Size matters

[Grass is Greener]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Why, are you planning towing lighters?

 

Not my intention, but the service is there if you want it?  I may have misread, or read correctly that widebeams slow traffic, so it was my assumption that a slightly more powerful engine would not restrict moaning tailgater's. I'm happy to hear if this wouldn't be the case... 

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I'm sure I will upgrade from the 56bhp that appears to be the usual offering to a 75bhp

 

 

56 hp sounds like plenty to my admittedly inexperienced eyes. 

 

The one thing I would really make sure of is that they fit a high quality and powerful alternator, because in winter you want to get your battery charging done fast, and you dont want to be running the engine for hours every single day.

 

I have a crappy alternator that is officially rated at 100 amps, but when I started using it to charge my lithium batteries, the alternator overheated if it put out more than 45 amps. 

So not all 100 amp alternators will be able to put out 100 amps continuously, and your battery charging system will be really important.  

I would be looking for an alternator that is rated at 160 to 200 amps, so it can provide 100-120 amps with no stress or overheating at all.   

 

I would imagine anything fitted to a 56ho will be decent, but worth checking.

There are some sub-optimal features (like my gas locker that only holds a single bottle) that might creep into the build if you dont keep an eye on things. 

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, Grass is Greener said:

Not my intention, but the service is there if you want it?  I may have misread, or read correctly that widebeams slow traffic, so it was my assumption that a slightly more powerful engine would not restrict moaning tailgater's. I'm happy to hear if this wouldn't be the case... 

Widebeams slow traffic because they take up so much of the channel cross section that the water can't easily come past the other way. Just increasing the engine power sucks the stern of the boat down, further reducing the channel area for the water, resulting in increased noise, increased fuel consumption, more wave damage to unprotected banks, yet makes b****r all difference to your speed over the ground.

And also because in many cases a widebeam has all the hydrodynamic qualities of a brick, meaning it cannot be steered in a straight line (not helped in some cases by wheel steering, or the inability of a steerer of shorter stature to see round the enormous cabin), so that brisk progress gives way to endless meandering across the canal. More power is a hindrance, not a help.

[Grass is Greener]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Widebeams slow traffic because they take up so much of the channel cross section that the water can't easily come past the other way. Just increasing the engine power sucks the stern of the boat down, further reducing the channel area for the water, resulting in increased noise, increased fuel consumption, more wave damage to unprotected banks, yet makes b****r all difference to your speed over the ground.

And also because in many cases a widebeam has all the hydrodynamic qualities of a brick, meaning it cannot be steered in a straight line (not helped in some cases by wheel steering, or the inability of a steerer of shorter stature to see round the enormous cabin), so that brisk progress gives way to endless meandering across the canal. More power is a hindrance, not a help.

Fair points, David. Thanks for the detailed explanation. It all helps to understand the pros and cons moving forward without the need for the extra bhp. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Grass is Greener

[blackrose]

40 minutes ago, David Mack said:

This!!

You are about to spend a huge amount of money and time on a boat, with little experience to tell you what works and what doesn't. When finished, a nearly new boat with an owner fitout will not be worth the money you have spent, let alone the time you have put in. Whereas a 5-10 year old boat in reasonable condition will cost less in the first place and will more or less hold its value.

And since you are worried about cruising range, buy a narrow boat first, and see if you can live with the limited room. You could even  restrict your cruising to the wide waterways at first to see if that is something you can live with, while still having the option to go further afield if northern waters end up feeling constraining.

And if 2 or 3 years down the line you still want to fitout a widebeam, you can do so with much more confidence of a successful outcome. 

 

Having fitted out a widebeam 17 years ago which I'm still living on I tend to agree with David. Have a look at the second hand/unfinished project boat market first before commiting to a new build.

[blackrose]

38 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I'm sure I will upgrade from the 56bhp that appears to be the usual offering to a 75bhp

 

As your boat will be limited by its hull speed I probably wouldn't bother. I once had a "burn up" on the Thames with a mate on his 60 x 12ft widebeam with 70hp Isuzu, while I was on my 57 x 12ft widebeam with 55hp Isuzu. It was neck & neck all the way.

 

That was before I had my prop repitched to release a lot more power.

[Grass is Greener]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Having fitted out a widebeam 17 years ago which I'm still living on I tend to agree with David. Have a look at the second hand/unfinished project boat market first before commiting to a new build.

Hi Blackrose, thanks for this comment. There doesn't appear to be a great deal of choice out there for a second hand/unfinished project for me to consider. I'm not rushing matters by any stretch, and I am open to looking at alternative options. Like most people, I would prefer something that is me, not someone else's design or furnishings. Where would you suggest looking for such a project? I've been on many used websites.

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

As your boat will be limited by its hull speed I probably wouldn't bother. I once had a "burn up" on the Thames with a mate on his 60 x 12ft widebeam with 70hp Isuzu, while I was on my 57 x 12ft widebeam with 55hp Isuzu. It was neck & neck all the way.

 

That was before I had my prop repitched to release a lot more power.

 

[blackrose]

25 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

56 hp sounds like plenty to my admittedly inexperienced eyes. 

 

It is, but you have to make sure it's coupled with the correct gearbox and prop. My prop was overpitched but once I corrected that I realised 55hp was all I needed.

 

You must make sure there's adequate cooling too which means two big skin tanks if it's keel cooled.

[blackrose]

3 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

Where would you suggest looking for such a project? I've been on many used websites.

 

 

The usual places I guess, Apollo Duck, various brokerages which are all online these days.

 

Not being in the market myself I may be underestimating how difficult it is to find a good used widebeam, it's meant to be a buyer's market after all. But it's got to be worth a look. 

 

Whether you buy used or new build avoid some of the budget builders with extremely narrow gunwales. Some are downright dangerous. They've been designed for boats which just sit on their moorings, but even still it's ridiculous because at some point the boat will have to be moved. There's not necessarily anything wrong with budget boats per se, mine is a 2005 Liverpool Boat and I've been happy with it, but it has reasonable, usable width gunwales. It's an easy point to miss it you're not aware.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

Hi Blackrose, thanks for this comment. There doesn't appear to be a great deal of choice out there for a second hand/unfinished project for me to consider. I'm not rushing matters by any stretch, and I am open to looking at alternative options. Like most people, I would prefer something that is me, not someone else's design or furnishings. Where would you suggest looking for such a project? I've been on many used websites.

 

 

I think what people are trying to tell you nicely is that you don't necessarily know what does and doesn't work on a boat (what ideas are good and which ones don't really work...) until you've tried it, either by doing a lot of hires on different boats (and going "that would be much better if only...") or getting a boat and living on it -- or by talking to a lot of people who have done some or all this, of which there are many on this forum 😉

[Grass is Greener]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I think what people are trying to tell you nicely is that you don't necessarily know what does and doesn't work on a boat (what ideas are good and which ones don't really work...) until you've tried it, either by doing a lot of hires on different boats (and going "that would be much better if only...") or getting a boat and living on it -- or by talking to a lot of people who have done some or all this, of which there are many on this forum 😉

I agree, Ian, and this is the reason for my post. Experienced information is valuable. I'm not the type to just walk into a situation without firstly listening to people who have been, seen and done. I could spend the next ten years working things out from personal experiences, but this is the beauty of a forum. I can digest the information and use it to trim down those wasted ten years.  

[Tony1]

22 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I agree, Ian, and this is the reason for my post. Experienced information is valuable. I'm not the type to just walk into a situation without firstly listening to people who have been, seen and done. I could spend the next ten years working things out from personal experiences, but this is the beauty of a forum. I can digest the information and use it to trim down those wasted ten years.  

 

I would add that part of the point Ian was making (and myself further above) was you can't be sure about what features you like and dislike until you spend some time inside a boat living with them day to day. 

I can't stress enough how illuminating it is to actually spend several days living on a boat, and how it can alter your thoughts about what features you prefer/need. 

It might be that if you take a 60ft narrowboat for a two week hire, you could come back thinking that actually, you could maybe live in that space after all, even if reluctantly, and only for the sake of the increased cruising range you get.

There is even a possibility that you return thinking maybe canal life is not really for you. 

If your plan is to live solo on a 60ft narrowboat, for example, you could create a really long and open plan lounge space with plenty of large windows, and that might give you enough of a feeling of space that you can live with it- or maybe not.

You may come back even more certain that 10ft is the minimum width you need. 

I personally dont like the living space in a narrowboat, but there are so many extra narrow canals you can explore that it was a compromise I was prepared to make. 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Tony1

[IanD]

56 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I agree, Ian, and this is the reason for my post. Experienced information is valuable. I'm not the type to just walk into a situation without firstly listening to people who have been, seen and done. I could spend the next ten years working things out from personal experiences, but this is the beauty of a forum. I can digest the information and use it to trim down those wasted ten years.  

That's a sensible approach. The other crucial point is to decide where you really want to be able to go; if you want to be able to do the cross-Pennine routes the maximum length for a wideboat is 57' (60' with care for a narrowboat), if not you can go longer -- but anything wider than about 10' will be cumbersome if you do want to travel any distance (and of course, keeps you off the narrow canals). If you want to be able to travel on all the canals then a narrowboat is needed, a full-length one will go most places in the Midlands and South. Some people have bought shorter "go-anywhere" narrowboats and then never gone anywhere where length is a problem, they might as well have bought a longer one and had more space.

 

If you're happy to be limited to wide canals then a 57' x 10' widebeam gives a lot more space than a narrowboat -- wider still gives even more space, but is only a good idea of you're not going to move very much. A longer widebeam will be much more restrictive still, especially if extra-wide. A square stern not only looks ugly (if you care!) but can also cause problems in locks -- again, not good if you want to travel much.

 

If you want to be able to visit more of the network then a 72' narrowboat gives more space than a shorter one, but excludes you from some very nice canals in the North. To go almost anywhere a 60' narrowboat is the absolute limit (but you might get wet, many people choose 57' for this reason), but the 12' (or 15') shorter and narrow cabin means you have to be pretty careful about how you use the space.

 

I think you can see here that there's a continuous tradeoff between space and where you can take the boat, all the way from a 72' x 14' square-sterned widebeam (absolutely massive but will go hardly anywhere) to a 60' narrowboat (restricted space but goes anywhere), with a 57' x 10' widebeam or a 72' x 7' narrowboat somewhere in between but with different restrictions on where they will go. Which to choose is the biggest single decision you need to make... 😉

 

[After many years of narrowboat hires I hired a 57' x 10' widebeam for a week and hated it -- the space and comfort was lovely but navigating was not, great when stationary but not so great when on the move. Other people may have different opinions -- and of course it depends how much time you plan to spend stationary vs. moving...]

 

Then you get down to the nitty-gritty decisions about what you want (engine, heating, toilet, appliances, beds, furnishings...) and how to fit it all in, and there are many different options and opinions about all this -- again, the key is figuring out what will work best for you, which might be different to other people with different priorities.

Edited April 2, 2022 by IanD

[blackrose]

My boat is 57 x 12ft with a tapered square stern. I've never had a problem taking it anywhere apart from once having to get it craned out and transported from the west side of the southern network to the east side. I've not cruised as much as some narrowboat owners of course, but I've done a lot more than most others that I know. 

 

I've never been on the northern waterways so I'll have to acknowledge the comments from others about the issues that a square stern can cause. I do agree that a square stern doesn't look as nice as a more rounded stern, but plenty of other types of boats have square sterns and nobody thinks about calling them ugly, so like many other boating issues I tend to look at it from a wider boating context, rather than the narrow canal mindset.

 

The square stern happens to make it easier to tow my dinghy sideways while not adding too much to the overall length, so there are some benefits.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by blackrose

[nb Innisfree]

6 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It is the little things, like screws, glue, paint, electrical connectors, that break the budget, not the big ticket items like stoves, inverters, solar panels and so on. Also new tools that you've not needed to have before.

 

Left handed draught calculator. 

[Tony1]

21 minutes ago, blackrose said:

My boat is 57 x 12ft with a tapered square stern. I've never had a problem taking it anywhere apart from once having to get it craned out and transported from the west side of the southern network to the east side. I've not cruised as much as some narrowboat owners of course, but I've done a lot more than most others that I know. 

 

I've never been on the northern waterways so I'll have to acknowledge the comments from others about the issues that a square stern can cause. I do agree that a square stern doesn't look as nice as a more rounded stern, but plenty of other types of boats have square sterns and nobody thinks about calling them ugly, so like many other boating issues I tend to look at it from a wider boating context, rather than the narrow canal mindset.

 

The square stern happens to make it easier to tow my dinghy sideways while not adding too much to the overall length, so there are some benefits.

 

 

I'd love a square stern tbh. 

It would be such a neat space to fit a full size ebike. 

 

And I actually think the squared end looks pretty good.

 

I'm such a philistine. I should be banned. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Tony1

[Tracy D'arth]

12 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'd love a square stern tbh. 

It would be such a neat space to fit a full size ebike. 

 

And I actually think the squared end looks pretty good.

 

I'm such a philistine. I should be banned. 

 

 

 

The rounded shape of a proper boat enables it to move away from the side without scouring the corner away on the bank. It also is less prone to hanging up on cills. 

Square sterns are plum ugly. They also reverse like a cow with a broken leg.

12 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

[hughc]

Google 'Tranquil Rose' which is a beautiful curvaceous wide beam that looks and handles as a boat should. I imagine that on wide waterways it won't be in any ones way.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

You could even  restrict your cruising to the wide waterways at first to see if that is something you can live with, while still having the option to go further afield if northern waters end up feeling constraining.

 

^^^This^^^

 

You'll also get e feel for what a pain in the arse widebeams can be, especially if you then decide to cruise a narrow waterway. The absence of widebeams (along with the easy and fast Toytown locks) is one of the greatest pleasures of cruising narrow canals like the Oxford and the Coventry. 

 

 

[blackrose]

27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The rounded shape of a proper boat enables it to move away from the side without scouring the corner away on the bank. It also is less prone to hanging up on cills. 

Square sterns are plum ugly. They also reverse like a cow with a broken leg.

 

 

Aesthetics are of course subjective so your view is no more valid than Tony's who happens to like them, but on the practical aspects of square sterns, I've never had a problem moving away from the bank without hitting it; never got hung up on a cill and my boat reverses very nicely - better in fact than many round stern narrow boats I've steered.

 

You do realise the underwater swims on a square stern are just like any other boat? So what would make it not reverse well? The few inches of square stern below the waterline? It doesn't affect mine. 

 

Proper boats come in all shapes & sizes and proper boaters don't need to be told that. 😎

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The rounded shape of a proper boat enables it to move away from the side without scouring the corner away on the bank. It also is less prone to hanging up on cills. 

Square sterns are plum ugly. They also reverse like a cow with a broken leg.

 

 

All the hire boats I have had that also had square sterns (grp) reversed just fine. Yes they are not steel but that is not particularly relevant.

 

I just use the same technique that I did with our narrowboat. Forward to set direction and reverse.

 

As for getting away from the bank, with a widebeam surely one just uses the push stern out technique as you step on the counter and then reverse to clear much like one would do with a narrow beam?

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[Tony1]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The rounded shape of a proper boat enables it to move away from the side without scouring the corner away on the bank.

 

 

Luckily for me, I'm definitely not a proper boater. 

And since I'm not a believer in either Proper Boating or True Boating, I wont have to cast out mine eyes because they have offended me, by finding a square stern rather nice to look at. 

But I'm not a complete philistine-  I even like Lister engines. 

But only when they are on other people's boats. 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Tony1

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

But I'm not a complete philistine-  I even like Lister engines. 

 

Hold on there, most Listers are HORRID!

 

A JP2 or JP3 is utterly divine, but most of the others, well honestly, do you really like dumper truck engines?

 

The HAs and HRs are sort of ok I suppose.... 

 

[Tony1]

30 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Hold on there, most Listers are HORRID!

 

A JP2 or JP3 is utterly divine, but most of the others, well honestly, do you really like dumper truck engines?

 

 

 

 

Of course I dont Mike, they are all beastly. I only said that so that the enraged villagers will not chase me with pitchforks. 

 

I hired a boat with a Lister once, and I was left the impression of s small team of men under the engine cover, beating on a metal plate with hammers several times every second.

My pressing the throttle made the hammering speed up, but it was never a pleasant sound.

 

The engines on the local fuel boats Bargus and Halsall are a different thing altogether. That is a much more gentle sound, deeper and less harsh, and I could listen to that all afternoon. 

Does that mean I'm a proper boater?

Have the cult of proper boating finally got to me? 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Tony1

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Does that mean I'm a proper boater?

Have the cult of proper boating finally got to me? 

 

 

Thank gawd for that, a newbie who starts developing some basic sensibilities. I yam so GRATELY encouraged, thank you SO MUCH! 

 

Next, you'll be commenting that the solar panel on my historic looks sh!t....  

 

But honestly does it matter? Some people get so picky about this sort of stuffff