Gardner Vs Russel Newbury

[onthecut]

Hi all.

 

Another really big plus for the Lister engines is that generally parts prices and availability are much more sensible than for either Gardner or RN -- particularly RN. Probably as a result of buoyant sales in their heyday, there is a good range of aftermarket supplies, with a tolerable choice of suppliers. Yes -- air cooled Listers are clearly noisier than Gardners or RNs, but a nicely set up JP is easily a match for either. For my taste, too many special tools required (at least in theory) for the Gardner and I just have the impression that RN are both expensive to buy and if parts are required. Top of the tree for listening to --- nicely set up Kelvin K2, in my book -- although obviously too much for a narrowboat, in reality. If I had to go smaller and slightly more modern and compact, I also think the Perkins 3.152 makes a nice halfway house between old and new.

 

Mike.

[Travis]

Phil,

 

funny you shoud say you like HRW's, we had one fitted in our last narrowboat, cracking motor.

 

Sorry to say since we went a little larger with our present boat we went with the boatbuilders recommended engine. A FORD! (I know....) but it is the cheapest engine I've owned for service parts, it's basicaly a derated New Holland tractor engine. Living out in the sticks we have several dealers up here who can supply oil and filters fairly cheaply.

 

Andy

[Gnome K Gnome]

which is the best choice between Gardner and Russel Newbury engines.

 

Never heard of a Russel Newbury.

 

Russell Newbery are a good engine though....

[PaddingtonBear]

Russell Newberys are a very expensive option and their spares are even dearer!! but you cannot compare them with anything else of a 'vintage' nature because they are new not 'rebuilt', even the castings and therefore you are not comparing like with like. In any event because of their rareity and their varied history you cannot compare vintage engines even of the same type. There is also a tremendous problem as there is no clear definition of rebuilt/refurbished/overhauled which stretches from washing over with a diesel rag to what Warrior Woman(www.nbwarrior.blogspot.com) has done with her 3cyl National. Compare this with the sorry tale of the good folks on HADAR with their 'refurbished' National.

Edited October 30, 2007 by PaddingtonBear

[magnetman]

The RN diesel engine company offer both brand new and remanufactured units. They will build a new DM1,2,3 or even a DM4 if they get an order. The DM2 is the most popular (because of the sound?) note their use of the word 'remanufactured'. This means what it says unlike 'rebuilt' or 'overhauled' both of which can often be translated as 'repainted and new filters'.

[Gibbo]

..... translated as 'repainted and new filters'.

 

If you remove "and new filters" you have a reasonable euphemism for "marinised".

 

Gibbo

[Sir Nibble]

If you remove "and new filters" you have a reasonable euphemism for "marinised".

 

Gibbo

Don't forget to double the price.

[PaddingtonBear]

Only double - Blimey that is cheap Seriously though, on another forum it was noted by one who should know that some topline builders are paying £10000 or so for 2lw Gardners so they must be getting rare. It is also a fact that 17.5% of the RN price is VAT making the true comparative cost for a 2cyl £14300.00 and I am certain that the exchange of falling down tokens for a knackered lump of 'vintage' iron wouldn't carry this cost. It is also true that the RN is a genuine marine engine as opposed to a generator or a bus engine.

[onthecut]

Hi PaddingtonBear.

 

Errrmmmm ---- would that be the marine version of the D type generator engine you are referring to ?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!! It's neither more nor less marine than any of the corresponding Gardner, Lister,Kelvin, etc. etc. engines, also designated 'marine'. What it is -- I think -- is very, very overpriced.

 

Mike.

[PaddingtonBear]

That may well be true but the point that I was trying to make is that the RN is a completed fully marinised engine which to all intents and purposes is new and it comes with a gearbox albeit hydraulic and a high output marine alternator as well as a direct drive water pump. You obviously get a substantial guarantee I suppose.

I do agree that they are not cheap but someone musty like them as they have apparently sold all their production for the next year or so and are taking on no more rebuilds for this reason, If cheap is the arbiter buy an old air cooled dumper engine.

 

I have absolutely no direct connection with RN before anyone else throws any more snide remarks in my direction

[onthecut]

Hi PB.

 

Sorry -- my response wasn't meant to be snide -- just factual. I do think though that the issue isn't between RN price and 'cheap', but value -- and I just don't see it. I would like to think however that at least we're bantering on the same side of the engine fence, so to speak, 'cause I bet you haven't got an umpteen thousand rpm buzz box pushing you along !

 

Mike.

[magnetman]

As the owner of a DM2 i'm pleased that some people are prepared to spend 18k on a new one (my boat wasn't much more than that and it had the engine in it) because it makes the availability of spare parts more likely to last. Ok they are expensive parts but if I had a Glennifer DB2, for example, spares would be virtually nonexistent. Long live RN.

[jactomtroub]

My boat has a Gardner 2LW it starts first time, smokes only a little, leaks not a drop. It is the heart of our boat. We are happy with it and that is really what its all about. Each to thier own and enjoy.

Jacqui

[PaddingtonBear]

Sorry to be boring but another good point re RN is that by keeping all the work 'in house'(except white metalling) they are keeping alive 'proper' engineering skills as well as providing a means of passing on these skills to a new generation of Allisters as they have recently taken on an apprentice as well as a young person doing the assembly. Well a young person In RN terms anyway and they can't grow a beard!!Hi Mike No apology necessary - the fault is all mine, I am just a grumpy old sod who doesn't understand you young people and your way of talking.

And yes I am a member of the RN register but I don't own one

Edited October 30, 2007 by PaddingtonBear

[Hairy-Neil]

A multi cylinder high capacity "classic" diesel engine needs to work to stay sweet.

Phil

 

I'm a huge fan of of our engineering heritage but also understand Phil's statement above.....I know a man that had his boat built around a Lister JP3 and another that restored a huge Kelvin then had a boat built to put it in.......Both eventually gave in and bought 'sensible' narrowboat engines.....

[hector1988]

In reply to the original question...Gardners are quiter and smoother no doubt at all.

I have had a DM2 long term and they are a great engine, but do have some

vibrations that you dont get with the gardners.

Dave

[magnetman]

Which gardner model are you comparing with, 2LW or 2L2?. Some RNs send a knocking noise through the boat's steelwork but this can be avoided by installing the engine on heavy oak bearers with countersunk bolts to avoid metal to metal contact.

[Gibbo]

I'm a huge fan of of our engineering heritage but also understand Phil's statement above.....I know a man that had his boat built around a Lister JP3 and another that restored a huge Kelvin then had a boat built to put it in.......Both eventually gave in and bought 'sensible' narrowboat engines.....

 

And by the same token I know someone who had a boat with a "sensible" engine and had it removed and replaced with a 3LW because the "sensible" enginge had zero character and made a horrible noise like a cross between a small van and a vacuum cleaner which is completely wrong on a boat.

 

 

Gibbo

[Strads]

Ummh.. doing a ramble through and here is something I can comment on..

 

we recently bought our boat Lincoln, and just getting into using her and she has a RN DM3, refurbished and with a hydrualic gearbox..

no leaks, classic heavy slow revving tick over / beat -

we had numerous comments last saturday - made us very proud,, so thanks to you admirers.

 

When looking we had wanted a "vintage" engine and having experienced a kelvin K2 boat were looking hard for one that had a K2 or even a K3,

 

Also looked at a few J3 boats. only 2 K2 engined boats were in reasonable condition, one was fabulous re engine room paint, but very poor bathroom/loo

the other was a 70 ft living room almost with a short @ 5.6" dble bed that was also under 4ft wide... rest was nicely done but would have meant ruining the fit out to get reasonable bed.

 

so after listening to a number of engines looking at oil leaks (gardners mainly) and listers, looking a bit tired, the RN with a clean paint finish and some brass won us over, yes it was more dosh, but I guess what supprised me was how poorly presented (not cleaned and checked) a number of Big/vintage engines were..

 

Sellers knew we were coming, but hadnt wiped oil or dirt off, some had cat litter underneath that was saoked in oil.. some had leaky manifold/exhausts,,

some just didnt/wouldnt start, ( didnt expect concours condition but !)

 

Hence we excluded the risks and walked away smartly only considering boats with engines that seemed to have had some TLC and worked/started ok

 

 

I can admire most of the larger classic engines and indeed in some new boats have seen some nice CAT engines sounding pretty good.

so I think I would ask more of how reliable and easy is it to get serviced / parts etc rather than shout for a specific engine..

and look at how any clean engine can look attractive if in a reasonably presented engine room etc..

 

so no help in making a specific choice more my rational on ending up with a RN powered boat..

[PaddingtonBear]

For all those interested in 'vintage' engines see this (Dec.) months Canal Boat which is out now as it features Warrior Woman's National engine rebuild in glorious Technicolor.

Edited November 8, 2007 by PaddingtonBear

[Timleech]

The Gardner is intrinsically a much easier starter than an RN, probably also better fuel economy.

Did someone say they were 'not a Narrow Boat engine'? There were a few working NB's fitted with 2L2 Gardners, probably the ultimate NB engine in my book.

 

Tim

[Liam]

Gardners were also installed in the Cowburn & Cowpar boats. Stork still has the original single cylinder, two stroke, hot bulb semi diesel started by a blowlamp, and a brass retracting pin in the flywheel (like a Bolinder). It gives 12hp at 475rpm. The exhaust note is absolutely wonderful.

 

According to Paul, who owns stork, my uncle's Large Northwich motor with a Lister JP2 is a "slow" boat !

 

 

Edited to correct my spelling.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Liam

[magnetman]

I know about the hot bulb engines but i am interested to know which working NBs were originally fitted with Gardner 2L2's - any details of boat names and operators? Why were they not popular like the L3 range was in larger boats? I do like to be corrected when I'm wrong.

[Timleech]

I know about the hot bulb engines but i am interested to know which working NBs were originally fitted with Gardner 2L2's - any details of boat names and operators? Why were they not popular like the L3 range was in larger boats? I do like to be corrected when I'm wrong.

 

I didn't say originally fitted though some may well have been.

Those which spring immediately to mind are the Princess Anne (2L2 fitted by Elements during WWII, I believe) and the Ibis/Ibex, whose 2L2 was removed by British Waterways in the late 1960's and wrecked by dropping on the scrap pile (heathens!).

 

They were perhaps more expensive than their competitors and maybe just slightly more sophisticated/vulnerable to abuse.

I remember Nationals being described by someone who ran them in working boats as 'blacksmith engineering', maybe a bit unkind to them but maybe it made them better suited to the care of the average boatman.

 

Tim

[magnetman]

I don't know if the 2L2 was ever marketed as a narrowboat engine. If being fitted in a narrowboat as a replacement to the original unit makes it a 'narrowboat engine' then a VW golf engine marinised is also a 'narrowboat engine'.I don't know if the 2L2 was ever marketed as a narrowboat engine. If being fitted in a narrowboat as a replacement to the original unit makes it a 'narrowboat engine' then a VW golf engine marinised is also a 'narrowboat engine'.