Gardner Vs Russel Newbury

[LEO]

Hi,

 

More interesting posts on a brilliant subject - it used to be said that 'all engines will take you out to sea, but only a Gardner will always bring you back'.

 

Albi.

[Proper Job]

Hi,

 

More interesting posts on a brilliant subject - it used to be said that 'all engines will take you out to sea, but only a Gardner will always bring you back'.

 

Albi.

I love a man who puts his head above the parapit!

 

Standby for the onslaught!

 

It's only a low country BMC!

 

N

I'd love to see one put in a mini traveller!

 

That'd give the olde Isospastic suspension some thing to do!

[Athy]

Our previous boat had a Rigas Dizelis, nice if unsophisticated slow-revving engone based on a wartime Deutz and still produced in Latvia. My wife hated it but liked its green colour. Our new boat has a 2LW. My wife quite approves of it but, of course, wishes that it was green. So you see, different vintage engines appeal to different people in different ways.

Mr. topic starter, have you chsen an engine yet?

[Petter Doug]

An interesting thread!

 

I'm in the Petter camp.

 

I have a sea-going vessel, a 32' wooden sloop which my parents had built 40 years ago. They sold the boat after 10 years, and for the next 21 years the boat went through another 3 or 4 owners 'til I bought her back into the family in 1999.

The boat still has its original Petter PH2WRMR which is a fabulous engine.

This year I had the engine rebuilt from the ground up, and it now looks just as it did 40 years ago, i.e. it is painted back in its original paint colour, and has the correct Petter logos.

 

I love all 'traditional' or 'vintage' engines, whether they be Listers, Petters, Gardners, RNs, Kelvins etc.

Sadly these kinds of engines are rarely seen in sea-going roles these days, at least not in boats the size of mine, hence I dip my toes in the canal boat world in order to share my interest in these types of engines, and at the same time to exchange ideas and information, and not least to find someone who was able and willing to take on the job of rebuilding my engine.

 

I would have put a photo up of my engine, but a combination of a go-slow on Photobucket, and my PC playing up mean I can't do so!

I'll have another go later at adding a piccy.

 

Doug

[Proper Job]

Vintage engines certainly don't seem to be as popular with the salty people. I have two views on the reasons:

1. The basic design of the narrow boat has not changed so, proportionally speaking, there are a lot more 'replica' nb's in comparison to salty craft.

2. The nb community has pinched a lot of the salty vintage engines to put in to nb's (my own Lister JP3M is ex Royal Navy)

 

Would it be fair to say that the modern sea going boat (apart from a few very nice wooden boats still being built) are generally unsuited to vintage engines?

 

 

I had a Petter PH2W in a 50' nb. 16hp and went for ever. Smashing little engine and still loads of spares available

[saltysplash]

Vintage engines certainly don't seem to be as popular with the salty people. I have two views on the reasons:

1. The basic design of the narrow boat has not changed so, proportionally speaking, there are a lot more 'replica' nb's in comparison to salty craft.

2. The nb community has pinched a lot of the salty vintage engines to put in to nb's (my own Lister JP3M is ex Royal Navy)

 

Would it be fair to say that the modern sea going boat (apart from a few very nice wooden boats still being built) are generally unsuited to vintage engines?

 

 

I had a Petter PH2W in a 50' nb. 16hp and went for ever. Smashing little engine and still loads of spares available

 

 

Sorry. got to disagree.

 

Vintage engines in salty boats are very much the in thing......the downside is breaking down if at sea.

 

My old tub had a 1940's Gardner 4L3 fitted by the admiralty following her decommission from war wrk in 1945, prior to that she had a Petter.

 

That engine, in the 10 years I knew it never once failed its crew while underway.

 

 

Prior to that I had a 1908 Dutch Barge, again with a 1940's engine....this time a 4 pot Lister....still going strong today.

 

[Athy]

Petters have a lot to answer for, Doug. When we bought our first narrowboat in 1998 I didn't know marine engines from a hole in the ground. But the (1989 - built) boat, 'Octavia', had a (1969 - built) Petter PH2, and from the moment I heard it I was a convert. We then moved on to the Rigas - powered boat, and have now progressed to a Gardner.

Mrs. Athy is not totally convinced of its beauty and worth, and occasionally suggests "Isuzu". She gets cross when I reply "Bless you".

[Proper Job]

Sorry. got to disagree.

 

Vintage engines in salty boats are very much the in thing......the downside is breaking down if at sea.

 

My old tub had a 1940's Gardner 4L3 fitted by the admiralty following her decommission from war wrk in 1945, prior to that she had a Petter.

 

That engine, in the 10 years I knew it never once failed its crew while underway.

 

 

Prior to that I had a 1908 Dutch Barge, again with a 1940's engine....this time a 4 pot Lister....still going strong today.

 

I understand what you are saying.

 

Do salty people fit old engines in new boats? Your boats are old (and I mean that in a nice way ) in the first place and you would expect/like to see an old engine in them.

 

I do have trouble with the 'old engines breakdown' (be it at sea or inland) club. I have run many old engines (and some new ones). If serviced regularly I would suggest that they are as reliable and will last longer than many modern units.

 

I would feel a lot more at ease going to sea with a Gardner or Kelvin than a modern unit

[denboy]

agree with the above you try getting a new beta or isuzu to run on one cylinder to get you home in dire times

[saltysplash]

I understand what you are saying.

 

Do salty people fit old engines in new boats? Your boats are old (and I mean that in a nice way ) in the first place and you would expect/like to see an old engine in them.

 

I do have trouble with the 'old engines breakdown' (be it at sea or inland) club. I have run many old engines (and some new ones). If serviced regularly I would suggest that they are as reliable and will last longer than many modern units.

 

I would feel a lot more at ease going to sea with a Gardner or Kelvin than a modern unit

 

 

very true,

 

Ive made numerous channel crossings all with vintage engines which run with the basic of maintainance......modern engines with such high revs do appear to need more maintainance.

 

And your right, Modern sea boats dont fit old engines and I do wish they would see the benefit in fuel consumption at the very least, but, most these days are about speed, they want to get to Calais or Dunkirk ASAP, and are not prepared to spend 12 hours chugging along at 7 knts.

 

I understand now what your saying and concur

[carlt]

The vast majority of narrow boats built are a pastiche of old designs so a new build with an old engine (or a foreign copy) would not be so out of place than if it was dropped in a modern plastic yacht or motor boat.

 

With the increase in new replicas/copies, using traditional materials and methods, in the salty world, though, more and more new builds are incorporating classic engines (or foreign copies).

[andywatson]

Petters have a lot to answer for, Doug. When we bought our first narrowboat in 1998 I didn't know marine engines from a hole in the ground. But the (1989 - built) boat, 'Octavia', had a (1969 - built) Petter PH2, and from the moment I heard it I was a convert. We then moved on to the Rigas - powered boat, and have now progressed to a Gardner.

Mrs. Athy is not totally convinced of its beauty and worth, and occasionally suggests "Isuzu". She gets cross when I reply "Bless you".

 

When Isuzu trucks appeared in South Africa it amused the Zulu's tremendously.

 

Isuzu is the Zulu word for fart.............

Honest.

[Athy]

The french are similarly amused by signs proclaiming "Pet Shop", for the same reason. Some years ago a new Rolls Royce had to be renamed Silver Shadow, as its original name was to have been "Silver Mist", but they discovered that "Mist" is German for dung. The French also find the Christian name Sue amusing, as it means "Sweat" to them.

But the finest example of this sort of word has to be the sign which I saw above the door of a bookshop either in Denmark or Sweden many years ago: "Boghandel".

The choice of newly-built traditional engines available for n/b use seems to have, er, narrowed recently. The Kingfisher appears to have taken a dive, and Longboat Engineering no longer offer the Greaves (Indian-built Ruston & Hornsby) for sale. Peter Thompson no longer imports Rigas Dizelis. perhaps non-compliance with new emissions laws caused their disappearance - the Rigas, for the first hour after starting up, would comply with few emissions laws except perhaps in China!

As I understand it, the only choices now are the Russell Newbery or the Beta JD3, which looks the part but does sound rather as if a tractor is coming down the cut. Perhaps the Lister Canalstar has been in production long enough to count as a trad. engine?

How come, with the continuing strong demand for such engines, more manufacturers do not follow Beta's example? There must be suitable slow-revving base engines which could be marinised for canal and river use.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Athy

[carlt]

The Toyota MR2 had to be renamed, in France, because it sounds like "sh*t".

 

But I digress....

[Proper Job]

agree with the above you try getting a new beta or isuzu to run on one cylinder to get you home in dire times

Many old engines actually tell you in the operator/maintenance manual how to run them when you 'loose' a pot as a 'get you home' option

 

edited to add:

That didn't make them any more unreliable in the first place, it was just a nice reassurance to have

Edited October 21, 2008 by Proper Job

[Petter Doug]

The Toyota MR2 had to be renamed, in France, because it sounds like "sh*t".

 

But I digress....

 

 

I've just spent an hour or so adding more of my thoughts, using the 'quick reply' button, only for the whole lot to be lost!!!!

Why did it all dissappear, telling me there was an error? Grrrrrrrr!!!!

 

I'll try again later, when I've calmed down!!!!

 

 

Doug

[carlt]

I've just spent an hour or so adding more of my thoughts, using the 'quick reply' button, only for the whole lot to be lost!!!!

Why did it all dissappear, telling me there was an error? Grrrrrrrr!!!!

 

I'll try again later, when I've calmed down!!!!

 

 

Doug

As the French would say:

 

MR2!!!

[Petter Doug]

As the French would say:

 

MR2!!!

 

Yes indeed!!

[Proper Job]

How come, with the continuing strong demand for such engines, more manufacturers do not follow Beta's example? There must be suitable slow-revving base engines which could be marinised for canal and river use.

The main problem is that there is very limited demand for these engines. That's why the RN is so expensive to buy new. Small volumes mean production high costs.

 

Its much easier/cheaper to marinise a high volume automotive engine. The JD3 is a marinised tractor engine.

[Athy]

Yes Steve, i realise that: the JD stands for John Deere, an American maker of tractors. But if Beta find it worth while sourcing and marinising these engines, I'd have thought that their rivals (Barrus, Vetus et al) could do likewise - the John Deere can't be the only appropriately-sized slow-thumper currently in production.

Only a few years ago Lister offered in their range the CRK3, a "classic" engine, but I don't know whether they manufactured it from the sump plug up or whether it was based on another company's product.

[Timleech]

Yes Steve, i realise that: the JD stands for John Deere, an American maker of tractors. But if Beta find it worth while sourcing and marinising these engines, I'd have thought that their rivals (Barrus, Vetus et al) could do likewise - the John Deere can't be the only appropriately-sized slow-thumper currently in production.

Only a few years ago Lister offered in their range the CRK3, a "classic" engine, but I don't know whether they manufactured it from the sump plug up or whether it was based on another company's product.

 

I believe it was the Fordson Dexta tractor engine (or more recent equivalent of same), though I'll be happy to be corrected. Something in the darker recesses seems to tell me that Beta once offered the same engine, before the JD.

 

Tim

[Proper Job]

Yes Steve, i realise that: the JD stands for John Deere, an American maker of tractors. But if Beta find it worth while sourcing and marinising these engines, I'd have thought that their rivals (Barrus, Vetus et al) could do likewise - the John Deere can't be the only appropriately-sized slow-thumper currently in production.

Only a few years ago Lister offered in their range the CRK3, a "classic" engine, but I don't know whether they manufactured it from the sump plug up or whether it was based on another company's product.

Sorry..

 

I wasn't trying to teach you to suck eggs.

 

I had thought about marinising one of the Indian sub continent Lister derivatives:

 

24/2

 

They do a 24 hp @ 1000rpm, twin cylinder version with electric start. A good base to start with?

[Athy]

I've heard that such Lister derivatives are still made out in the former Empah. Aren't they generically known as Listeroids (seriously)? More to the point, Steve, would your Indian engine pass EU emission tests?

[Proper Job]

I've heard that such Lister derivatives are still made out in the former Empah. Aren't they generically known as Listeroids (seriously)? More to the point, Steve, would your Indian engine pass EU emission tests?

Listeriods is the generic term for them. I believe that they meet US standards and a while back there was a guy in the UK importing them a container at a time. It was mainly the 6/1 CS clone for the veggi oil home power brigade.

 

Maybe the EU has killed them off?