Electric heating

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

I live aboard on a 45' widebeam and have chosen not to resurrect the old deisel Bubble stove my boat came with? (would need an overhaul - and not keen on the atmospheric emissions either!). Can anyone advise on efficient, portable (preferably) and inexpensive cabin heaters? (Stressing efficient!) Be grateful for some pointers. Many thanks

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

I live aboard on a 45' widebeam and have chosen not to resurrect the old deisel Bubble stove my boat came with? (would need an overhaul - and not keen on the atmospheric emissions either!). Can anyone advise on efficient, portable (preferably) and inexpensive cabin heaters? (Stressing efficient!) Be grateful for some pointers. Many thanks

Are you on a constant shore supply of at least 30 Amps?

 

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

Hi, yes I am - I have a 16 amp hookup socket on my boat though - not sure how this affects things (elecs really arent my thing). I ran 2 x 2500W oil radiators last winter (at lowest setting, so 2x1000W, and the bills nearly killed me!

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Hi, yes I am - I have a 16 amp hookup socket on my boat though - not sure how this affects things (elecs really arent my thing). I ran 2 x 2500W oil radiators last winter (at lowest setting, so 2x1000W, and the bills nearly killed me!

Multi fuel stove is by FAR the best way to go. I would start worrying about emissions when people stop flying all over the World burning millions of tons of fossil fuel which they are already again starting to do.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Hi, yes I am - I have a 16 amp hookup socket on my boat though - not sure how this affects things (elecs really arent my thing). I ran 2 x 2500W oil radiators last winter (at lowest setting, so 2x1000W, and the bills nearly killed me!

So 2kw gave you big bills.

Have you got a solid fuel stove, or an eberspacher diesel heater both are around 5Kw and will be cheaper to run than electric heating.

 

[matty40s]

52 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Are you on a constant shore supply of at least 30 Amps?

 

 

10 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Hi, yes I am - I have a 16 amp hookup socket.....

?

 

Electric heating on a boat is NOT sensible for anything other than occasional blasts or frost heaters to prevent icing.

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So 2kw gave you big bills.

Have you got a solid fuel stove, or an eberspacher diesel heater both are around 5Kw and will be cheaper to run than electric heating.

 

I have a deisel fired Bubble (Trademark) stove, in need of complete overhaul possibly. Currently no budget for this, even if wanted this route?

 

[Naughty Cal]

There is no such thing as more efficient electric heating. 1kWh is 1 kWh.

 

Diesel heating or solid fuel will be your best options.

 

You can buy cheap chinese copy blown air diesel heaters from Ebay for not a lot of money. Several boats on our pontoon run them and are very happy with them.

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

 

?

 

Electric heating on a boat is NOT sensible for anything other than occasional blasts or frost heaters to prevent icing.

Ok I'm listening! Re Eberspacher - know anything about the smaller models?

1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

There is no such thing as more efficient electric heating. 1kWh is 1 kWh.

 

Diesel heating or solid fuel will be your best options.

 

You can buy cheap chinese copy blown air diesel heaters from Ebay for not a lot of money. Several boats on our pontoon run them and are very happy with them.

Good to know - thank you

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Ok I'm listening! Re Eberspacher - know anything about the smaller models?

Yes,

But why do you want a smaller model, if you get a 2kw or 3kw then it will be running 24/7 in cold weather and burn more fuel than a 5Kw only on 12 hours a day.

 

I have an 8Kw Eberspacher which keeps us cozy.

 

It will be false economy to try and save money by buying a small one when you need one 'suitable'.

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

5 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

There is no such thing as more efficient electric heating. 1kWh is 1 kWh.

 

Diesel heating or solid fuel will be your best options.

 

You can buy cheap chinese copy blown air diesel heaters from Ebay for not a lot of money. Several boats on our pontoon run them and are very happy with them.

Naughty Cal - would you be able to do me a massive favour? and find out exactly what they're using some time? Could you ask if they find them noisy? / smelly? How they tend to use them?

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes,

But why do you want a smaller model, if you get a 2kw or 3kw then it will be running 24/7 in cold weather and burn more fuel than a 5Kw only on 12 hours a day.

 

I have an 8Kw Eberspacher which keeps us cozy.

 

It will be false economy to try and save money by buying a small one when you need one 'suitable'.

Thanks Alan. Sound advice.

 

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

You can buy cheap chinese copy blown air diesel heaters from Ebay for not a lot of money. Several boats on our pontoon run them and are very happy with them.

 

I don't think even the larger 5kW size would be enough space heating on a 45' widebeam.  Great for smaller boats though.

 

11 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

I have a deisel fired Bubble (Trademark) stove, in need of complete overhaul possibly. Currently no budget for this, even if wanted this route?

 

 

Post some internal and external pictures of the Bubble stove.  There are quite a few on here who have them and we might be able to tell you what needs fixing and how difficult/expensive it's likely to be.

 

If it's not been serviced correctly it might be making more smoke than it should, and might burn a lot cleaner if you can clean and adjust it yourself without spending much on it.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I don't think even the larger 5kW size would be enough space heating on a 45' widebeam.  Great for smaller boats though.

 

True - I misssed the fact it was a 'fatty'

 

Our boat is a 'fatty' and our 8Kw Eberspacher does a great job. It is switched on when we go on board and not switched off until we leave. It happily sits for months on end on just the thermostat.

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I don't think even the larger 5kW size would be enough space heating on a 45' widebeam.  Great for smaller boats though.

 

 

Post some internal and external pictures of the Bubble stove.  There are quite a few on here who have them and we might be able to tell you what needs fixing and how difficult/expensive it's likely to be.

 

If it's not been serviced correctly it might be making more smoke than it should, and might burn a lot cleaner if you can clean and adjust it yourself without spending much on it.

Looked into getting it serviced after I bought boat last year- called manufacturer as finding it impossible to get a Bubble savvy engineer in my area to come out (Suffolk). Told Manufacturer  it had been run for years disconnected from its backboiler and they had a fit! ("could be dangerous to run"). So gave up on it for now thinking would cost several hundreds to service and check (importing an engineer too), with no guarantee of a clean bill of health at end of it. So haven't dealt with it yet (with the idea electric would be better for the envirnonment too? But reading these replies see it may just not be viable on a full time ocuppied 45' boat!

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

True - I misssed the fact it was a 'fatty'

 

Our boat is a 'fatty' and our 8Kw Eberspacher does a great job. It is switched on when we go on board and not switched off until we leave. It happily sits for months on end on just the thermostat.

I see a plan shaping up

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

I see a plan shaping up

 

If your budget doesn't stretch to fixing the Bubble you are going to faint at the installed price of an 8kW Eberspacher!

[mrsmelly]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

If your budget doesn't stretch to fixing the Bubble you are going to faint at the installed price of an 8kW Eberspacher!

Yep. A used solid fuel stove would be the cheapest option. 

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yep. A used solid fuel stove would be the cheapest option. 

 

I think servicing the already installed Bubble should be quite a bit cheaper than installing a solid fuel stove if it's not knackered.

 

Admittedly OP could sell the Bubble (in working order for best price) to pay for the new stove.

[ditchcrawler]

The reason I asked the supply size is the title is electric heating, you aren't going to heat a boat in deep winter wit a 3Kw oil filled radiator. The price you are paying for your electricity should be fixed at what the person selling it to you buys it for. so other than burning wood etc that you scavenge you  probably wont find cheaper Kw for Kw as its 100% efficient at point of use

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

22 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

If your budget doesn't stretch to fixing the Bubble you are going to faint at the installed price of an 8kW Eberspacher!

Thought that might be the case! Might talk to Bubble again, get some idea of ££s to test / fix ...  And look at Chinese 'eberspachers'!

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Thought that might be the case! Might talk to Bubble again, get some idea of ££s to test / fix ...  And look at Chinese 'eberspachers'!

What is in a Bubble to go wrong that could cost a lot of money, I thought they were basically a float, metering valve and natural draft burner pot, but that is just what I thought, I could be completely wrong

 

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The reason I asked the supply size is the title is electric heating, you aren't going to heat a boat in deep winter wit a 3Kw oil filled radiator. The price you are paying for your electricity should be fixed at what the person selling it to you buys it for. so other than burning wood etc that you scavenge you  probably wont find cheaper Kw for Kw as its 100% efficient at point of use

Thanks Brian.

Hope I'm getting this right: electric is efficient as heating gets? But that even 2 X 2500W elec heaters won't hack it? (you don't need to convince me). So get more electric heaters or a c8KW eberspacher?! The table is v interesting, but uncosted (which realise fluctuates) ..... Are we basically going to settle on fact that a KW fo heat probably costs the same whatever the fuel?

 

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is in a Bubble to go wrong that could cost a lot of money, I thought they were basically a float, metering valve and natural draft burner pot, but that is just what I thought, I could be completely wrong

 

... the makers talked about possible cracks in the unit from overheating (due to running disconnected from the backboiler and radiators .... I should talk to them again ....

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Are we basically going to settle on fact that a KW fo heat probably costs the same whatever the fuel?

 

Not at all.  If you could get 10kWh of electricity for the price of a litre of red diesel you'd be less concerned about the electric bill.

 

I suspect you'll be paying slightly more than twice as much for the electricity (15p/kWh against 70p/l for domestic red diesel)

 

Usual prices for natural gas (to a house) work out around a third of the price of electricity per kWh.

 

Manufactured smokeless fuels are around 5kWh per kg, and I pay around £8 for 20kg bags, so again around half the price per kWh of electricity.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The reason I asked the supply size is the title is electric heating, you aren't going to heat a boat in deep winter wit a 3Kw oil filled radiator. The price you are paying for your electricity should be fixed at what the person selling it to you buys it for. so other than burning wood etc that you scavenge you  probably wont find cheaper Kw for Kw as its 100% efficient at point of use

 

The problem with that table is a mix of units (kilogram, cubic metre and litres)

 

Talking it down to a single unit here is some work I did for a camping forum :

 

 

Hexamine = 8 Wh / gram

Chafing Gel = 7.44 Wh / gram

Propane LPG = 13.6Wh / gram

Mixed Camping Gas = 14.2 Wh / gram

Seasoned Dry Wood = 4.2 Wh / gram

Methylated Spirit = 7.22 Wh/Gram

Petrol / Diesel = 12.5Wh / gram

Anthracite = 8.6 Wh / gram   Propane gas gives approximately 3x the heat output of wood, a tad more than diesel and about 60% more than Anthracite.   You need to look at the cost vs convenience vs heat output for each.   For me Diesel comes out as the most convenient - you already have a 'huge' tank of it onboard, its relatively cheap and produces a lot of heat.   Actual cost comparisons (not taking into account convenience and access to supplies on the waterways can be found here :   https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/   "Gas-Oil" is diesel.   Energy Cost Comparison – April 2020 Fuel Fuel price (p per unit) Unit Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency) Energy content (kWh per unit) CO2e emissions per kWh* Electricity Standard Rate1 20.59 kWh 20.59 (100%) 1 0.316 Electricity Online Rate1 20.78 kWh 20.78 (100%) 1 0.316 Mains Gas Standard Rate2 4.02 kWh 4.47 (90%) 1 0.208 Mains Gas Online Rate2 4.28 kWh 4.75 (90%) 1 0.208 Kerosene3 28.91 Litre 3.28 (90%) 9.8 0.298 Gas oil4 51.61 Litre 5.51 (90%) 10.4 0.316 LPG5 41.46 Litre 6.92 (90%) 6.66 0.241 Butane6 167.99 Litre 23.42 (90%) 7.97 0.241 Propane7 74.24 Litre 11.67 (90%) 7.07 0.241 Seasoned Wood8 23.76 Kg 6.66 (85%) 4.20 0.028 Pellets9 26.39 Kg 6.21 (90%) 4.72 0.053 Smokeless fuel10 43.13 Kg 8.58 (75%) 6.7 0.394 Coal10 31.72 Kg 6.18 (75%) 6.85 0.394 GSHP11 20.59 kWh 5.88 (350%) 1 0.090 ASHP11 20.78 kWh 7.70 (270%) 1 0.117 *C02e emissions are based on UK Government GHG Conversion Factors for Company Reporting Scope 3, which includes emissions from Transmission and Distribution

[Tracy D'arth]

18 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

So get more electric heaters

Consider how you can power them, every kw is 4 amps approx, you have at best a 16 Amp supply in a marina. that is 4kw. More you cannot power.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Tracy D'arth