Fire extinguishers...

[Janz]

😬

Just been perusing the BSS checklist & procedures right up to the appendices & what they check for & I must admit that I'm pretty terrified if not totally resigned to failure. If an examiner actually goes through every item on that checklist, they are going to need at least a couple of hours for a start. Aside from the petrol/LPG stuff, everything else on that list will be applicable to my boat. I estimate there will be zero chance my boat would pass the BSS & every boat I've seen near my mooring wouldn't pass either. I have no idea how my boat has a BSSC currently. Three months of Sundays & I still wouldn't have half of that stuff done. How easily bribeable are these people? The Bulgarian dude in front of me is even worse that me in terms of floating building sites & my little neighb would be right up against it 'cos she's a hoarder & yer man wouldn't be able to see anything. The only one on my plot that'd stand a snowball in hell's chance of passing would be wide beam girl, 'cos she's fairly posh & her boat is modern, clean & has all mod cons & even she would struggle if the go by the book. Right now I'm dead in the water on fuel, electrical & engine alone... I think the correct internet terms in this case are 'WTF, OMG & FFS.'

[Tony Brooks]

Make sure you understand which items are mandatory and which are advisory. Also make sure that you are not confusing the hire boat BSS with the less onerous private boat one. The examiners should not fail you on an advisory item but should advise that it is not best practice. There always used to be a solid wiring exemption for boats built before a certain date but don't know if it is still in force.

[Janz]

21 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

That will really confuse people! A boat is not a motorbike. You need to show the lights people on the waterways expect. For general canal use, you just need a white light facing forward to help you work out where the tunnel walls are. There are some waterways where you are mixing it with commercial boats and have requirements for proper navigation lights which meet, as far as is possible the collision regulations.

Night boating is fun, but less is more. Lots of lights just wrecks your night vision. Pick a night with moonlight and you just need a standard tunnel light to show others where you are. Also, too much light blinds any one else boating in your vicinity and won't make you popular. Massive LED tunnel lights do not help you make friends with other boaters, for example.

Jen

Aye. Can't argue with that. In my defence, I do already have a motorcycle type headlamp. The only difference is there is no high beam on it. It's fitted with a standard auto bulb but the glass is broken because the dunce that fitted it stuck it right in the path of where my top door opens. This has also put a crack in the door glass 🙄 The ones I'm going to replace it with are from small bikes so they should be alright as they use standard bulbs as well, not halogen & they're pretty tame for 12v lights. Thanks btw 👍

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Janz said:

If an examiner actually goes through every item on that checklist, they are going to need at least a couple of hours for a start.

 

I always do my 'pre-survey' BSS checks and work down the list. Even knowing where everything is located and what goes where it still takes me over 2 hours*. It would not be unusal for the examiner to take 3 hours to do a 'proper' BSS examination. After all, you are paying him £150 for it.

 

* Don't forget to check that the gas hose and fuel hoses are 'in date' and when 'bent' do not show any signs of cracks or brittleness. This is one area many folks forget to check before the examiner arrives and then gives you a fail.

 

I guess it depends if you are having a BSS simply because you need a 'bit of paper' to get a licence, or, you want a BSS so you know your boat is 'safe' and complies with the law.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Make sure you understand which items are mandatory and which are advisory. Also make sure that you are not confusing the hire boat BSS with the less onerous private boat one. The examiners should not fail you on an advisory item but should advise that it is not best practice. There always used to be a solid wiring exemption for boats built before a certain date but don't know if it is still in force.

I'm reading through the private one, Tony, & it's scary stuff. I think the engine bay would be the best place to start because I can make that look real pretty by cable tying the messy wiring & a clean & paint but in a way it's easier I feel if I take away lots of stuff in the cabin & leave it bare for the test, blank off all ports - gas, water etc, get the appropriate signage for the extinguishers & exits & that way they can see everything. Hopefully they'll extend me some leniency. I know I'll have to go back to them once I get the appliances in but if there's no stove, fridge of oven installed at the time of test & it does by some devine intervention & hard graft, pass, I'll be happy with that..!

[Tony Brooks]

Well, I don't see what is so difficult with the private BSS. It is all best practice so a good guide to how you should carry out any work. Why not list, with photos if necessary, what you think will fail so we can advise. A clean, painted engine room is not a BSS item.  For instance I suspect a couple of hours with zip ties and insulating tape would tidy up the wirirng no end.

[Janz]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I always do my 'pre-survey' BSS checks and work down the list. Even knowing where everything is located and what goes where it still takes me over 2 hours*. It would not be unusal for the examiner to take 3 hours to do a 'proper' BSS examination. After all, you are paying him £150 for it.

 

* Don't forget to check that the gas hose and fuel hoses are 'in date' and when 'bent' do not show any signs of cracks or brittleness. This is one area many folks forget to check before the examiner arrives and then gives you a fail.

 

I guess it depends if you are having a BSS simply because you need a 'bit of paper' to get a licence, or, you want a BSS so you know your boat is 'safe' and complies with the law.

Right now it's just to get the 'bit of paper', Alan. But I'll have to bite the bullet on compliance at a later date. I'll know more in the coming weeks as things progress. But June is BSS month. It's a pain as it coincides with summer & I'll want to be touring but I want it legal first & foremost. I shall renew most of the hoses except the gas which will be blanked off & the gas canister removed. I'm taking this seriously now I've seen what's involved. It's not out of reach but it will be a lot of work.

[LadyG]

Why don't you find narrowboat fitting tradesmen to help you out rather than spending your time removing stuff, and doing things which are not related to the BSC. You need to end up with a decent, dare I say, conventional boat with sound electrics, flooring, standard boat cooking, and heating and internal lighting, a decent solar system and good batteries.

If you read the battery primer you will understand that it is only to easy too kill your batteries, they need to be the right type, and kept in good condition throughout their life. Most people use deep cycle flooded lead acid batteries for their domestic battery bank, they need to be maintained. 

Just find a Gas Safe fitter who has LPG and boat endorsement and get him to fit the gas cooker, he won't fit it if it is non compliant. As you have been advised previously, when you have your BSC certificate you can invalidate it if you then start to install stuff in an unapproved manner, and I think if you go on to fit a gas cooker and stove, you will need a retest, others will advise. 

If you invalidate your BSC, this will probably invalidate your boat insurance and your licence. Just do the job properly, I can't see it taking three months, the only problem. Is waiting a few weeks for a good electrician, a qualified gas fitter, and your stove fitter. You probably don't have the tools to fit the stove, but you can resource the materials, check out the forum search facility for stove fitting. 

The gas fitter will probably bring his own materials. 

The electrician ditto. 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Janz said:

Right now it's just to get the 'bit of paper', Alan. But I'll have to bite the bullet on compliance at a later date. I'll know more in the coming weeks as things progress. But June is BSS month. It's a pain as it coincides with summer & I'll want to be touring but I want it legal first & foremost. I shall renew most of the hoses except the gas which will be blanked off & the gas canister removed. I'm taking this seriously now I've seen what's involved. It's not out of reach but it will be a lot of work.

 

If your BSS is June, make sure you are working to the NEW BSS which comes into force from April this year.

There are some new, and more involved things to consider, compared to the previous (current) version.

The BSS can be done 'several weeks' before it is due, so that if (when) it fails you have time to make good any failures and still have it renewed / retested before the old certificate expires.

Check on the BSS website for how 'early' you can have the test done.

 

The gas pipe needs to be properly 'capped off' not just folded back on itself and hammered flat.

[Janz]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Why don't you find a boat fitting tradesman to help you out rather than spending your time removing stuff, and doing things which are not related to the BSC. You need to end up with a decent, dare I say, conventional boat with sound electrics, flooring, standard boat cooking, and heating devices, a decent solar system and good batteries.

If you read the battery primer you will understand that it is only to easy too kill your batteries, they need to be the right type, and kept in good condition throughout their life. Most people use deep cycle flooded lead acid batteries for their domestic battery bank, they need to be maintained. 

 

Well because tradesmen of any description cost big bucks, m'Lady... the old Universal Credit doesn't extend to that. I'm not qualified in any trade but I'm relatively skilled, cheap & I have the time & tools to do everything. I'm a biker & ex London courier & we normally do our own servicing & customising. There will be some bikers on here that will say different but they are either lazy, unskilled & unequipped. Plus I want to learn this craft & the only way you learn is by doing. My boat will be 'conventional', but it's going to look like Jimi Hendrix's shag pad by the time I finish with it. I'm heading down there soon to meet my bro & his GF so I'll take a few pics & you'll see that it's got... potential..! Looool

[Janz]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If your BSS is June, make sure you are working to the NEW BSS which comes into force from April this year.

There are some new, and more involved things to consider, compared to the previous (current) version.

The BSS can be done 'several weeks' before it is due, so that if (when) it fails you have time to make good any failures and still have it renewed / retested before the old certificate expires.

Check on the BSS website for how 'early' you can have the test done.

 

The gas pipe needs to be properly 'capped off' not just folded back on itself and hammered flat.

Eeeeeek..! Typical... more rules & regs hoops for your humble servant to jump through. The first thing I'm gonna install will be a bash plate for my head on the toilet door 🤬 loool

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, Janz said:

Well because tradesmen of any description cost big bucks, m'Lady... the old Universal Credit doesn't extend to that. I'm not qualified in any trade but I'm relatively skilled, cheap & I have the time & tools to do everything. I'm a biker & ex London courier & we normally do our own servicing & customising. There will be some bikers on here that will say different but they are either lazy, unskilled & unequipped. Plus I want to learn this craft & the only way you learn is by doing. My boat will be 'conventional', but it's going to look like Jimi Hendrix's shag pad by the time I finish with it. I'm heading down there soon to meet my bro & his GF so I'll take a few pics & you'll see that it's got... potential..! Looool

You cannot fit out a boat on UC, best get a job in a boatyard! 

Edited February 27, 2022 by LadyG

[Tacet]

On 25/02/2022 at 10:45, Stroudwater1 said:

Just a small point, and not trying to be picky, apologies and welcome, but generally you steer or navigate and then moor a boat up, drive and parking is a pastime for other vehicles.

Even more picky, boats are tied-up or moored, but not moored up. 

 

A good while back I was told one tied-up on a canal and moored on a river - but looking at older books, it is a broad approximation but not a universal rule.  Maybe it is a combination of the type of vessel and where it is happening?  Seems doubtful the captain of the Cutty Sark told the crew to prepare to tie-up.

 

[haggis]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You cannot fit out a boat on UC,the mater ia

Not a very positive or helpful post. It looks to me like the guy is willing to learn and is asking questions and listening to the answers and I love his enthusiasm. 

[Stroudwater1]

36 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Even more picky, boats are tied-up or moored, but not moored up. 

 

A good while back I was told one tied-up on a canal and moored on a river - but looking at older books, it is a broad approximation but not a universal rule.  Maybe it is a combination of the type of vessel and where it is happening?  Seems doubtful the captain of the Cutty Sark told the crew to prepare to tie-up.

 

That’s interesting, I hadn’t realised  there was a difference.  I’ve always thought of moor and moor up as being two acts, moor is when the boat is there and settled and the crew are relaxing but moor up is the act of mooring/ tying up. Not sure that wiki helps 🤣 thanks for mentioning it. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/moor_up#:~:text=(transitive%2C nautical) To fix,was moored up in harbour.

[Alan de Enfield]

I have a mooring, when attached to it am I 'moored up' or 'tied up' or 'moored' to my mooring ?

Edited February 27, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Janz said:

Right now it's just to get the 'bit of paper', Alan. But I'll have to bite the bullet on compliance at a later date. I'll know more in the coming weeks as things progress. But June is BSS month. It's a pain as it coincides with summer & I'll want to be touring but I want it legal first & foremost. I shall renew most of the hoses except the gas which will be blanked off & the gas canister removed. I'm taking this seriously now I've seen what's involved. It's not out of reach but it will be a lot of work.

Which hoses? 

I don't recall the examiner looking at the engine hoses, he may have done, (but is that related to the BSC?) just the gas hoses, ie those flexible hoses from controller to gas pipes, and they are assessed on condition as far as I am aware. Really no point in replacing either type of hoses for the BSC if they look OK I would have thought. They do (now) have a date of manufacture on them, I think, but there is no use by date. 

My boat had an armoured gas hose at the cooker, which was replaced by my Gas Safe LPG  Boat BSC Examiner as part of his checks, and pre Certificate work. It was a fail because it was not fitted according to manuf instructions (had passed four, non Gas Safe Examiners), but most critically IMHO, because the actual hose cannot be examined because it is armoured. It was  20 years old. 

The reason my boat did not comply on Gas was this armoured hose cooker connector and the piping from the cylinders not being fully supported, no point in removing the cooker, just fix the problem, an hour's work. 

Materials £15.00, of course you need to have the correct specified gas pipe, the plastic supports are from B&Q, £0.50.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I don't recall the examiner looking at the engine hoses,

 

Maybe you need another examiner :

 

Fuel feed, return and on‐engine hoses must be marked, to denote both suitability for the fuel used and fire resistance, to BS EN ISO 7840 or an equivalentstandard.

 

All fuel feed, return and on‐engine hoses must be free of signs of leaks, flaws, brittleness, cracking, abrasion, kinking and ‘soft spots’. On hoses covered with metal braiding the braiding must be free of signs of damage or deterioration including corrosion and kinking. Fuel feed, return and on‐engine hoses must be supported clear of anything likely to damage them, or be otherwise protected.

 

 

[Quattrodave]

43 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You cannot fit out a boat on UC, best get a job in a boatyard! 

 

I must admit I do agree... Everything in the marine world is much more expensive.  I'm approaching the end of a refit, I've spent a small fortune!  Things that I didn't take into account, marine plywood, well over £100 a sheet now, yes you can use exterior but that's another argument.  12v & 240v (including battery) cabling with the correct ratings, expensive.  Decent quality fuses, fuseboxes & connectors expensive.  Decent isolator switches with a proper rating, difficult to find and expensive iirc mine were £75 each.... Decent stainless screws, stainless fittings expensive.  thats long before you get to the finer points, batteries, chargers, battery protects, cooker, fridge etc, marine paint etc... I did nearly all the work my self and I was savvy with prices, I shopped around & opened trade accounts where I could.... oh and a small fortune on specialist tools to do specific jobs.... I'm very lucky I have good friends in various trades, I have access to multiple workshops, I'm a good welder, I have a lathe, flypress and a press brake.

 

Lastly, if you do a good job your boat will be worth more, if you do a bad job it'll be worth less... oh and please, its not a motorbike it's a boat, please stop drawing comparisons.  Example; wiring, even for a simple light your runs will be much much longer therefore you'll need much thicker cables so you dont get voltage drop, do your calculations!!

 

Dont get me wrong, not trying to put you off, I want you to be successful, just my experience, it's a steap learing curve, I have the T shirt as they say.

[LadyG]

Your cable run is twice the distance from A to B of course DAMHIK. 

The OP was helped by his motorbike pals, with hundreds of hours of experience collectively, the boating world is not like that, his neighbouring boaters will likely only have a vague idea of how it all works AND if it complies. 

PS not that I want to know about you own circumstances, but if on UC, you are already dealing with officialdom. They may provide payments to folks living in, or renting property, but probably not to pay extra costs for you to live on your boat, however logical or illogical that may seem. You can ask, of course. 

PS Nigel Calder has written manuals on boat electrics and fitting out, you could ask for it at the local library, not light reading! 

Edited February 27, 2022 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, LadyG said:

but if on UC, you are already dealing with officialdom. They may provide payments to folks living in, or renting property, but probably not to pay extra costs for you to live on your boat, however logical or illogical that may seem

 

Certainly the local authorities (some / all ?) do pay out for boating costs, I helped a couple of boaters with their application forms and they managed to get the following paid :

 

Boat licence

Boat Mooring

Boat insurance

 

But not the BSS.

 

The argument was that if you had a house, you wouldn't have to have your house inspected, but the other items could be, 'loosely', linked to equivalent costs of running a house.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Your cable run is twice the distance from A to B of course DAMHIK. 

The OP was helped by his motorbike pals, with hundreds of hours of experience collectively, the boating world is not like that, his neighbouring boaters will likely only have a vague idea of how it all works AND if it complies. 

PS not that I want to know about you own circumstances, but if on UC, you are already dealing with officialdom. They may provide payments to folks living in, or renting property, but probably not to pay extra costs for you to live on your boat, however logical or illogical that may seem. You can ask, of course. 

PS Nigel Calder has written manuals on boat electrics and fitting out, you could ask for it at the local library, not light reading! 

 

or download my electrical course notes for free, not done any fitting out ones though, but there are the mechanical ones and more detailed fuel injection pages. http://www.Tb-training.co.uk

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, haggis said:

Not a very positive or helpful post. It looks to me like the guy is willing to learn and is asking questions and listening to the answers and I love his enthusiasm. 

I suggested he get a job in order to fund his boat. There is not enough UC money to left over to buy anything, so fitting out a boat, even if he was knowledgable, which he isnt, is impossible. I stand by that. I have a boat.

My boat licence and insurance is about £1000 pa, that's £20per week, as far as I am aware  UC will not cover either of these costs even if he lived aboard, which he isn't. He may get assistance with land based rent and Council Tax, he may not get any assistance  living on a boat.

I'm not clear on how folks manage to live on boats, clearly the UC is not enough to pay the fees, never mind maintenance. 

[Slow and Steady]

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

I'm not clear on how folks manage to live on boats, clearly the UC is not enough to pay the fees, never mind maintenance. 

Read Alan's post a couple up from yours. Licence and insurance can be claimed for. Did Janz say he has no savings or possessions he could sell? No he didn't. He drives a Merc. His income may be zero (like mine) but hey - I live on a boat. You make too many snap judgements based on guesswork.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Slow and Steady

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

Read Alan's post a couple up from yours. Licence and insurance can be claimed for. Did Janz say he has no savings or possessions he could sell? No he didn't. He drives a Merc. His income may be zero (like mine) but hey - I live on a boat. You make too many snap judgements based on guesswork.

I'm not making snap judgements, I said, as far as I am aware. It's all assessed on individual circumstances. I do know that the govt don't hand out cash to support boat and car ownership, or major purchases. The amounts available for living, would not allow for purchases of fuel or boating essentials like batteries, diesel, oil, paint etc etc. They don't allow for a decent standard of living, it's subsistence. 

If the government are paying towards rent and council tax they won't be paying for boat licence BSC, and insurance in addition. 

Talking generally, not necessarily about OP, but generally, there is an ongoing cost of keeping a project boat either in the water or on the hard, the longer this goes on the greater the cost. 

Getting the work done with professional assistance can pay off. 

For example, if the work can be done in four weeks instead of six months, that's a saving of 22 weekly costs, in my case, that is 22 x 20, £440. If the plan is to live on board, then the plan can be accelerated, saving on land based costs, maybe including a car, depends on circumstances. I think you lose out on the latest energy payment if you live on a boat. 

Having a permanent gas cooker and a solid fuel stove will go a long way to making boat habitable. Assuming there is a working engine and batteries, it can be finished off on the cut, it's a tough journey, but plenty of people give it a try, some succeed, some give up and sell the boat as a project. 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by LadyG