Midnight Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 A friend of mine has an issue with a Beta 30 cutting out after a couple of minutes. He's had several boat engineers looking at it including a Beta engineer. The concensus is a vacuum issue with the diesel tank but he tried it with the fuel cap off and still same problem. The fuel lines and filters have been checked. My guess is something floating around inside the tank so I suggested he runs the engine until it cuts out then removes the engine fuel filter to see if there's any fuel in it. If it's empty we will know it's a fuel issue. If full he needs to look elsewhere. I'm not a diesel engineer but am surprised one of those who have looked at the problem haven't done that. Any other suggestions or similar experiences with same engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Midnight said: A friend of mine has an issue with a Beta 30 cutting out after a couple of minutes. He's had several boat engineers looking at it including a Beta engineer. The concensus is a vacuum issue with the diesel tank but he tried it with the fuel cap off and still same problem. The fuel lines and filters have been checked. My guess is something floating around inside the tank so I suggested he runs the engine until it cuts out then removes the engine fuel filter to see if there's any fuel in it. If it's empty we will know it's a fuel issue. If full he needs to look elsewhere. I'm not a diesel engineer but am surprised one of those who have looked at the problem haven't done that. Any other suggestions or similar experiences with same engine? That sounds eminently sensible but there would be fuel in it. I think that I would prefer to open a joint on the feed pipe close to the tank and see how much fuel comes out. I would also want to look inside all the filters and water traps between the tank and engine. That may show signs of bug which would tend to confirm your hypothesis. If the lift pump has a priming lever on it then take the engine filter off first and use the priming lever to see how much fuel comes down from the filter head. There have been cases of cracks in Beta filter heads giving similar symptoms. Edited January 17, 2022 by Tony Brooks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 Thank you Tony for your reply. Some more information from my friend. The boat is a Norton Canes about 32 years old it has two diesel tanks with a connecting tube. The engineer who looked at it was recommended by Beta Marine. He checked every pipe and joint in the fuel lines and changed the diesel filters for Beta supplied filters. The engine ran for over an hour afterwards so it was assumed he had fixed it. The next day it ran for the usual few minutes before spluttering and stopping. It's done same ever since. No other work was done since the first Covid lockdown except to have the diesel polished. You mentioned cracked filter heads is that the top part of the filter cartridge or the part of the engine the filter cartridge screws onto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 The filter head is what you screw the cartridge onto and they probably bolt onto the engine block or head. If the priming/bleeding is done by a "push button" on the filter head or a diaphragm chamber else where the diaphragm might have punctured. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Son Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 I had a similar issue on a Beta 43. Started fine, ran for several minutes then cut out. I could manually pump the system and it would start and generally kept running. It was found to be an air leak. All the joints on the fuel lines were tight but one joint still allowed air into the system. The joint was changed and I've not had an issue since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 17, 2022 Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 Unless there is some other symptom then this sounds like fuel. So if it runs then stops how do you restart it? Does it just start then go again for a couple of minutes? If there is some sort of air leak I wonder it it starting as it should, then sucking air till it stops then the air bubble rises to the top of the pipework. You could then have enough solid diesel to restart it and pull a bit of diesel from the tank but a slug of air too and the thing stops again. Difficult to tell without seeing the pipe work. You have got fuel in the tank? These things can take some tracing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 46 minutes ago, Bee said: Unless there is some other symptom then this sounds like fuel. So if it runs then stops how do you restart it? Does it just start then go again for a couple of minutes? If there is some sort of air leak I wonder it it starting as it should, then sucking air till it stops then the air bubble rises to the top of the pipework. You could then have enough solid diesel to restart it and pull a bit of diesel from the tank but a slug of air too and the thing stops again. Difficult to tell without seeing the pipe work. You have got fuel in the tank? These things can take some tracing. I'm going to see on Wednesday not that I can do much more but checkout what's been suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 Another two possibilities. I know you have had a Beta recommended engineer check the pipe unions but olive type unions can crush the pipe if over tightened and then they feel tight but may allow air to be sucked in. So I think would be inclined to open each union (turn the tap on the tank off first) and actually inspect the pipe and olive, If the pipe has waisted or the olive faces badly dished you probably need to cut the olive off and start again. Also if you have an banjo connections using soft washers I would renew all the washers for new copper ones or anneal the old ones. I had endless problems with a leak on the Bukh injector pump banjo and only finally cured it when I fitted Dowty washers (steel washers with a ribber insert). Not sure how well a Dowty washer copes with suction though, but probably worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Brummie Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) Is the transfer pipe blocked between the two tanks? If the take off is from the tank that is fed from the tank with the filler cap, then this would cause the symptoms your friend has. Edited January 18, 2022 by Ex Brummie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 When we had a slight air leak from the filter housing, it made the engine reluctant to start, needed several goes where it would fire and then stop. But once it was going, it was fine. So I’d be more inclined to think fuel blockage or tank vacuum, rather than air leak. If the engine has an electric lift pump it would be easy to check fuel flow by opening the bleed on the filter and checking for plenty of fuel flow with ignition on. Or even if it doesn’t one should be able to disconnect the fuel pipe after the lift pump or manual pump on top of the filter housing (if it has one) and check fuel is freely flowing. Is there a filter gauze on the inlet to the lift pump that could be blocked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 6 hours ago, nicknorman said: When we had a slight air leak from the filter housing, it made the engine reluctant to start, needed several goes where it would fire and then stop. But once it was going, it was fine. So I’d be more inclined to think fuel blockage or tank vacuum, rather than air leak. If the engine has an electric lift pump it would be easy to check fuel flow by opening the bleed on the filter and checking for plenty of fuel flow with ignition on. Or even if it doesn’t one should be able to disconnect the fuel pipe after the lift pump or manual pump on top of the filter housing (if it has one) and check fuel is freely flowing. Is there a filter gauze on the inlet to the lift pump that could be blocked? Thank you for your suggestions. I'm going to take a look tomorrow (Wednesday) we can discount the vacuum theory it does same with diesel filler cap off. It has two connected tanks but I'm told the syphon tube is in the one with the filler. I asked if any work was done prior to the problem but apparently not since they were on their last summer cruise before Covid. The boat stood idle for quite awhile hence my thoughts that some gloop floating around in the tank but the diesel was polished recently. I'm hoping to spot an air leak maybe a cracked connection or filter housing as suggested by Tony Brooks but you would think a Beta recommended engineer would have spotted that. I'll run it until it stops then check how much fuel is in the filter. Several years ago they had a problem with cutting out but only the tidal Ouse (several times - different engine) I went with them down to Selby and it did stop and refused to start for 20 minutes after a branch jammed the propeller. Turned out the fuel lines were laid over the exhaust which must have caused the diesel to boil when the engine stopped. The boat is built like a canoe so only had a 23hp engine back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 31 minutes ago, Midnight said: It has two connected tanks but I'm told the syphon tube is in the one with the filler. That's not good. It means that there will be some old diesel trapped in the non filler/syphon tank which won't get well mixed with fresh diesel. Better to fill one tank and draw from the other. If its a problem with air being drawn in, the lift pump not working properly, or a blocked filter try setting up a temporary gravity feed of (clean) diesel direct to the engine. If it runs happily like that it rather confirms that the issue is one of fuel supply from the main tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted January 18, 2022 Report Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Midnight said: you would think a Beta recommended engineer would have spotted that. Unfortunately and definitely not! When our boat was new we had the problem I mentioned earlier. Warranty issue so Beta sent out a man with a van, from a boatyard (not a Beta employee). He was a complete numpty, left it worse than it was so that when we went out an hour later, the engine completely cut out. I phoned him, he said "maybe you have run out of diesel?" which we hadn't, it was nearly full. He wasn't interested in coming back, just left us engineless. Transpired he had fitted a "new" filter housing (with manual plunger pump thingy on top) - it was obviously second hand, heavily scratched and visibly leaking diesel from the pump plunger. Not impressed! I phoned Beta to complain and requested they send me a new filter housing, which they did. I fitted it myself and here we are 10 years later, it is still perfect. The moral, as usual, is if you want anything doing properly you have to do it yourself. Edited January 18, 2022 by nicknorman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 I'm down looking at the problem but the engine has been running for over an hour. Three maybes 1 before starting the engine I bled it at the filter housing the one with the plastic black button on top 2 noticed a very very slight damp patch on the water trap outlet. I wiped it dry and it still is 3 the vent for the tanks is on the reservoir tank. The two tanks are connected at the bottom with a square pipe. The working tank has the filler and the syphon tube. It's a plastic locking cap and I'm not sure the vent on the cap isn't blocked when the cap us screwed down tight. Am I correct in thinking the vent on the reservoir tank will work for both tanks. The boat is 34 years old so it's a long shot if its a vacuum issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Brummie Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 16 minutes ago, Midnight said: I'm down looking at the problem but the engine has been running for over an hour. Three maybes 1 before starting the engine I bled it at the filter housing the one with the plastic black button on top 2 noticed a very very slight damp patch on the water trap outlet. I wiped it dry and it still is 3 the vent for the tanks is on the reservoir tank. The two tanks are connected at the bottom with a square pipe. The working tank has the filler and the syphon tube. It's a plastic locking cap and I'm not sure the vent on the cap isn't blocked when the cap us screwed down tight. Am I correct in thinking the vent on the reservoir tank will work for both tanks. The boat is 34 years old so it's a long shot if its a vacuum issue. The very slight damp patch on the water trap outlet could be allowing air in when running as it would be under vacuum from the lift pump. I once had similar with a leaking crimp on the lift pump which allowed air to collect at the top of the feed pipe. When the engine cut out there was no sign of it as the lift pump had sucked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Son Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 So, if there was an airlock you removed it by bleeding before you started the engine. When I had a similar issue, mine would run once the airlock had been cleared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Midnight said: Am I correct in thinking the vent on the reservoir tank will work for both tanks. Better if either both tanks are vented or you have a high level air balance pipe between the tanks above fuel level. If one tank is unvented, the fuel level in that tank can't fall as fuel is consumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, David Mack said: Better if either both tanks are vented or you have a high level air balance pipe between the tanks above fuel level. If one tank is unvented, the fuel level in that tank can't fall as fuel is consumed. Thank you plans are afoot to add a vent to the other tank as think the vent hole in the locking filler cap gets blocked when it's screwed down tight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Midnight said: Thank you plans are afoot to add a vent to the other tank as think the vent hole in the locking filler cap gets blocked when it's screwed down tight I suspect venting the filler cap may be contrary to the BSS but I am sure many are vented. AIUI The tank breather must be higher than the filler and equipped with a flame trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 I'm very grateful for the help received. Despite the engine running for 2 hours today I suggested my friend does the following: 1/ Replace the water trap with a CAV filter/water trap positioned lower with new joints on every connection 2/ Add a vent to the working tank as suggested by Tony maybe drilling the dolly (or replacing with a ready drilled one) with the flame trap screwed to it 3/ Replace the filter housing as belt and braces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just looked. The BSS requires that every fuel tank is vented. The small hole in the filler cap is only acceptable on tanks of 30 litres or less (I.e. typical portable outboard motor tanks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 19, 2022 Report Share Posted January 19, 2022 I have seen an image of some of this boat and there is ample evidence of crushed olives on the fuel pipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Following last week's visit when I ran the engine for over 2 hours, my friend rang to say he ran it again but it cut out after 2 minutes. He now has received all the parts I suggested including a new CAV filter/water separator. Whilst I don't discount an air leak the fact that the problem began just after the water trap in the picture was fitted (last November) and that the top of it is above the top of the diesel tank I am erring towards thinking that could a major factor in the problem. The intention is to fit the CAV filter lower using an extended fixing plate. Although the top will be lower than the top of the diesel tank by several inches I'm wondering if that will be enough. On my own boat the CAV is fitted to the counter so below the diesel tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, Midnight said: Whilst I don't discount an air leak the fact that the problem began just after the water trap in the picture was fitted (last November) and that the top of it is above the top of the diesel tank I am erring towards thinking that could a major factor in the problem. If all the joints are correctly made (and air-tight), it shouldn't make any difference. My fuel filters are 4-feet above the pick up pipe in the fuel tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: If all the joints are correctly made (and air-tight), it shouldn't make any difference. My fuel filters are 4-feet above the pick up pipe in the fuel tank. Thank you Alan as you can see the joints are a bit suspicious too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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