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Lister Jp electric start conversion.


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Hello folks. 

I have a friend who is looking at a boat with a hand start only Jp2 in it. She would need it converting to electric start so I'm looking out for a Jp flywheel with ring gear attached plus a suitable starter motor. 

 

Does anyone on here have one for sale? Or any of the bits that would assist with the conversion (I'm assuming that I will have to fabricate a mount for the starter but if there are fittings available I would mu h rather buy one that was made for the purpose) 

 

All the best, s

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A CAV BS5 or BS6 is the right size starter motor.  The BS5 ( 5 in  body diameter)  is available in 12V or 24V.  I think a BS6 may only be a 24V device. Both are axial starters where the pinion is brought into mesh automatically by the working of the starter.  The whole armature slides axially.

You will need to choose the pinion to match the starter ring.  Machining the flywheel is not technically difficult, but you need either a damn big lathe or, as the late Tim Leech did, machine it with a turret mill (Bridgeport)  and a big  rotary table.  MPS may well give you a steer for a machinist if you buy a ring gear from them.

N

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19 minutes ago, BEngo said:

MPS may well give you a steer for a machinist if you buy a ring gear from them.

MPS will fit the ring gear for you if you ship the flywheel to them. Details on the link I posted earlier.

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The cheapest way to do this would be to source an industrial unit with these items fitted to it, you would end up with a couple of spare cylinder heads too!

 The only caveat is that some are fitted with a different sized flywheel and you are more likely to find an industrial 3 than a 2, which will mean you would need to put the timing marks in the correct place on the new one. 

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1 hour ago, BWM said:

The cheapest way to do this would be to source an industrial unit with these items fitted to it, you would end up with a couple of spare cylinder heads too!

 The only caveat is that some are fitted with a different sized flywheel and you are more likely to find an industrial 3 than a 2, which will mean you would need to put the timing marks in the correct place on the new one. 

You might also find the starter motor has opposite rotation to a marine unit unless you want to get very creative with the mounting. JP4's & 3's often pop up on eBay....sometimes not for daft money. You are right about the timing marks.....been there with mine......and it did run!

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34 minutes ago, frangar said:

You might also find the starter motor has opposite rotation to a marine unit unless you want to get very creative with the mounting. JP4's & 3's often pop up on eBay....sometimes not for daft money. You are right about the timing marks.....been there with mine......and it did run!

I should have mentioned that, thanks, but the OP said he was happy to fabricate one. They often go for around £1,000 complete so potentially considerably cheaper than shipping, machining, parts, etc.

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There was a boat back in 1985 called Grange End which had a Lister CE2 with hand start.  When sold, the new owner had a set up with a belt drive from a motor with suitable pulley.  It's now got a Gardner now I believe.

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9 minutes ago, rustynewbery said:

There was a boat back in 1985 called Grange End which had a Lister CE2 with hand start.  When sold, the new owner had a set up with a belt drive from a motor with suitable pulley.  It's now got a Gardner now I believe.

Probably a dynastart, a friend has one installed on a Jp1. More of an aid to starting than a standalone start mechanism on this type of engine. 

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57 minutes ago, BWM said:

Probably a dynastart, a friend has one installed on a Jp1. More of an aid to starting than a standalone start mechanism on this type of engine. 

Yes that was the one.

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Looks like its Redshaws selling it. I wonder what they've put in in its place.

He's a very reputable trader who could at least give a firm idea of condition and it would appear more suitable for marine use than most i suppose. 

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17 hours ago, BEngo said:

A CAV BS5 or BS6 is the right size starter motor.  The BS5 ( 5 in  body diameter)  is available in 12V or 24V.  I think a BS6 may only be a 24V device. Both are axial starters where the pinion is brought into mesh automatically by the working of the starter.  The whole armature slides axially.

You will need to choose the pinion to match the starter ring.  Machining the flywheel is not technically difficult, but you need either a damn big lathe or, as the late Tim Leech did, machine it with a turret mill (Bridgeport)  and a big  rotary table.  MPS may well give you a steer for a machinist if you buy a ring gear from them.

N

Both these starters are extremely difficult to get parts for and a BS6/U6 would be overkill. It makes more sense to use something modern. KISS. An M50 or any number of readily available Bosch units would be my starting point. (No pun intended).

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I'm unfamiliar with the M50 but wonder wether it would have the necessary torque to throw a Jp over on a cold day? The sae 30 makes this process very different than a much larger capacity modern diesel. I've always assumed this is why most opt for older starter motors for this application. 

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49 minutes ago, BWM said:

I'm unfamiliar with the M50 but wonder wether it would have the necessary torque to throw a Jp over on a cold day? The sae 30 makes this process very different than a much larger capacity modern diesel. I've always assumed this is why most opt for older starter motors for this application. 

5" Lucas pre engaged starter. Widely used, ford, Perkins etc. Bosch make a superb range of co-axial starters visually very similar to the BS5 and SL5 with plentiful parts availability with flange or strap mounting. I can get them brand new for a couple of hundred. Back in the day I used to build CAV axial starters all day long but the only reason I can see now is to maintain originality. The S115 (metric ca45) is still available but at a 4 figure price.

IS9105___5.4KW_2_512d0fb09c2fd.jpg

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Thanks everyone, 

I might actually follow that, suggestion and look for a Jp3 complete for spares, in which case I would have plenty of bits for Prince's JS as well as a flywheel and starter for my friend. 

 

Anyone got one kicking around? :)

 

I've just had a look at the JS and the starter is bolted to the engine bearer via a cast plate with the straps in o e piece. If I have a hard time finding a donor engine I think I could make up something similar. 

 

That one at redshaws is too pricey for me. I'll have a search now, but if anyone knows of an engine (ideally In poor condition - I don't think I could strip a good one for parts) I'd be grateful. 

 

S

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Note that the Redshaws engine is ex-industrial and has the flywheel at the opposite end to a marine unit. I think that means the starter motor will be opposite rotation to a marine unit. And also the place on the crankcase where the starter is attached will be different at the opposite corner, so different mounting arrangements are likely to be required.

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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Note that the Redshaws engine is ex-industrial and has the flywheel at the opposite end to a marine unit. I think that means the starter motor will be opposite rotation to a marine unit. And also the place on the crankcase where the starter is attached will be different at the opposite corner, so different mounting arrangements are likely to be required.

Indeed, I was just starting to look for any Jp3 engines online (from generators etc) but might have to think on the direction and mounting of the starter some more if it may be of the wrong rotation. 

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Some starters can be directionally reversed fairly easily.  Others are practically impossible.  Snibble will no doubt know which are easily reversed.

N

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3 hours ago, BEngo said:

Some starters can be directionally reversed fairly easily.  Others are practically impossible.  Snibble will no doubt know which are easily reversed.

N

None easily. Armature and drive need to be replaced on most. No good spinning the motor backwards if the one way clutch is slipping and armature splines trying with the full force of the motor to drag it out of mesh.

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A quick search online suggests BS5 starters are still available both with bolt flange and clamp mountings...not cheap mind you....You might need to enquire about the rotation but they seem to be fitted to things like Fergie tractors and Bentleys. Of course just because they are listed on a website doesnt mean they actually exist but a call/email might find this out.

 

Another alternative might be one of the "clockwork" starters....Im sure I read somewhere that someone had fitted one with a rubber drive wheel that ran on a JP flywheel......

 

edited to add a random link I found

 

https://startermotorsalternators.com/starter-motors?product_id=98

Edited by frangar
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Spring/inertia starters are lethal things.  There is a huge amount of energy stored in a wound-up one, and the only way to release it safely is into a flywheel.

  If you cock it and trip the lever and nowt happens ( a fairly common failure state) you are in need of Luigi and the Boys to find you some fresh concrete to put it in.  They cannot safely  be dismantled whilst wound-up and even removing them from an engine is quite risky.

 

N

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