Gardner Vs Russel Newbury

[Timleech]

I don't know if the 2L2 was ever marketed as a narrowboat engine. If being fitted in a narrowboat as a replacement to the original unit makes it a 'narrowboat engine' then a VW golf engine marinised is also a 'narrowboat engine'.

 

 

Weelll.... I'm not sure that I agree with that.

They were fitted by commercial operators into working Narrow Boats, that'll do for me.

 

Not a Narrow Boat exactly, there was also the National Coal Board tug Fred whose 2L2 was later fitted into the Monarch and is now in the Alder. Several Leeds & Liverpool Short Boats were fitted with 2L2 engines, I don't know whether they were 'original units' or not but certainly during the boats' commercial lives.

 

Tim

[denboy]

could always try this ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kelvin-T4-Marine-Eng...1QQcmdZViewItem

[carlt]

could always try this ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kelvin-T4-Marine-Eng...1QQcmdZViewItem

£25k .

[denboy]

£25k .

 

 

buy the engine then save up for the boat to put it in bit on the expensive side

[Proper Job]

Weelll.... I'm not sure that I agree with that.

They were fitted by commercial operators into working Narrow Boats, that'll do for me.

 

Not a Narrow Boat exactly, there was also the National Coal Board tug Fred whose 2L2 was later fitted into the Monarch and is now in the Alder. Several Leeds & Liverpool Short Boats were fitted with 2L2 engines, I don't know whether they were 'original units' or not but certainly during the boats' commercial lives.

 

Tim

 

What actually defines a 'narrowboat engine' or a 'vintage engine'. Many 'vintage' engines being fitted today were never 'original' fits in NB's. NB's and their engines have always evolved over the years. How many original horse drawn boats were converted in to motors? Not original fits?

 

Operates were notorious for changing engines and upgrading their boats. Thats the way of the world and always will be.

 

Did any NB's ever get fitting with Kelvins from 'new'? Not that I'm aware of (i'm now doning the flak jacket ready to be corrected). Yet Kelvins were more used in marine applications that industrial. Ailsa Craigs were (retro?) fitted to NB's. RF2's certainly. My RFR4 was built in 1943 but they were never (to my knowledge) fitted in 'original' NB's, but I like to think of it as being a 'vintage marine engine'.

 

Note the 'marine' bit. Does and ex' gen set count cos it never left the factory as a true 'marine' engine?

 

Far as I'm concerned, if looks good, sounds right, does the job, who cares. If the owners happy thats all that matters

 

So what actually is a vintage NB engine? Who dares to define it?

[denboy]

Defination of a vintage narrow boat engine "horse"

although i suspect it would have been a steam engine? then the diesel

just found this nothing to do with narrow boats but fishing boats

By the end of the following year (1909) 75 boats wore fitted with engines of 15 makes, as follows in order of numbers:-

 

Kelvins 25 boats, Gardners 21 boats, Thornycrofts 6 boats, Fairbanks 6 boats, Swedish Alpha 5 boats, Blackstone 2 boats.

 

Parsons, Wear, Renington, Beardmore-Peck, Kormhout, Mitchan, Charde-Bridport, Astor, Truscott, Ferro with one boat each.

Edited November 9, 2007 by denis boyle

[scrumpylurcher]

surely an engine built and manufactured today cannot be a vintage engine. I have nothing but respect for the RN engines and what they do. I have a 2L2 and its high value is mainly down to availability - there are none. The 2LW is still available in small numbers so the cost is high. those are the 2 gardners most suitable for nb use for the reasons phil pointed out. You can still buy boats fitted with 2L2`s and assuming it is a half descent engine there are relative bargains to be had. In practice, again as has been said, since they are based on sound engineering and have high saftey factors built in I find mine not expensive to run. Any engine needs regular maitenance but shouldn`t require regular major repairs. It starts easily even on the handle and sounds fabulous, however a lot of people do not like the noise - each to their own. If you have a good engine regardless of whose manufacture you are probably like me - Happy and Proud.

[carlt]

So what actually is a vintage NB engine? Who dares to define it?

I think it's more to do with having something useful to wrap around your vintage engine. Pretty much any type engine that's been put into a narrow boat has also done a job elsewhere.

 

I see it more as rescuing a vintage engine from the "stationary engine" mob. You go around the shows and ask the exhibitors what the engine pumping blue dyed water out of a bucket and back into a bucket is usually used for and they'll tell you "It's used for pumping water out of my bucket...and back into my bucket". What a waste!

Edited November 9, 2007 by carlt

[John Orentas]

So what actually is a vintage NB engine? Who dares to define it?

 

 

I would say in the context of engines the word 'Vintage' should indicate the age of the design and not necessarily the age of the engine.. So I would say it is legitimate to describe a two year old Gardner as 'vintage' but not a 1960's BMC.

 

But there will always be anomalies, vintage car and bike people bicker constantly on similar issues.. I remember witnessing a heated hour long argument on whether the Alvis 'Hare' should have his left or his right ear cocked forward.

[onthecut]

Hi all.

 

Surely a little harsh that last comment, Carl ? I'm not amongst their number, but I do think the stationary engine community do a great job in saving a lot of kit that would otherwise be lost to everyone. A lot of dedication and skill amongst them, too; surely things we boaters respect as well.

 

For my money, 'vintage' is down to character (or characteristics) so --- (Say) 1500 rpm tops; capable of being hand started; capable of being decompressed; no electrics except optional starter; substantially built; serviceable with minimal tool kit; probably individual fuel pump elements or in line; tolerant of varied fuel and some neglect; substantial oil capacity.

 

I'm sure I could go on, but you see where I'm coming from !

 

Mike.

[carlt]

Hi all.

 

Surely a little harsh that last comment, Carl ? I'm not amongst their number, but I do think the stationary engine community do a great job in saving a lot of kit that would otherwise be lost to everyone. A lot of dedication and skill amongst them, too; surely things we boaters respect as well.

 

For my money, 'vintage' is down to character (or characteristics) so --- (Say) 1500 rpm tops; capable of being hand started; capable of being decompressed; no electrics except optional starter; substantially built; serviceable with minimal tool kit; probably individual fuel pump elements or in line; tolerant of varied fuel and some neglect; substantial oil capacity.

 

I'm sure I could go on, but you see where I'm coming from !

 

Mike.

It was a bit tongue in cheek (I've three stationary engines and more seagulls than boats) but mine all have plans for a useful life, one day....I did actually offer a dinghy to one guy who was displaying a lovely little marine engine, in a box with a perspex lid and sticking out, a shaft and caged off prop. He declined.

[Proper Job]

Generally, I think that the Stationary Engine and Marine Engine fraternity rarely meet in conflict.

 

Most of the SE engines are small horse power (yes, I know there are exceptions) and mostly petrol. The logistics of lumping around Vintage Marine engines, often over 500kg usually procludes them. Especially when there's plently of interesting small stuff around.

 

There are some cross overs in the industrial generator world, but in fairness, a lot of these 'statinary' engines have been marinised by us boaty boys!

 

An engine doing what its been designed for is great. An engine pumping blue water around a tank is better than to have lost the engine completely. If it wasn't for the stationary engine boys a lot of this history would be gone for good.

 

Long may we all carry on side by side.

 

 

Has anyone ever put a large open crank unit in a NB? A big Roby or Tangyes. That would be an interesting project!

 

I wouldn't mind this wee Gardner:

 

http://enginemuseum.org/gallery/displayima...um=3&pos=18

[steamraiser2]

You are all wrong !.. get a Kromhout Gardner... everything good about Gardners with none of the dodgy castings! They run like a Rolex watch!

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Difficult to say which is best - all vintage engines are excellent and am pleased that each manufacturer has its own band of supporters as this helps preserve the various marques. Having said that, RN's are excellent and well suited to canal use and are designed to tick over slowly.

 

Gardner 2LW's which I encounter on the canal, tend to be ticking over too slowly. Manufacturers recommendations are a 420prm tickover for the 2LW and it is posible that a low tick over speed will not be good for the engine long term, especially when 'under way'. It is possible that long term the oil pump in a hydraulic gearbox will also suffer at low tickover speeds.

 

For canal use the 2 & 3 cylinder Gardners are excellent, the engines larger than than that do not work hard enough and suffer as a result, a 40 ft+ boat with a 1L2 (14hp per pot) will struggle to achieve the 4mph speed limit.

 

Spares for the LW range are available and some parts are being re-manufactured (www.gardner-enthusiast.com).

 

I'm a 'Gardner man' - a custodian of a 2LW, the multi cylinder jobs obviously sound sweeter than the the 2 cylinder version, but all are excellent.

 

Albi

[Proper Job]

You are all wrong !.. get a Kromhout Gardner... everything good about Gardners with none of the dodgy castings! They run like a Rolex watch!

Or go for this one:

 

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F173502

 

It comes with a free dental plan!

 

I also met another engine 're-builder' over Easter. He rebuilding a big Dutch semi diesel. Its a three barreled name which I can't remember at the moment. 12.7 litre (yes 12.7!) single cylinder. About 40hp @ 400 rpm. I had a good look at the photo's. Its very similar to a Kromhout M1 (search 'kromhout' on 'You Tube'). Only 9 were made and this is the only known one left. So far its be 3 1/2 years being rebuilt! He intends to fit it in a NB.

[martyn 1]

Hi,

 

Difficult to say which is best - all vintage engines are excellent and am pleased that each manufacturer has its own band of supporters as this helps preserve the various marques. Having said that, RN's are excellent and well suited to canal use and are designed to tick over slowly.

 

Gardner 2LW's which I encounter on the canal, tend to be ticking over too slowly. Manufacturers recommendations are a 420prm tickover for the 2LW and it is posible that a low tick over speed will not be good for the engine long term, especially when 'under way'. It is possible that long term the oil pump in a hydraulic gearbox will also suffer at low tickover speeds.

 

For canal use the 2 & 3 cylinder Gardners are excellent, the engines larger than than that do not work hard enough and suffer as a result, a 40 ft+ boat with a 1L2 (14hp per pot) will struggle to achieve the 4mph speed limit.

 

Spares for the LW range are available and some parts are being re-manufactured (www.gardner-enthusiast.com).

 

I'm a 'Gardner man' - a custodian of a 2LW, the multi cylinder jobs obviously sound sweeter than the the 2 cylinder version, but all are excellent.

 

Albi

 

Would certainly agree about the idle speeds. Gardner LW's were either set at 420 or 330 rpm for idle as new depending on application. 330 does sound nice on a 2 or 3 cylinder but I have seen some running and been asked by many a nb Gardner owner how to get it even lower than the 330. not a good idea!! if you want any oil to get to any moving parts as the pressure starts dropping off drematically below this. and as you said about the gearboxes if people bother to read the owners manual for their PRM boxes that seem to get fitted to every nb Gardner, PRM do not guarantee positive drive below 1500 rpm!! so possible slipping clutches all round.

 

All my collection of Gardner/Kromhout 2/3 cylinder LW's are all set at 420 rpm. as was originally intended. also got more lister JP's/FR's than I can shake a stick at and I like them just as much.

 

Personally be it a RN, Lister or many of the other VINTAGE makes anyone who owns one im sure are very happy. I prefer Lister JP's over the Gardners for some things and vice versa on others all have there plus points and there bad ones.

[NB Alnwick]

All my collection of Gardner/Kromhout 2/3 cylinder LW's are all set at 420 rpm. as was originally intended. also got more lister JP's/FR's than I can shake a stick at and I like them just as much.

 

Personally be it a RN, Lister or many of the other VINTAGE makes anyone who owns one im sure are very happy. I prefer Lister JP's over the Gardners for some things and vice versa on others all have there plus points and there bad ones.

 

Welcome to the forum Martyn! I look forward to reading your ongoing contributions.

[flatplane8]

Would certainly agree about the idle speeds. Gardner LW's were either set at 420 or 330 rpm for idle as new depending on application. 330 does sound nice on a 2 or 3 cylinder but I have seen some running and been asked by many a nb Gardner owner how to get it even lower than the 330. not a good idea!! if you want any oil to get to any moving parts as the pressure starts dropping off drematically below this. and as you said about the gearboxes if people bother to read the owners manual for their PRM boxes that seem to get fitted to every nb Gardner, PRM do not guarantee positive drive below 1500 rpm!! so possible slipping clutches all round.

 

All my collection of Gardner/Kromhout 2/3 cylinder LW's are all set at 420 rpm. as was originally intended. also got more lister JP's/FR's than I can shake a stick at and I like them just as much.

 

Personally be it a RN, Lister or many of the other VINTAGE makes anyone who owns one im sure are very happy. I prefer Lister JP's over the Gardners for some things and vice versa on others all have there plus points and there bad ones.

 

Hi Martyn,

 

I've just bought a boat with a hand start Lister JP3 (1948 vintage I think) . Do you know of any good resources for information, manuals and parts for these?

 

Thanks,

 

Simon

[andywatson]

Or go for this one:

 

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F173502

 

It comes with a free dental plan!

 

I also met another engine 're-builder' over Easter. He rebuilding a big Dutch semi diesel. Its a three barreled name which I can't remember at the moment. 12.7 litre (yes 12.7!) single cylinder. About 40hp @ 400 rpm. I had a good look at the photo's. Its very similar to a Kromhout M1 (search 'kromhout' on 'You Tube'). Only 9 were made and this is the only known one left. So far its be 3 1/2 years being rebuilt! He intends to fit it in a NB.

 

Possibly a Boon, Molema and De Cock?

[Timleech]

Or go for this one:

 

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F173502

 

It comes with a free dental plan!

 

I wonder whether he would take my little 12 hp Sabb semi-diesel as a trade-in

I'd be interested to know whether anyone knows why the Kromhouts were taken out of the GU Royalty class boats, & substitued with 20hp Bolinders. I can think of a couple of potentially valid reasons myself, just wondering about definitive info?

 

Tim

[Proper Job]

Possibly a Boon, Molema and De Cock?

Andy - your a star - that's the one. Its been bugging me since I met him (and promply forgot).

 

Big bugger it was! Has any one got any info on them? I'd never heard off them.

[BEngo]

Andy - your a star - that's the one. Its been bugging me since I met him (and promply forgot).

 

Big bugger it was! Has any one got any info on them? I'd never heard off them.

 

 

It's only a low country BMC!

 

N

[martyn 1]

Welcome to the forum Martyn! I look forward to reading your ongoing contributions.

 

Thankyou for the welcome, Its allways good to talk to other likeminded people.

[martyn 1]

Hi Martyn,

 

I've just bought a boat with a hand start Lister JP3 (1948 vintage I think) . Do you know of any good resources for information, manuals and parts for these?

 

Thanks,

 

Simon

 

Hi Simon

 

I have a fair collection of info/manuals for the JP's so can probably help there might take a while for a manual though as I would have to copy it as only have the original at the mo, Is your JP a JP or JPM (factory built marine unit) as they are different in places. e.g. flywheel is a different ends between marine and industrial, Its the same end as the injector pump on a genuine lister built marine one as a rule. If you drop me a PM with your engine number I can date it for you, It will be either on a brass plate on one of the crankcase doors or it is also stamped on the flywheel.

 

I am currently rebuilding a JP2M and a JP3M and a couple of JP3's so can probably help with parts as will be looking into getting bits made for mine. As most of the places selling parts for them see JP and NB in the same sentence and add a few zeros to the end of the price . Is there anything in perticular you are after.

 

Martyn

[Simon R]

Even though Gardners are not made any more, spare parts are not too much of an issue, these people are still making them: Gardner Enthusiast .

 

I have a pair of Gardners and they are indeed noisy, but they are in need of a rebuild and new exhausts, and a lot of the noise is due to the way they are mounted, which can be changed, pictures here: Glala engines . It's all fixable.

 

If you want a simple quiet life perhaps you should avoid vintage gear, but then, for some, keeping these old things running is a pleasure in itself. Every so often someone has a look in my engine room, smiles, and says something about Gardners being the "Rolls Royce of marine engines" (they are always male and of a certain age).