New '5-minute charge' BEV batteries.

[nb Innisfree]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I found a good low mileage Ampera but the daughter assured me her need was greater than mine! I really want a model S but same as the Ampera its to big for Jaynes parking space. Until then we will continue our search for the right I3

Try to go for 2018 up, they seem to have 4g, beware above £40k when new trap, easily exceeded if equipped with extras. 

[NB Alnwick]

I still think that despite the complexity, the 'belt and braces' approach of having a built in generator is an excellent concept - sadly I am in a minority with this view (not for the first time!)

Also I agree that with money to spare - a Tesla model 'S' would be the only way to go . . .

[Dr Bob]

21 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

 

Also I agree that with money to spare - a Tesla model 'S' would be the only way to go . . .

Nah, the M3 is brilliant. Best car I have ever driven .....and I had Porsche Boxters as company cars in the 90's and 00's.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

Nah, the M3 is brilliant. Best car I have ever driven .....and I had Porsche Boxters as company cars in the 90's and 00's.

I have driven a model 3 and S the S is best Bob, and the S was older the 3 belongs to the business opposite ours

[nb Innisfree]

1 hour ago, NB Alnwick said:

I still think that despite the complexity, the 'belt and braces' approach of having a built in generator is an excellent concept - sadly I am in a minority with this view (not for the first time!)

Also I agree that with money to spare - a Tesla model 'S' would be the only way to go . . .

Must admit the range extender does give us a sense of security, a couple of times we've had to take an unexpected long detour with a lowish battery, didn't actually need it but did give peace of mind.

A German company have produced and fitted as a one off proof of concept, a 101 kwh battery for the i3, now that would be a handy fitment, 400 mile range. 

[IanD]

"Range extender" cars do have advantages for the user (range anxiety etc.) but there are two big problems with them, which is why they haven't been widely adopted...

 

The first is high cost and complexity, because they have an onboard petrol engine (not cheap nowadays with emissions requirements) driving a generator, and a separate high-power motor/drive system -- basically, they're a BEV with an onboard generator. Since the cost is high and there's a lot of added stuff to increase weight and size, there's a tendency by manufacturers to undersize components to reduce cost and weight, so the electric drive system is often lower power than a pure BEV and the battery is almost always a lot smaller (cheaper) meaning battery range is far smaller -- this is justified by saying the generator ("range extender") means you don't need such long range because this can be used instead, but the much smaller battery makes it much more likely that this will *need* to be used on longer journeys.

 

Pennypinching also makes is less likely that the battery/charging/protection system will be as good as it could be because money has to be spent on the generator instead, so battery life is likely to be lower than a pure BEV. Same issue for the engine/generator -- everything has to be designed and built down to a price because the money is spread more thinly across more components compared to ICE and especially BEV. Yes there's cost saving on the battery, but this has dropped rapidly and is continuing to do so.

 

The second is suspicion that all this means they're an exercise in greenwashing, low CO2 figures on tests but not so much in real life, so governments aren't keen on them either -- they think that the "range extender" will be used much more often than claimed, and that on long journeys people will spend 5 minutes filling up with petrol instead of half and hour or an hour charging up -- maybe not as much as the "plug-in hybrid" vehicles with a claimed 30mile battery range (15-20miles in practice) which are often just a thinly disguised tax dodge, but still considerably worse in reality for CO2 emissions than BEV.

 

So they don't have the BEV benefits of being simple (reliable) and guaranteed low-CO2,and they have all the ICE/generator downsides (engine servicing/oil/belts/spark plugs/belts/emissions controls...) -- plus the complexity of both. Add this to the need to keep costs of all the components down (because there are so many of them) and this is a recipe for short life, unreliability and high maintenance costs.

 

In one way they help with "range anxiety" (but only by making it almost certain that any long journey where you'd worry about this with a BEV will run on petrol most of the time...), but from pretty much all other points of view they're a mess. Which is why very few manufacturers made them even when batteries were expensive, and if they did they don't any more.

Edited January 25, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

"Range extender" cars do have advantages for the user (range anxiety etc.) but there are two big problems with them, which is why they haven't been widely adopted...

 

The first is high cost and complexity, because they have an onboard petrol engine (not cheap nowadays with emissions requirements) driving a generator, and a separate high-power motor/drive system -- basically, they're a BEV with an onboard generator. Since the cost is high and there's a lot of added stuff to increase weight and size, there's a tendency by manufacturers to undersize components to reduce cost and weight, so the electric drive system is often lower power than a pure BEV and the battery is almost always a lot smaller (cheaper) meaning battery range is far smaller -- this is justified by saying the generator ("range extender") means you don't need such long range because this can be used instead, but the much smaller battery makes it much more likely that this will *need* to be used on longer journeys.

 

Pennypinching also makes is less likely that the battery/charging/protection system will be as good as it could be because money has to be spent on the generator instead, so battery life is likely to be lower than a pure BEV. Same issue for the engine/generator -- everything has to be designed and built down to a price because the money is spread more thinly across more components compared to ICE and especially BEV. Yes there's cost saving on the battery, but this has dropped rapidly and is continuing to do so.

 

The second is suspicion that all this means they're an exercise in greenwashing, low CO2 figures on tests but not so much in real life, so governments aren't keen on them either -- they think that the "range extender" will be used much more often than claimed, and that on long journeys people will spend 5 minutes filling up with petrol instead of half and hour or an hour charging up -- maybe not as much as the "plug-in hybrid" vehicles with a claimed 30mile battery range (15-20miles in practice) which are often just a thinly disguised tax dodge, but still considerably worse in reality for CO2 emissions than BEV.

 

So they don't have the BEV benefits of being simple (reliable) and guaranteed low-CO2,and they have all the ICE/generator downsides (engine servicing/oil/belts/spark plugs/belts/emissions controls...) -- plus the complexity of both. Add this to the need to keep costs of all the components down (because there are so many of them) and this is a recipe for short life, unreliability and high maintenance costs.

 

In one way they help with "range anxiety" (but only by making it almost certain that any long journey where you'd worry about this with a BEV will run on petrol most of the time...), but from pretty much all other points of view they're a mess. Which is why very few manufacturers made them even when batteries were expensive, and if they did they don't any more.

BMW produced both and judged the sales in the end Rex's were outselling the BEV so they upped the battery size. Surprisingly the REX still outsold the BEV so again they upped the battery size! I suspect a larger battery will be on the cards shortly ?

The petrol tank on the I3 is 9 litres I suspect it spends most of its time on the batteries plus its speed is limited on the Rex 

Edited January 25, 2021 by peterboat

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

BMW produced both and judged the sales in the end Rex's were outselling the BEV so they upped the battery size. Surprisingly the REX still outsold the BEV so again they upped the battery size! I suspect a larger battery will be on the cards shortly ?

BMWs BEVs were crap at the time (with tiny batteries by today's standards) so it's not surprising people bought their (very expensive!) Rexs, and they're still lagging behind much of the rest of the industry because they'd rather people bought their ICE "ultimate driving machines" that they've spent so much money polishing to perfection over the years.

 

Rexs were a short-term expensive stopgap solution to a problem that most people don't have any more -- very few people today have a "range anxiety" problem with 300 mile BEV range, at least not in the UK. The biggest BEV issue for most is recharging if they can't plug in at home, and Rexs don't fix this.

Edited January 25, 2021 by IanD

[NB Alnwick]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

>Snip<

The biggest BEV issue for most is recharging if they can't plug in at home, and Rexs don't fix this.

Which is why the only way to ensure real change is for governments to provide free roadside charging - it may never happen but there have been experiments with induction coils in the road surface and even overhead wires for HGVs  . . .

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

BMWs BEVs were crap at the time (with tiny batteries by today's standards) so it's not surprising people bought their (very expensive!) Rexs, and they're still lagging behind much of the rest of the industry because they'd rather people bought their ICE "ultimate driving machines" that they've spent so much money polishing to perfection over the years.

 

Rexs were a short-term expensive stopgap solution to a problem that most people don't have any more -- very few people today have a "range anxiety" problem with 300 mile BEV range, at least not in the UK. The biggest BEV issue for most is recharging if they can't plug in at home, and Rexs don't fix this.

Let's look at another way, it's a great city car that can go on longer journeys, it fulfills that criteria perfectly as a rex. Yes its expensive but aren't all BMW'S? But it's carbon fiber and aluminium chassis so it's no surprise really, as I say we are looking for one and fully expect that like most we will do 99% on the batteries 

[NB Alnwick]

Does anyone remember the trolley bus?

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Let's look at another way, it's a great city car that can go on longer journeys, it fulfills that criteria perfectly as a rex. Yes its expensive but aren't all BMW'S? But it's carbon fiber and aluminium chassis so it's no surprise really, as I say we are looking for one and fully expect that like most we will do 99% on the batteries 

And it'll be 0.001% of the BEV market ?

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

Does anyone remember the trolley bus?

Yes we had them in Sheffield and Rotherham. We went on one in Athens it ran on overhead lines, batteries and a diesel genny if all else failed!

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

Which is why the only way to ensure real change is for governments to provide free roadside charging - it may never happen but there have been experiments with induction coils in the road surface and even overhead wires for HGVs  . . .

So should governments provide free petrol too?

 

Governments should put incentives in place to encourage charging points to be installed, and might even consider building their own "national network" if this reduced costs. But there's no reason they should give the energy away for free, it's cheap enough anyway compared to ICE.

 

Induction coils in the road are a techie-bollocks woo-woo red herring which makes no sense apart from fleecing gullible investors to put money into companies claiming they'll provide them -- all you have to do is look at how many million pounds per mile they'd cost. They'd make overhead wires look cheap...

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

So should governments provide free petrol too?

 

Governments should put incentives in place to encourage charging points to be installed, and might even consider building their own "national network" if this reduced costs. But there's no reason they should give the energy away for free, it's cheap enough anyway compared to ICE.

 

Induction coils in the road are a techie-bollocks woo-woo red herring which makes no sense apart from fleecing gullible investors to put money into companies claiming they'll provide them -- all you have to do is look at how many million pounds per mile they'd cost. They'd make overhead wires look cheap...

And overhead wires are the way to go for lorries and buses on the motorway 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Governments should put incentives in place to encourage charging points to be installed, and might even consider building their own "national network" if this reduced costs. But there's no reason they should give the energy away for free, it's cheap enough anyway compared to ICE.

 

 

Royal Dutch Shell is buying European electric vehicle (EV) charging network operator ubitricity for an undisclosed sum, the two companies said on Monday.

 

 

Ubitricity operates in a number of European countries, and is the largest public EV charging network in the UK with more than 2,700 charge points. It works with local authorities to integrate EV charging into existing street infrastructure such as lamp posts and bollards.

The deal is expected to be completed later this year. Shell is aiming to become a net-zero emissions energy business by 2050 or sooner.

Founded in Berlin, ubitricity has also established emerging public charging positions in Germany and France and has installed more than 1,500 private charge points for fleet customers within Europe.

“This acquisition marks Shell’s expansion into the fast-growing on-street EV charging market and will provide critical competencies, helping Shell to scale their overall EV charging offer,” ubitricity said in a statement.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Royal Dutch Shell is buying European electric vehicle (EV) charging network operator ubitricity for an undisclosed sum, the two companies said on Monday.

 

 

Ubitricity operates in a number of European countries, and is the largest public EV charging network in the UK with more than 2,700 charge points. It works with local authorities to integrate EV charging into existing street infrastructure such as lamp posts and bollards.

The deal is expected to be completed later this year. Shell is aiming to become a net-zero emissions energy business by 2050 or sooner.

Founded in Berlin, ubitricity has also established emerging public charging positions in Germany and France and has installed more than 1,500 private charge points for fleet customers within Europe.

“This acquisition marks Shell’s expansion into the fast-growing on-street EV charging market and will provide critical competencies, helping Shell to scale their overall EV charging offer,” ubitricity said in a statement.

Whether privatised charging networks makes sense when BEV are widespread is an interesting question. There will be competition (good) and a drive to efficiency (good) but also wasteful and unnecessary duplication like the pre-merger railways had, as well as profit syphoning to shareholders and overpaid executives.

 

The big problem will be that without a universal service obligation like the post they'll have little incentive to install charging stations in remote or light-use areas, because the cost of getting the power to them is huge unlike petrol stations where you just send a tanker.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

And overhead wires are the way to go for lorries and buses on the motorway 

...until you look at the costs and practicalities of doing it ?

 

Hard enough to justify (at least in the UK) for railways which have a fixed loading gauge and closely controlled stock and a relatively small mileage. Now do that on a motorway open to the public -- how high up do the 25kV cables have to be, how do you keep people away from them, what about overheight vehicles, what happens when a ladder falls off a roofrack, how often are they brought down by accidents, where do the support pillars and gantries go (width is many times bigger than railways)...

 

It's like flying cars and elevated monorails, one of those things that looks pretty in futuristic drawings but doesn't add up in real life.

Edited January 25, 2021 by IanD

[Dr Bob]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Whether privatised charging networks makes sense when BEV are widespread is an interesting question. There will be competition (good) and a drive to efficiency (good) but also wasteful and unnecessary duplication like the pre-merger railways had, as well as profit syphoning to shareholders and overpaid executives.

 

The big problem will be that without a universal service obligation like the post they'll have little incentive to install charging stations in remote or light-use areas, because the cost of getting the power to them is huge unlike petrol stations where you just send a tanker.

The problem with charging  points in England/Wales is that there are too many independent networks, each requiring their own app to operate, using old kit that doesnt work. Most users think they are unreliable.

In Scotland, the government has installed charging areas in many many towns all operated by Charge point Scotland. You pay £10 for a card and it works everywhere. All kit is new so it does charge your car. You can drive from town to town knowing that you can get charged. It is so different to down south. A lot of the sites are still free to use but in time they will start to charge - and maybe at 25p per unit, that is still half of the price of petrol.

[nb Innisfree]

36 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Yes we had them in Sheffield and Rotherham. We went on one in Athens it ran on overhead lines, batteries and a diesel genny if all else failed!

When was that? I left Sheffield in '66 and don't recall them. 

[nb Innisfree]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

BMW produced both and judged the sales in the end Rex's were outselling the BEV so they upped the battery size. Surprisingly the REX still outsold the BEV so again they upped the battery size! I suspect a larger battery will be on the cards shortly ?

The petrol tank on the I3 is 9 litres I suspect it spends most of its time on the batteries plus its speed is limited on the Rex 

 Even the latest 120ah i3 is still limited.  The 101 kwh I mentioned earlier might be on the cards? 

 

The speed on when on rex isn't actually limited, same performance, just that above 70mph it's increasingly augmented by the battery. 

[nb Innisfree]

I suspect that in the future long distance leisure driving will be discouraged, achieved by some sort of extra charge, maybe a toll system. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Induction coils in the road are a techie-bollocks woo-woo red herring which makes no sense

 

Scalextric track in the road. 

 

Useless for cars but would be quite  entertaining with cyclists ...

[NB Alnwick]

21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Scalextric track in the road. 

 

Useless for cars but would be quite  entertaining with cyclists ...

 

As were (and are again) tram lines . . .

And look what they are trialling in Germany!

 

[NB Alnwick]

It would certainly keep lorries in the nearside lane!