Size matters

[Grass is Greener]

Hello folks!

My first post, so here goes...

 

I'm on the cusp of ordering a new build which I will live aboard. I have time to wait, research more, plan the fit out better etc etc. 

After reading until my eyes dry out, I'm reconsidering my first option, a Euro 60 x 12.6 sailaway.  

Many factors are jumping in and out at the moment and I'm sure the Okie-Cokie will continue for some time yet!

 

Factors in my head at the moment:

• Built quality of the hull - I'm steering away from the Liverpool yard after seeing the mixed, but more negative reviews about them.
• Navigating further than the Bridgewater which is my local water - Restrictions, mainly because of the width.
• Mooring costs, or where to safely moor online whilst fitting out, and thereafter.
• There appears to be a great deal of negativity towards widebeams from the majority of the community.

 

I'm now leaning more to a 57 x 10 or a 60 x 10, there isn't a great deal of difference in the price. I have rented a narrowboat on a couple of occasions, but they are just a wee bit claustrophobic for me. 

I have an initial budget of around £75k for the purchase and 1st fixes which I can do. By the time the boat is built, I will have extra cash to fit it out as I like.

 

I'm just throwing this out to get a little feedback and advise on the above. I am trying to be realistic for the journey ahead, but experience is priceless - TIA  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Grass is Greener

[Tracy D'arth]

Welcome.

 

10ft beam much more sensible. Its just that most canals are not made for wider boats, they become a trial to move and a pain in the backside to other canal users.

[Grass is Greener]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Welcome.

 

10ft beam much more sensible. Its just that most canals are not made for wider boats, they become a trial to move and a pain in the backside to other canal users.

Thanks, Tracy. I still need to check how far I can go from the Bridgewater.

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

57' gives you a few more options on waterways to visit over 60' length in a broad beam. Over the Rochdale canal, you can carry on down the Calder and Hebble, which wouldn't be possible in a 60' fat boot. This then gives you a loop using the Leeds and Liverpool, rather than out and back.

[Tony Brooks]

57ft length then all the wide beam northern waterways, 60ft possibly not as its a wide beam. Check the requirements for a mooring re the Bridgewater. I don't think they offer a CC license so no fitting out on the bank.

 

Be aware that fitting out takes far, far longer than you initially estimate and costs far, far more for most people.

[Grass is Greener]

8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

57' gives you a few more options on waterways to visit over 60' length in a broad beam. Over the Rochdale canal, you can carry on down the Calder and Hebble, which wouldn't be possible in a 60' fat boot. This then gives you a loop using the Leeds and Liverpool, rather than out and back.

That's good to know, thanks!

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

57ft length then all the wide beam northern waterways, 60ft possibly not as its a wide beam. Check the requirements for a mooring re the Bridgewater. I don't think they offer a CC license so no fitting out on the bank.

 

Be aware that fitting out takes far, far longer than you initially estimate and costs far, far more for most people.

Thanks, Tony, I'll take a look at that this afternoon. Yes, budgets are always broken no matter how well it is planned for  

[Jen-in-Wellies]

15 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

Thanks, Tony, I'll take a look at that this afternoon. Yes, budgets are always broken no matter how well it is planned for  

It is the little things, like screws, glue, paint, electrical connectors, that break the budget, not the big ticket items like stoves, inverters, solar panels and so on. Also new tools that you've not needed to have before.

 

[PeterF]

29 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

57' gives you a few more options on waterways to visit over 60' length in a broad beam. Over the Rochdale canal, you can carry on down the Calder and Hebble, which wouldn't be possible in a 60' fat boot. This then gives you a loop using the Leeds and Liverpool, rather than out and back.

 

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

57ft length then all the wide beam northern waterways, 60ft possibly not as its a wide beam.

 

If by Eurocruiser the OP means one of the designs with the square stern then that will have an impact on the maximum length on the shorter northern locks as they are based on curved sterns, the cills on the Calder & Hebble are curved so going down forwards the boat will not be able to use the full length and going up forwards the gates might not be able to close due to the corners not being rounded off.

[Slow and Steady]

At least there is more room to work and store materials in a widebeam so you're not so dependant on the bank or a jetty.

But, living aboard a couple of people here have done it, leisurely (mostly) full time and it took them 3-4 years and one still isn't really finished. In all honesty I think one would be better off getting a job and saving for those years then paying someone else!

[LadyG]

Standard advice is to buy a decent second hand boat, see how you get on.

Even if I had three years every weekend, cash £30k, plus skills plus tools, by the time I`d been on my workspace for three years, I'd be pretty fed up, the novelty wears off. 

If you want to build a boat, buy a good shell, have the shell grit blasted, two packed, delivered to your back garden. 

If you want to try boating buy a good boat, maybe 50-52ft, go boating. 

Square sterns are just horrid, if you want a boat, buy a boat if you want a floating caravan, we'll, keep it in a marina (joking, almost) 

Edited April 2, 2022 by LadyG

[David Mack]

49 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

Mooring costs, or where to safely moor online whilst fitting out, and thereafter.

Fitting out without access to mains electricity will be a real pain. You won't find many (any?) towpath moorings with electricity, so that will mean taking a mooring in a marina, boatyard or an offside online mooring. That will probably cost £2-3k per year.

Be aware that many marinas don't allow significant work to be carried out to boats on the mooring, for reasons of noise and disturbance to adjacent moorers and to protect the income of their onsite workshops. 

And marinas may also impose restrictions or make charges if you want to bring a contractor onto site. And they may not accept delivery of goods sent to the marina, neither will you be allowed to store goods, materials or rubbish on the mooring jetty or on marina land.

There is no continuous cruising on the Bridgewater Canal - you need a permanent mooring to get a long term licence, and short term visits by CRT licence holders are limited in duration and return period.

 

[Grass is Greener]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

 

 

If by Eurocruiser the OP means one of the designs with the square stern then that will have an impact on the maximum length on the shorter northern locks as they are based on curved sterns, the cills on the Calder & Hebble are curved so going down forwards the boat will not be able to use the full length and going up forwards the gates might not be able to close due to the corners not being rounded off.

Now that's very interesting, Peter. As much as I'd like the the square back for my meat smoker, I'd much prefer to fit through the locks!! Thanks for the heads up on that one

[Grass is Greener]

1 hour ago, Slow and Steady said:

At least there is more room to work and store materials in a widebeam so you're not so dependant on the bank or a jetty.

But, living aboard a couple of people here have done it, leisurely (mostly) full time and it took them 3-4 years and one still isn't really finished. In all honesty I think one would be better off getting a job and saving for those years then paying someone else!

I'm fortunate to be flexible in the trade I'm in. I have the tools and a very skilled guy who works for me, so I would expect to trim it down somewhat from 3 years. The cost of materials is just bonkers and no decrease in costs is ever on the horizon. Thanks for your feedback, Slow and Steady.

[Slow and Steady]

Hmm, well so was one of the 3 year guys, it's easy to underestimate the complexity of fitting out a boat because a good one looks so simple on the surface - miles of DC wiring for starters. Like most things, time spent producing detailed plans will be time well spent. Best of luck to you.

[Grass is Greener]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Standard advice is to buy a decent second hand boat, see how you get on.

Even if I had three years every weekend, cash £30k, plus skills plus tools, by the time I`d been on my workspace for three years, I'd be pretty fed up, the novelty wears off. 

If you want to build a boat, buy a good shell, have the shell grit blasted, two packed, delivered to your back garden. 

If you want to try boating buy a good boat, maybe 50-52ft, go boating. 

Square sterns are just horrid, if you want a boat, buy a boat if you want a floating caravan, we'll, keep it in a marina (joking, almost) 

lol - Thanks for the candid and mostly funny comment, LadyG. Some very fair points though.

I have taken onboard the very logical comment from PeterF regarding the Euro, but why the distain for the the square stern, what have they ever done to you? grin

 

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Fitting out without access to mains electricity will be a real pain. You won't find many (any?) towpath moorings with electricity, so that will mean taking a mooring in a marina, boatyard or an offside online mooring. That will probably cost £2-3k per year.

Be aware that many marinas don't allow significant work to be carried out to boats on the mooring, for reasons of noise and disturbance to adjacent moorers and to protect the income of their onsite workshops. 

And marinas may also impose restrictions or make charges if you want to bring a contractor onto site. And they may not accept delivery of goods sent to the marina, neither will you be allowed to store goods, materials or rubbish on the mooring jetty or on marina land.

There is no continuous cruising on the Bridgewater Canal - you need a permanent mooring to get a long term licence, and short term visits by CRT licence holders are limited in duration and return period.

 

Thanks, David, serious food for thought. I will look in to this. I have spoken with Lymm, but they don't have space, but my next call is a bit further along the canal at No3.

[Grass is Greener]

6 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

Hmm, well so was one of the 3 year guys, it's easy to underestimate the complexity of fitting out a boat because a good one looks so simple on the surface - miles of DC wiring for starters. Like most things, time spent producing detailed plans will be time well spent. Best of luck to you.

Yes indeed, it's all down to the detail and realism of the planning + material hike costs. Thanks for the advise

 

[Tony1]

 

If I were ordering a brand new liveaboard boat, a few of my wants (off the top of my head) would be:

 

- At least 1000 watts of solar panels

- At least 600Ah of lithium batteries 

- An alternator capable of putting out at least 100amps continuously

- As big a water tank as possible

- A pump out toilet, or if you go cassette, space for two or three spare cassettes

- A bathroom that is big enough to also house a small cassette toilet as emergency/backup

- A SF or diesel stove, plus a separate diesel CH system

- half a dozen bilge inspection hatches, to save taking up the flooring when you want to check the bilge

- twice as much storage space as I think I'll need

- An inverter that doesnt use much current when its quiescent, but is still powerful enough to run power tools, washing machine if you get one, etc.

- dimmable lights, so you can soften the lighting later in the evening

- soundproofing underneath the engine boards if not provided as standard (before I soundproofed mine the engine noise was very unpleasant) 

- gas locker big enough to hold two 15kg bottles - my bow locker only holds a single bottle

- anti-slip paint or other material on the gunwale tops, and along the sides of the roof where you will walk (alongside the panels)

 

You probably have already, but if not, definitely hire a boat for a week or two. it will give you lots of ideas for what features you like and don't like. 

There were numerous issues I expected to be problematic but were not, and numerous other things that cropped up that I wasn't expecting. 

 

 

[jpcdriver]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

If I were ordering a brand new liveaboard boat, a few of my wants (off the top of my head) would be:

 

Wot, no engine or motor? I thought you were a continuous cruiser not a CMer!? 😀

[Bod]

31 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I'm fortunate to be flexible in the trade I'm in. I have the tools and a very skilled guy who works for me, so I would expect to trim it down somewhat from 3 years. The cost of materials is just bonkers and no decrease in costs is ever on the horizon. Thanks for your feedback, Slow and Steady.

Be aware of the RCR requirements for the build quality.  Recreational Craft Requirments, this is a set of legal requirements for the building and fitting out of inland waterways craft.

Domestic electrician, domestic gas fitters are generally not aware of boat requirements, indeed almost all Gas Safe fitters are not qualified to work on LPG in boats.

As the requirements are now so steep, and if you may want to sell the boat at a later date, having the boat built and fitted out by the same company, may well work out cheaper, than trying to D.I.Y (even having your "man" doing the work)

I believe the responsibility of meeting these requirements lies with the builder/fitter outer, for the life of the boat, no matter who owns the boat at the time of the fault being found.

There is a very great deal of information on this if you search "RCR" in the search box.  (not to be confused by River Canal Rescue, who are the waterways equivalent to the AA)

 

Bod.

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Standard advice is to buy a decent second hand boat, see how you get on.

This!!

You are about to spend a huge amount of money and time on a boat, with little experience to tell you what works and what doesn't. When finished, a nearly new boat with an owner fitout will not be worth the money you have spent, let alone the time you have put in. Whereas a 5-10 year old boat in reasonable condition will cost less in the first place and will more or less hold its value.

And since you are worried about cruising range, buy a narrow boat first, and see if you can live with the limited room. You could even  restrict your cruising to the wide waterways at first to see if that is something you can live with, while still having the option to go further afield if northern waters end up feeling constraining.

And if 2 or 3 years down the line you still want to fitout a widebeam, you can do so with much more confidence of a successful outcome. 

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I'm fortunate to be flexible in the trade I'm in. I have the tools and a very skilled guy who works for me, so I would expect to trim it down somewhat from 3 years. The cost of materials is just bonkers and no decrease in costs is ever on the horizon. Thanks for your feedback, Slow and Steady.

 

It depends upon what trade you and your guy is familiar with.  If it is the furniture or building carpentry then the fact boats do not normally sit dead level and move about as you move about inside them means things like squares and levels are not much use if you want the finished article to look right. There also tends ot eb a lot of template work to ensure the parts fit the very off profiles.

[Grass is Greener]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

If I were ordering a brand new liveaboard boat, a few of my wants (off the top of my head) would be:

 

- At least 1000 watts of solar panels

- At least 600Ah of lithium batteries 

- An alternator capable of putting out at least 100amps continuously

- As big a water tank as possible

- A pump out toilet, or if you go cassette, space for two or three spare cassettes

- A bathroom that is big enough to also house a small cassette toilet as emergency/backup

- A SF or diesel stove, plus a separate diesel CH system

- half a dozen bilge inspection hatches, to save taking up the flooring when you want to check the bilge

- twice as much storage space as I think I'll need

- An inverter that doesnt use much current when its quiescent, but is still powerful enough to run power tools, washing machine if you get one, etc.

- dimmable lights, so you can soften the lighting later in the evening

- soundproofing underneath the engine boards if not provided as standard (before I soundproofed mine the engine noise was very unpleasant) 

- gas locker big enough to hold two 15kg bottles - my bow locker only holds a single bottle

- anti-slip paint or other material on the gunwale tops, and along the sides of the roof where you will walk (alongside the panels)

 

You probably have already, but if not, definitely hire a boat for a week or two. it will give you lots of ideas for what features you like and don't like. 

There were numerous issues I expected to be problematic but were not, and numerous other things that cropped up that I wasn't expecting. 

 

 

Thanks for spending the time to write your comment, Tony, it's really informative and appreciated. Only by knowing what is preferred is based upon experience, so this information is valuable to me and I will research it thoroughly.

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, jpcdriver said:

Wot, no engine or motor? I thought you were a continuous cruiser not a CMer!? 😀

 

I'm working on a new Hot Air drive system, which I hope will supersede the internal combustion engine.

At the moment it requires one hour's of hot air from a dozen people to move the boat one yard, so there is still work to do.   

 

[Grass is Greener]

6 minutes ago, jpcdriver said:

Wot, no engine or motor? I thought you were a continuous cruiser not a CMer!? 😀

I'm sure I will upgrade from the 56bhp that appears to be the usual offering to a 75bhp

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'm working on a new Hot Air drive system, which I hope will supersede the internal combustion engine.

At the moment it requires one hour's of hot air from a dozen people to move the boat one yard, so there is still work to do.   

 

grin

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Grass is Greener said:

I'm sure I will upgrade from the 56bhp that appears to be the usual offering to a 75bhp

 

Why, are you planning towing lighters?