engine - it’s quite long so apologies!

The narrowboat was powered by a naturally aspirated, four-cylinder, BMC 1.5 diesel engine.
The engine was solid-mounted on strong fore and aft girders that were welded to the hull in the engine compartment. Engine bolts were hammer tested and the forward port bolt was loose.
Tighten forward port engine mounting bolt. Complete within one month.

The following checks were made.
• Oil checked under filler cap for dirt and emulsion; none found
• Engine oil dipstick checked to reveal correct oil level; no untoward odour, colour
or emulsion seen in oil.
• Coolant in heat exchanger – low, ensure coolant is topped up before running the
engine.
The alternator belt was very loose, which will affect efficient charging of the batteries.
Tighten alternator belt and check tightness periodically.
Oil in the gearbox was clean and had no emulsion.
The engine was cooled with a closed-circuit heat exchanger and a cooling tank mounted on the port stern swim plate. The radiator cap was defective and should be replaced. Where seen hoses and hose clamps were in serviceable condition. A clear reinforced hose connected the engine to the cooling tank. These hoses are usually specified for temperatures up to 60°C – coolant temperatures are normally between 80°C to 90°C.
Replace radiator cap. 
Page 5 of 13 © www.isis-marine.co.uk

 Advice -  Replace clear reinforced hose in engine cooling circuit with 'radiator' hose. Complete
before the engine is run.
The dry exhaust was discharged via an automotive silencer box, the exhaust was satisfactorily lagged.
The engine was started while Narrowboat Escape was afloat. The engine was sluggish to start, appeared to misfire at first and the exhaust emitted excessive quantities of white smoke (indicative of unburned diesel). I noted fuel and white smoke emanating from the second injector. It may not have been fully tighten. White smoke can be indicative of injectors that need servicing.
The single lever engine control operated smoothly and the engine speed responded accordingly. The forward and reverse gears engaged; the engine stop killed the engine. The pillar for the controls did not have a top which should be fitted to protect the controls from the weather.
The engine was run at a range of engine speeds. I noted an unusual 'tick' that appeared to emanate from the injector pump and could indicate wear. The temperature gauge did not register a reading while the engine was run for a short while and the voltmeter appeared to be defective.
The inspection of the engine found a number of defects. It would be prudent to arrange service and assessment of the engine's condition.
Commission a marine engineer to service the engine and access its condition, including servicing of injectors and rectifying other defects noted in this survey report.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Olive87 said:

The following checks were made.
• Oil checked under filler cap for dirt and emulsion; none found
• Engine oil dipstick checked to reveal correct oil level; no untoward odour, colour
or emulsion seen in oil.

 

If the oil was emusified that could be indicative of a cracked head or gasket failure - so, that could be 'good news'.

 

 

From the rest of the report, it could be just the surveyor 'arse covering' but it does sound like it is more than overdue for some remedial work

 

6 minutes ago, Olive87 said:

The inspection of the engine found a number of defects. It would be prudent to arrange service and assessment of the engine's condition.
Commission a marine engineer to service the engine and access its condition, including servicing of injectors and rectifying other defects noted in this survey report.

 

[Olive87]

He did say that - he of course has to cover himself. We spoke through it extensively with him and he felt he would take the risk for the price we negotiated, but said that the engine could be a risk. We decided to go ahead on that basis… 

[Mad Harold]

Your surveyor's report seems quite comprehensive. 

I am a little puzzled by the fact that he didn't mention a missing raw water pump, and your engineer did!

Outboard engines are frequently nicked, but raw water pumps?

[Tony Brooks]

I suspect the engineer may not recognise a direct raw water cooled engine when he sees one, I doubt a 1.8 was ever direct raw water cooled but the 1.5 bits would fit and there would  be a blanking plate where the automotive engine water would be. there would also be a brass pump elsewhere for the raw water. This is why we need photos, especially of the front of the engine but all around as well.

[Iain_S]

3 hours ago, Olive87 said:

(snip)

The engine was cooled with a closed-circuit heat exchanger and a cooling tank mounted on the port stern swim 

The dry exhaust was discharged via an automotive silencer box, 

(snip)

This sounds like skin tank cooling, in which case there wouldn’t be a need for a raw water pump. 

[Olive87]

Thanks all. I will take a load of photos tomorrow when I’m next on the boat and  upload. Cheers 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

This sounds like skin tank cooling, in which case there wouldn’t be a need for a raw water pump. 

 

Missed that. However it does not mean the "mechanic" knew about tank cooled dry exhaust engines and was looking for a Jabsco type pump of it is a direct raw water cooled type system coupled to a skin tank, We will have to wait for the photos.

[Tracy D'arth]

Mechanic not conversant with skin tank cooling? I would not expect there to be a raw water pump.

Loose smoking injector is new copper washers, should be an easy fix.

If really required a head gasket and top end overhaul is minor job.

Do not buy a recon engine from anyone spurious, certainly not from a firm that rhymes with quay or RCR if you value your sanity. Just my and many others' experience.  Confusion, is it a 1.5 or a 1.8?

 

Where are you moored?

[Tony Brooks]

Correct me if I am wrong but I can't see anything about smoke or air from the cylinder head gasket in the survey yet the surveyor noticed a blowing injector. Something sounds suspicious to me and at present it is not the survey.

 

The white smoke on start up is common on older BMCs and once the glow plugs have been checked it may well be worn out and partially blocked injectors. Roughly where is the boat because it sounds to me as if you could do with a knowledgeable member taking a quick look.

 

Although not impossible I have doubts about a 1.5 being solid mounted to the beds but if you have not seen an early version it may look as if it is.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

Correct me if I am wrong but I can't see anything about smoke or air from the cylinder head gasket in the survey yet the surveyor noticed a blowing injector. Something sounds suspicious to me and at present it is not the survey.

 

The white smoke on start up is common on older BMCs and once the glow plugs have been checked it may well be worn out and partially blocked injectors. Roughly where is the boat because it sounds to me as if you could do with a knowledgeable member taking a quick look.

 

Although not impossible I have doubts about a 1.5 being solid mounted to the beds but if you have not seen an early version it may look as if it is.

Agree with all that Tony. I have seen them solid mounted in wooden hulls or even on wooden bearers but the survey says steel.

They could be the old button rubber mounts that have as usual collapsed to near nothing.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Agree with all that Tony. I have seen them solid mounted in wooden hulls or even on wooden bearers but the survey says steel.

They could be the old button rubber mounts that have as usual collapsed to near nothing.

 

Or the old Metalastic top hats at the back but which a modern surveyor may not recognize and the front cross memeber that caries the automotive rubber mounts looks for all the world like a solid mounting until you look carefully.

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If the oil was emusified that could be indicative of a cracked head or gasket failure - so, that could be 'good news'.

 

 

From the rest of the report, it could be just the surveyor 'arse covering' but it does sound like it is more than overdue for some remedial work

 

 

He did mention coolant in the header tank which is strange if raw water is being pumped round.

6 hours ago, Olive87 said:

This is all incredibly helpful, thank you. We haven’t paid anything yet as it’s our mates mate who looked at it. Take the point on getting a full survey; I didn’t know that a more extensive survey than a pre purchase survey was possible if I’m honest! The survey did indicate some issues which we spoke through with the surveyor and took the call that it was likely worth the risk. In hindsight could have got an engineer to look at that point, but what’s done is done. 

 

I can post some photos of the engine tomorrow. I will post below the part of the pre purchase survey relevant to the engine as this is the most detailed info I have on the engine - it’s quite long so apologies!

The narrowboat was powered by a naturally aspirated, four-cylinder, BMC 1.5 diesel engine.
The engine was solid-mounted on strong fore and aft girders that were welded to the hull in the engine compartment. Engine bolts were hammer tested and the forward port bolt was loose.
Tighten forward port engine mounting bolt. Complete within one month.

The following checks were made.
• Oil checked under filler cap for dirt and emulsion; none found
• Engine oil dipstick checked to reveal correct oil level; no untoward odour, colour
or emulsion seen in oil.
• Coolant in heat exchanger – low, ensure coolant is topped up before running the
engine.
The alternator belt was very loose, which will affect efficient charging of the batteries.
Tighten alternator belt and check tightness periodically.
Oil in the gearbox was clean and had no emulsion.
The engine was cooled with a closed-circuit heat exchanger and a cooling tank mounted on the port stern swim plate. The radiator cap was defective and should be replaced. Where seen hoses and hose clamps were in serviceable condition. A clear reinforced hose connected the engine to the cooling tank. These hoses are usually specified for temperatures up to 60°C – coolant temperatures are normally between 80°C to 90°C.
Replace radiator cap. 
Page 5 of 13 © www.isis-marine.co.uk

 Advice -  Replace clear reinforced hose in engine cooling circuit with 'radiator' hose. Complete
before the engine is run.
The dry exhaust was discharged via an automotive silencer box, the exhaust was satisfactorily lagged.
The engine was started while Narrowboat Escape was afloat. The engine was sluggish to start, appeared to misfire at first and the exhaust emitted excessive quantities of white smoke (indicative of unburned diesel). I noted fuel and white smoke emanating from the second injector. It may not have been fully tighten. White smoke can be indicative of injectors that need servicing.
The single lever engine control operated smoothly and the engine speed responded accordingly. The forward and reverse gears engaged; the engine stop killed the engine. The pillar for the controls did not have a top which should be fitted to protect the controls from the weather.
The engine was run at a range of engine speeds. I noted an unusual 'tick' that appeared to emanate from the injector pump and could indicate wear. The temperature gauge did not register a reading while the engine was run for a short while and the voltmeter appeared to be defective.
The inspection of the engine found a number of defects. It would be prudent to arrange service and assessment of the engine's condition.
Commission a marine engineer to service the engine and access its condition, including servicing of injectors and rectifying other defects noted in this survey report.

Is your mate of a mate a boat engine fitter or a car mechanic? He may not be conversant with the cooling system

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is your mate of a mate a boat engine fitter or a car mechanic? He may not be conversant with the cooling system

 

Exactly my thoughts and quiet possibly not much idea about 1.5s

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, Olive87 said:

but so far he’s said the following: 

- missing raw water pump and the raw water is going through the engine coolant system which shouldnt be happening and could mean the gnine is full of mud

 

And the surveyor said

"The engine was cooled with a closed-circuit heat exchanger and a cooling tank mounted on the port stern swim plate. The radiator cap was defective and should be replaced. Where seen hoses and hose clamps were in serviceable condition. A clear reinforced hose connected the engine to the cooling tank. These hoses are usually specified for temperatures up to 60°C – coolant temperatures are normally between 80°C to 90°C.
Replace radiator cap."

 

This doesnt all add up

[Olive87]

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate all your insight. We are moored in Harlesden on the grand union at the moment.

 

Natasha

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Olive87 said:

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate all your insight. We are moored in Harlesden on the grand union at the moment.

 

Natasha

 

That may be an issue to get a member to have a look because it is too close to London for my liking, too easy to caught in a low emission zone. Actually I think it is on the Paddington Arm rather than the Grand Union proper. You may also have problems getting a decent engineer.  It may pay you to join the London Boaters Facebook page for info abut London Boating. I suspect most of the members here avoid the place where possible.

[Tracy D'arth]

Be better and cheaper to make your way north where engineers are more plentiful, economical and possibly knowledgeable.

 

With respect if I am wrong but I think the guy who has looked at it does not know the engine, canal boats or its foibles. 

[Troyboy]

From the replies on here you can see that your friend of a friend knows very little about BMC 1.5 diesel engines . The missing water pump was missing because the engine doesn't need one or rather another one , there will be one on the engine  . There will be no mud in the cooling system because it does not use canal water in the cooling system . You are in the fortunate position of owning a simple engine where spares are readily available and cheap and easy to fix . I have owned my narrowboat for almost 35 years and it has a solid mounted BMC 1.5 engine . The plus side of solid mounting is the engine doesn't move so less likely to vibrate causing pipes to break or stern tube to need frequent repacking . The down side is it vibrates the boat causing windows to rattle at certain revs , I cannot tell you at what revs as I don't have a rev counter .

The surveyors report on the engine is quite positive , I suspect if you fitted new heater / glow plugs to the engine and used a 11/32 drill to reamer out the carbon the engine would start almost instantly . A new set of  glow plugs off Ebay costs £21. If you did need a new head, which I seriously doubt you do, a secondhand one again from Ebay would cost £175. with a head gasket set costing £22-50p. The injectors probably need servicing but might be OK for the time being once the leaking one is tightened up . You started off saying you woke up to the disappointing news that you may need a new engine ,I think you can go to bed tonight fairly certain that isn't the case but what you do need is a good mechanic who knows about BMC 1.5 diesels . 

[Troyboy]

I'm now having second thoughts about the drill size to reamer out the carbon  I'll have to double check that.