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New '5-minute charge' BEV batteries.


Alan de Enfield

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8 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

So when you use this "break pedal" does the car automatically stop and make you a cup of coffee, or does one of the cars many functions cease to operate? ???

 

Also how do you apply the cars brakes?

 

Yours affectionately, Cuthound the pedant ??

For those who have never driven an EV. The car has brakes like every car which slow the car down when you press the brake pedal. The difference is that the car is also slowed down by the regen braking device - ie a flywheel type arrangement linked to a rather large alternator which generates power when slowing down. Therefore it is possible (ie easy) to drive so all the slowing down is done by the flywheel and therefore you dont have to press on the brake. You press the accelerator and the car goes forward (sometimes very fast) and when you take your foot off it slows down. It is a bit different to a normal car but you get used to it in a few minutes. Its very like  a dogem car in a fun fair but a lot faster. It really makes it fun to drive. Very very responsive.

Not sure how its going to work on hard packed snow - under power no problem as it is 4 wheel drive - but not sure if the regen breaking will cause the wheels to lock! Never tried it.

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2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

For those who have never driven an EV. The car has brakes like every car which slow the car down when you press the brake pedal. The difference is that the car is also slowed down by the regen braking device - ie a flywheel type arrangement linked to a rather large alternator which generates power when slowing down. Therefore it is possible (ie easy) to drive so all the slowing down is done by the flywheel and therefore you dont have to press on the brake. You press the accelerator and the car goes forward (sometimes very fast) and when you take your foot off it slows down. It is a bit different to a normal car but you get used to it in a few minutes. Its very like  a dogem car in a fun fair but a lot faster. It really makes it fun to drive. Very very responsive.

Not sure how its going to work on hard packed snow - under power no problem as it is 4 wheel drive - but not sure if the regen breaking will cause the wheels to lock! Never tried it.

Flywheel? 

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24 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I thought that it's the electric motor on both mine 

Got it he copying Bizz with his wind up cars with a flywheel ?

Yes, motor acting as propulsion supplier or generator. ie the battery absorps power so is the elecric equivalent of flywheel

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12 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

I didn't know that, I assume they had a flywheel generator separate from propulsion motor? 

 

11 hours ago, peterboat said:

I have only ever seen motors as the generation if I am honest 

IIRC, it was in the late 70's (1978 I think), I was working for BP developing unsaturated polyester resins (the syrup that cure to make fibreglass - or GRP). We helped develop the first regen braking systems for buses. We developed the housing for a very fast spinning flywheel - up to 20,000rpm - which also contained the 'alternator'. It was put on buses in the early 80's. Dont know much else around what they did with the power. I guess the flywheel was to capture the initial braking power which would have been highest at the highest speed. By the end of the 80's, a lot of the buses had them.

The design of the regen unit housing was to protect against failure of a flywheel spinning at 20,000rpm. It was made with high glass content and resins similar to what we were supplying Vosper Thorneycroft for their manufacture of the 'plastic' minehunters.

Can we have another argument about GRP standing for glass reinforced polyester?

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8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

IIRC, it was in the late 70's (1978 I think), I was working for BP developing unsaturated polyester resins (the syrup that cure to make fibreglass - or GRP). We helped develop the first regen braking systems for buses. We developed the housing for a very fast spinning flywheel - up to 20,000rpm - which also contained the 'alternator'. It was put on buses in the early 80's. Dont know much else around what they did with the power. I guess the flywheel was to capture the initial braking power which would have been highest at the highest speed. By the end of the 80's, a lot of the buses had them.

The design of the regen unit housing was to protect against failure of a flywheel spinning at 20,000rpm. It was made with high glass content and resins similar to what we were supplying Vosper Thorneycroft for their manufacture of the 'plastic' minehunters.

Can we have another argument about GRP standing for glass reinforced polyester?

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2015/06/gkn-hybrid-power-flywheels-in-750-uk-buses/

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus

 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

IIRC, it was in the late 70's (1978 I think), I was working for BP developing unsaturated polyester resins (the syrup that cure to make fibreglass - or GRP). We helped develop the first regen braking systems for buses. We developed the housing for a very fast spinning flywheel - up to 20,000rpm - which also contained the 'alternator'. It was put on buses in the early 80's. Dont know much else around what they did with the power. I guess the flywheel was to capture the initial braking power which would have been highest at the highest speed. By the end of the 80's, a lot of the buses had them.

The design of the regen unit housing was to protect against failure of a flywheel spinning at 20,000rpm. It was made with high glass content and resins similar to what we were supplying Vosper Thorneycroft for their manufacture of the 'plastic' minehunters.

Can we have another argument about GRP standing for glass reinforced polyester?

In the 70s they wouldn't have a speed controller that could do the job of regeneration, nowadays they do so the motor is the generator. Its all about weight and fitting it in, so buses and lorries no problems cars not a chance 

Edited by peterboat
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On the Ampera (aka GM Volt) there are four drive modes selectable through a button on the control panel and five 'gear' modes selectable with the shift lever. The latter is just like an ordinary automatic car shift lever with P (park) R (reverse) N (neutral) D (drive) and L (low) but some of the functions are quite different from a conventional automatic - if 'N' is selected there is no power to the wheels and no regeneration but the electric motors are not completely disengaged which is why towing is not recommended. If 'D' is selected there is forward power to the wheels and a modest amount of re-gen. If 'L' is selected the amount of re-gen is multiplied significantly which is great for going down long hills and controlling the speed with one pedal operation - however it does not affect the available power, torque or gearing to the wheels so (where legally permitted) it is possible to reach 100mph in 'L'. I have to admit that driving in 'L' is reminiscent of driving a 'dodgem car'. The modes selectable from the control panel are 'Normal', 'Sport', 'Mountain', and 'Hold' - these are quite interesting: In 'Normal' the car runs on electricity from the battery until the usable battery capacity is depleted then the generator runs as required to keep the battery topped up to that level - the generator does not run continuously and it stops and starts as required - all controlled by the car's computers. As far as I know 'Sport' mode just makes the accelerator pedal more responsive - it isn't something that I have needed to use. In 'Mountain' mode, the generator will cut in when the traction battery capacity is less than 40% and runs as required to maintain battery capacity at just above that level. In 'Hold' mode, the generator runs to maintain the traction battery at whatever level it was at when the mode was selected - this is useful if taking a long journey because it makes it possible to save the battery for low speed manoeuvring and stop/start driving in a town or city if that is the final destination.

I have found that driving an electric car with a built in generator is a whole new driving experience and the economy is just amazing - even on very long journeys where the petrol generator is running for most of the time, I still get around 55 mpg largely due to re-gen . . .

Edited by NB Alnwick
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37 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Can we have another argument about GRP standing for glass reinforced polyester?

 

 

Not from me, but there will be many others saying it is - even Google has got it wrong.

 

 

GRP and Fibreglass Are the Same Thing

GRP stands for Glass Reinforced Plastic and is just another name for fibreglass. ... Regardless of where it's being used or what country you're in, the term GRP and fibreglass are both the same. You might also see the term “FRP” being used in some applications.

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8 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

On the Ampera (aka GM Volt) there are four drive modes selectable through a button on the control panel and five 'gear' modes selectable with the shift lever. The latter is just like an ordinary automatic car shift lever with P (park) R (reverse) N (neutral) D (drive) and L (low) but some of the functions are quite different from a conventional automatic - if 'N' is selected there is no power to the wheels and no regeneration but the electric motors are not completely disengaged which is why towing is not recommended. If 'D' is selected there is forward power to the wheels and a modest amount of re-gen. If 'L' is selected the amount of re-gen is multiplied significantly which is great for going down long hills and controlling the speed with one pedal operation - however it does not affect the available power, torque or gearing to the wheels so (where legally permitted) it is possible to reach 100mph in 'L'. I have to admit that driving in 'L' is reminiscent of driving a 'dodgem car'. The modes selectable from the control panel are 'Normal', 'Sport', 'Mountain', and 'Hold' - these are quite interesting: In 'Normal' the car runs on electricity from the battery until the usable battery capacity is depleted then the generator runs as required to keep the battery topped up to that level - the generator does not run continuously and it stops and starts as required - all controlled by the car's computers. As far as I know 'Sport' mode just makes the accelerator pedal more responsive - it isn't something that I have needed to use. In 'Mountain' mode, the generator will cut in when the traction battery capacity is less than 40% and runs as required to maintain battery capacity at just above that level. In 'Hold' mode, the generator runs to maintain the traction battery at whatever level it was at when the mode was selected - this is useful if taking a long journey because it makes it possible to save the battery for low speed manoeuvring and stop/start driving in a town or city if that is the final destination.

I have found that driving an electric car with a built in generator is a whole new driving experience and the economy is just amazing - even on very long journeys where the petrol generator is running for most of the time, I still get around 55 mpg largely due to re-gen . . .

Doesn't it have the over 65mph engine running in direct drive?

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Not from me, but there will be many others saying it is - even Google has got it wrong.

 

 

GRP and Fibreglass Are the Same Thing

GRP stands for Glass Reinforced Plastic and is just another name for fibreglass. ... Regardless of where it's being used or what country you're in, the term GRP and fibreglass are both the same. You might also see the term “FRP” being used in some applications.

Yep, google doesnt know what its talking about.  We use to make the bloody stuff! GRP is NOT plastic. It is a thermoset resin. The world however has decided it is. Sod the world.

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8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yep, google doesnt know what its talking about.  We use to make the bloody stuff! GRP is NOT plastic. It is a thermoset resin. The world however has decided it is. Sod the world.

 

 

Definition of plastic (for those in doubt)

 

A synthetic material made from a wide range of organic polymers such as polyethylene, PVC, nylon, etc., that can be moulded into shape while soft, and then set into a rigid or slightly elastic form.

 

Definition of thermosetting

 

A thermosetting polymer, resin, or plastic, often called a thermoset, is a polymer that is irreversibly hardened by curing from a soft solid or viscous liquid prepolymer or resin. Curing is induced by heat or suitable radiation and may be promoted by high pressure, or mixing with a catalyst.

 

As anyone who has worked in the 'plastics' industry knows.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Definition of plastic (for those in doubt)

 

A synthetic material made from a wide range of organic polymers such as polyethylene, PVC, nylon, etc., that can be moulded into shape while soft, and then set into a rigid or slightly elastic form.

 

Definition of thermosetting

 

A thermosetting polymer, resin, or plastic, often called a thermoset, is a polymer that is irreversibly hardened by curing from a soft solid or viscous liquid prepolymer or resin. Curing is induced by heat or suitable radiation and may be promoted by high pressure, or mixing with a catalyst.

 

As anyone who has worked in the 'plastics' industry knows.

Actually the plastic one needs another sentence - ie that the melting and moulding can be repeated ad nauseum. I say this as many thermosets can be melted and cured in a melt/mould operation that sounds like the plastic moulding process. As the definition says, that then is irreversible.

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

Actually the plastic one needs another sentence - ie that the melting and moulding can be repeated ad nauseum. I say this as many thermosets can be melted and cured in a melt/mould operation that sounds like the plastic moulding process. As the definition says, that then is irreversible.

 

 

Indeed, we used to regrind our Sprues and put them back into the system - the problem was that the product (Nylon) became brittle, even after conditioning if the percentage of regrind got too high.

 

 

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1 hour ago, NB Alnwick said:

On the Ampera (aka GM Volt) there are four drive modes selectable through a button on the control panel and five 'gear' modes selectable with the shift lever. The latter is just like an ordinary automatic car shift lever with P (park) R (reverse) N (neutral) D (drive) and L (low) but some of the functions are quite different from a conventional automatic - if 'N' is selected there is no power to the wheels and no regeneration but the electric motors are not completely disengaged which is why towing is not recommended. If 'D' is selected there is forward power to the wheels and a modest amount of re-gen. If 'L' is selected the amount of re-gen is multiplied significantly which is great for going down long hills and controlling the speed with one pedal operation - however it does not affect the available power, torque or gearing to the wheels so (where legally permitted) it is possible to reach 100mph in 'L'. I have to admit that driving in 'L' is reminiscent of driving a 'dodgem car'. The modes selectable from the control panel are 'Normal', 'Sport', 'Mountain', and 'Hold' - these are quite interesting: In 'Normal' the car runs on electricity from the battery until the usable battery capacity is depleted then the generator runs as required to keep the battery topped up to that level - the generator does not run continuously and it stops and starts as required - all controlled by the car's computers. As far as I know 'Sport' mode just makes the accelerator pedal more responsive - it isn't something that I have needed to use. In 'Mountain' mode, the generator will cut in when the traction battery capacity is less than 40% and runs as required to maintain battery capacity at just above that level. In 'Hold' mode, the generator runs to maintain the traction battery at whatever level it was at when the mode was selected - this is useful if taking a long journey because it makes it possible to save the battery for low speed manoeuvring and stop/start driving in a town or city if that is the final destination.

I have found that driving an electric car with a built in generator is a whole new driving experience and the economy is just amazing - even on very long journeys where the petrol generator is running for most of the time, I still get around 55 mpg largely due to re-gen . . .

Ampera is a weird and wonderful combination of gears and electronics, regarding 55mpg our i3 is similar when gen is running - ie 'hold state of charge' - between 45 and 65 mpg, over 70mph (depends on whether heater/lights etc is on) the gen loses out and battery starts to discharge, bigger engine would allow higher speed but would defeat purpose, no room anyway. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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54 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Doesn't it have the over 65mph engine running in direct drive?

 

I believe there is a certain road speed where the engine rpm and the output rpm from the electric motors is synchronised and that this is between 62 and 65 rpm - however I am not sure that this can properly be described as direct drive. I have tested this with the cruise control set at 65 mph and the ICE running - the sound of the ICE (which is barely discernable) does not change with gradient changes but the power meter shows changes in the amount of power being drawn from the traction battery. Added to which, GM stated that the car is always driven from the electric motors.

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7 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Ampera is a weird and wonderful combination of gears and electronics, regarding 55mpg our i3 is similar when gen is running - ie 'hold state of charge' - between 45 and 65 mpg, over 70mph (depends on whether heater/lights etc is on) the gen loses out and battery starts to discharge, bigger engine would allow higher speed but would defeat purpose, no room anyway. 

 

I believe the "range extender" is a sound concept and I couldn't understand why it didn't catch on - a possible reason being that the true EV converts would not enertain anything as dirty as an ICE in their vehicle. And almost everyone else is quite happy with an ICE without the electrickery. The benefit of the i3rex and the Ampera is that we can always charge at home with cheap electricity and never need to worry about range or having to pay and wait at public charging points . . .

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5 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

 

I believe the "range extender" is a sound concept and I couldn't understand why it didn't catch on - a possible reason being that the true EV converts would not enertain anything as dirty as an ICE in their vehicle. And almost everyone else is quite happy with an ICE without the electrickery. The benefit of the i3rex and the Ampera is that we can always charge at home with cheap electricity and never need to worry about range or having to pay and wait at public charging points . . .

I can see the objection to range extenders but really it's a bit of a fudge, the solution to small batteries, in the case of the i3 it's a pure BEV designed for city use with the option of an added RE to enable long journeys, Ampera is a pure hybrid, very useful but at the expense of mechanical complexity. 

 

Answer: Tesla! But at the expense of expense! 

 

ETA: i3 expensive due carbon fibre construction. 

Ampera expensive due to mechanical complexity. 

Surprised i3 didn't get ditched same as Ampera. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

I can see the objection to range extenders but really it's a bit of a fudge, the solution to small batteries, in the case of the i3 it's a pure BEV designed for city use with the option of an added RE to enable long journeys, Ampera is a pure hybrid, very useful but at the expense of mechanical complexity. 

 

Answer: Tesla! But at the expense of expense! 

 

ETA: i3 expensive due carbon fibre construction. 

Ampera expensive due to mechanical complexity. 

Surprised i3 didn't get ditched same as Ampera. 

I am sure the Ampera is a range extender  its problem for me is its small range on electric, it's a 16kwh battery that only uses 10kwh. If it had access to 14kwh it would be much better, however because of what they have done battery failures are non existent.

I am still looking for an I3 Rex fingers crossed for this week. We would prefer an Ampera but it's to big for Jaynes parking space at work!!!

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I am sure the Ampera is a range extender  its problem for me is its small range on electric, it's a 16kwh battery that only uses 10kwh. If it had access to 14kwh it would be much better, however because of what they have done battery failures are non existent.

I am still looking for an I3 Rex fingers crossed for this week. We would prefer an Ampera but it's to big for Jaynes parking space at work!!!

I prefer Ampera styling, close run thing but opted for i3, the CF body swung it for me, I was doubtful about Ampera small battery, we bought 94ah i3, it was my first EV drive and I was sold, never did try an Ampera. 

 

ETA: Only cloud on the horizon is future cessation of 3g which will make i3 unable to use the app. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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8 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

I prefer Ampera styling, close run thing but opted for i3, the CF body swung it for me, I was doubtful about Ampera small battery, we bought 94ah i3, it was my first EV drive and I was sold, never did try an Ampera. 

 

ETA: Only cloud on the horizon is future cessation of 3g which will make i3 unable to use the app. 

I found a good low mileage Ampera but the daughter assured me her need was greater than mine! I really want a model S but same as the Ampera its to big for Jaynes parking space. Until then we will continue our search for the right I3

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