Widebeam Length

[Bacchus]

43 minutes ago, dmr said:

I see quite a few widebeams with zero tumblehome and very narrow gunnels, plus cabins extending almost right to the front of the boat. Are these features part of the compromise to become VAT free? Having a boat that is ugly and not really suitable for boating is maybe a big price to pay in order to save a few bob (though quite a lot of bobs).

I think the VAT free thing was really aimed at static residential boats (but clever use of loopholes lets moving boats sort of squeeze in) so maybe its to be expected that these boats are not ideal for actual boating?

 

...............Dave

 

I think the vat rules that the widebeams slip into are for commercial vessels - there are separate rules for statics, basically to be a static it can't be suitable for conversion to a propelled boat in anyway - mounting an outboard to manoeuvre it in to position doesn't count, but if you could fit a tiller, an engine, or a sail you're a boat.

 

The link @Alan de Enfield provided goes through the calculations admirably.

 

I couldn't bring myself to give £10-14,000 to the VAT man to have a boat that was bigger and uglier than I wanted )c:

 

 

34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Guide To VAT Free / Exempt Widebeams | Canal Boats | Narrowboats (thefitoutpontoon.co.uk)

 

This one - gives a good explanation of the "loophole"

 

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

As you already realise that you need to move on a truck between north and south I believe your choice is sound. Widebeams are immeasureably nicer than narrow boats in every way. They handle better, are much  more stable and the comfort levels difference beggars belief. The only reason at all to buy a narrow beam is the poxy 7 fiit wide locks left for us by accountants two hundred plus years ago. If you need to travel extensively each year then it has to be narrow but if you want to do a couple of years or so between moves a wide beam is a no brainer. The main problem for many is the price. A useable narrow beam is available for 30k but a widebeam is not for instance.

 

This ∆∆∆∆∆∆ is spot on. Having lived on both narrow and widebeam boats I'd never go back to a narrowboat even if that meant giving up a life afloat. I don't like narrowboat dimensions - that's just a personal opinion.

 

I've cruised enough (considerately) on my widebeam over the last 15 years and it's never been a problem. Of course you can't go everywhere but you already know that and if you're considerate the only problems you'll have are from the detractors, most of whom rarely venture from the canals and have a rather blinkered view of boats in general. They'll complain if you move and get in their way but they'll also complain if you leave your boat in a marina and never move, even though that's what most narrowboaters do.

2 hours ago, Bacchus said:

The crazy VAT rules aren't helping with boat sizes - I recently enquired about a sailaway widebeam. As it will largely be only me, I felt that 50' x 10' would be a nice size, not too intimidating on the canals etc. BUT I would have had to pay VAT on a 50' x 10', which I wouldn't on a 60 x 12'6", making the smaller boat more expensive.

 

60'x12'6" is crazy big for a single person, and, as above, impractical for many of even the wide canals, so back to the drawing board.

 

I'd forget about the VAT rules if I were you. I know it's a lot of money but unless it's changed in the last 10 years or so since I read and understood the rules, it's extremely difficult to satisfy the rules despite what some builders or brokers might tell you. 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I see quite a few widebeams with zero tumblehome and very narrow gunnels, plus cabins extending almost right to the front of the boat. Are these features part of the compromise to become VAT free? Having a boat that is ugly and not really suitable for boating is maybe a big price to pay in order to save a few bob (though quite a lot of bobs).

I think the VAT free thing was really aimed at static residential boats (but clever use of loopholes lets moving boats sort of squeeze in) so maybe its to be expected that these boats are not ideal for actual boating?

 

...............Dave

When I looked at the rules or was all about deck height, which was almost unachievable unless the boat was built to one off bespoke dimensions, but perhaps these skinny and unusable gunwales don't qualify as decks so the roof becomes the deck as far as the VAT rules are concerned? I really don't know.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Bacchus said:

 

I think the vat rules that the widebeams slip into are for commercial vessels - there are separate rules for statics, basically to be a static it can't be suitable for conversion to a propelled boat in anyway - mounting an outboard to manoeuvre it in to position doesn't count, but if you could fit a tiller, an engine, or a sail you're a boat.

 

The link @Alan de Enfield provided goes through the calculations admirably.

 

I couldn't bring myself to give £10-14,000 to the VAT man to have a boat that was bigger and uglier than I wanted )c:

 

 

 

This one - gives a good explanation of the "loophole"

 

 

It seems the VAT rules are still the same as when I last looked. When you read that gross tonnage has to be greater than 15 tonnes it makes you think that your boat is bound to qualify, but the calculation is multiplied by 0.16 which then reduces the result to under 15 tonnes for most widebeams.

[sueb]

Our two bedroom bungalow is perfectly comfortable at 14' x 40' . 

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, sueb said:

Our two bedroom bungalow is perfectly comfortable at 14' x 40' . 

On wheels?

[dmr]

44 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

On wheels?

If we ever have to move back to the land I have contemplated building a small house based on a 70 foot narrowboat, keeping the internal dimensions the same but going just a bit wider and taller to use bricks and lots of insulation.  It could maybe even have a little secret basement.

 

................Dave

[enigmatic]

57 minutes ago, dmr said:

It could maybe even have a little secret basement.

Full of water, stern gland grease and shopping trolleys? 

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Full of water, stern gland grease and shopping trolleys? 

Naah, I'd just fill it full of old paving slabs, with a little spot for bottles of wine. ?

[mrsmelly]

13 hours ago, sueb said:

Our two bedroom bungalow is perfectly comfortable at 14' x 40' . 

But its stuck in one place for ever!!

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But its stuck in one place for ever!!

Cant you drop the ropes and sailaway?n How horrible condemded to live in the same place forever

[mrsmelly]

Just now, peterboat said:

Cant you drop the ropes and sailaway?n How horrible condemded to live in the same place forever

Precisely my problem at the present time!! I am looking at various houses all in lovely locations due to diminishing health. The more I look, the more depressing the thought is!! 

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Precisely my problem at the present time!! I am looking at various houses all in lovely locations due to diminishing health. The more I look, the more depressing the thought is!! 

Tim buy a widebeam again and put in in a widebeam location with good healthcare

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Tim buy a widebeam again and put in in a widebeam location with good healthcare

Weve been looking old bean ?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 hours ago, sueb said:

Our two bedroom bungalow is perfectly comfortable at 14' x 40' . 

We moved my Father into a 40' x 20' 'Lodge'.

This is on wheels so if he /we ever decide to move him, you unscrew the 2-halves, load it on a truck and relocate him anywhere in the world.

[Martin Stanford]

23 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

It seems the VAT rules are still the same as when I last looked. When you read that gross tonnage has to be greater than 15 tonnes it makes you think that your boat is bound to qualify, but the calculation is multiplied by 0.16 which then reduces the result to under 15 tonnes for most widebeams.

Thank you, that’s something I need to consider.

23 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

This ∆∆∆∆∆∆ is spot on. Having lived on both narrow and widebeam boats I'd never go back to a narrowboat even if that meant giving up a life afloat. I don't like narrowboat dimensions - that's just a personal opinion.

 

I've cruised enough (considerately) on my widebeam over the last 15 years and it's never been a problem. Of course you can't go everywhere but you already know that and if you're considerate the only problems you'll have are from the detractors, most of whom rarely venture from the canals and have a rather blinkered view of boats in general. They'll complain if you move and get in their way but they'll also complain if you leave your boat in a marina and never move, even though that's what most narrowboaters do.

 

I'd forget about the VAT rules if I were you. I know it's a lot of money but unless it's changed in the last 10 years or so since I read and understood the rules, it's extremely difficult to satisfy the rules despite what some builders or brokers might tell you. 

Thank you guys, that’s a very re-assuring post. 

On 15/12/2020 at 11:28, Jen-in-Wellies said:

57'6" max length in a broad beam if you want to navigate the Rochdale and Huddersfield Broad canals, and you really should! Less than 14' wide is good as some locks that used to take up to 14' have got squeezed in a bit over the years.

Either a lift out, or a tidal passage from Avonmouth to Sharpness will get you access to the Gloucester and Sharpness canal and Severn and Avon rivers. Another across the Wash, once you are in the north will give you the east Anglian waterways.

Jen

Thank you Jen

[Martin Stanford]

On 15/12/2020 at 11:59, peterboat said:

Mine is 57 x 12 and I consider this the ideal size for the northern waterways, as yet I have always been able to get through any locks I have encountered. I do have a wheelhouse as well which is more likely to be a problem than anything else. Enjoy yourself looking for a boat and dont be put off by negative comments

Thank you, food for thought there 

[sueb]

10 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

But its stuck in one place for ever!!

Boats don't need to be larger to be comfortable to live in. Unfortunately we don't have the choice with an immobile husband. 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, sueb said:

Boats don't need to be larger to be comfortable to live in. Unfortunately we don't have the choice with an immobile husband. 

Yes Sue I know your position is not by choice ?