Electric heating

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Consider how you can power them, every kw is 4 amps approx, you have at best a 16 Amp supply in a marina. that is 4kw. More you cannot power.

And, once you have taken the fridge, freezer, TV, battery charger, computer, phone charger etc etc etc you have even further restricted what you can use.

 

Diesel is the cheapest per Kwh

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And, once you have taken the fridge, freezer, TV, battery charger, computer, phone charger etc etc etc you have even further restricted what you can use.

 

Diesel is the cheapest per Kwh

Even when we have to pay road diesel prices? Probably plus a bit to get it canal side.

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Even when we have to pay road diesel prices? Probably plus a bit to get it canal side.

 

Heating diesel will still be permitted in a separate tank, but you might need to find another supplier.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Heating diesel will still be permitted in a separate tank, but you might need to find another supplier.

I know but the OP seems short of money so could he afford a separate tank? Being fat boat he probably has space but then there is the question about how much red diesel will be available canal side. i think he may soon get fed up with bringing the red in 25 litre cans and decanting them.

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I know but the OP seems short of money so could he afford a separate tank? Being fat boat he probably has space but then there is the question about how much red diesel will be available canal side. i think he may soon get fed up with bringing the red in 25 litre cans and decanting them.

We will all very soon get fed up with doing that.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Even when we have to pay road diesel prices? Probably plus a bit to get it canal side.

The proposal is that you can buy 'white' at rebated prices on a 60/40 declaration so there will be very little difference between the current prices and the 'new prices' (unless canal side sellers have to put in loads of new infrastructure to prevent theft.

 

The user who has been declaring 100% domestic and then cruising (the ones who have been cheating the system) are the ones who will notice the difference in pricing.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The problem with that table is a mix of units (kilogram, cubic metre and litres)

 

Talking it down to a single unit here is some work I did for a camping forum :

 

 

Hexamine = 8 Wh / gram

Chafing Gel = 7.44 Wh / gram

Propane LPG = 13.6Wh / gram

Mixed Camping Gas = 14.2 Wh / gram

Seasoned Dry Wood = 4.2 Wh / gram

Methylated Spirit = 7.22 Wh/Gram

Petrol / Diesel = 12.5Wh / gram

Anthracite = 8.6 Wh / gram   Propane gas gives approximately 3x the heat output of wood, a tad more than diesel and about 60% more than Anthracite.   You need to look at the cost vs convenience vs heat output for each.   For me Diesel comes out as the most convenient - you already have a 'huge' tank of it onboard, its relatively cheap and produces a lot of heat.   Actual cost comparisons (not taking into account convenience and access to supplies on the waterways can be found here :   https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/   "Gas-Oil" is diesel.   Energy Cost Comparison – April 2020 Fuel Fuel price (p per unit) Unit Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency) Energy content (kWh per unit) CO2e emissions per kWh* Electricity Standard Rate1 20.59 kWh 20.59 (100%) 1 0.316 Electricity Online Rate1 20.78 kWh 20.78 (100%) 1 0.316 Mains Gas Standard Rate2 4.02 kWh 4.47 (90%) 1 0.208 Mains Gas Online Rate2 4.28 kWh 4.75 (90%) 1 0.208 Kerosene3 28.91 Litre 3.28 (90%) 9.8 0.298 Gas oil4 51.61 Litre 5.51 (90%) 10.4 0.316 LPG5 41.46 Litre 6.92 (90%) 6.66 0.241 Butane6 167.99 Litre 23.42 (90%) 7.97 0.241 Propane7 74.24 Litre 11.67 (90%) 7.07 0.241 Seasoned Wood8 23.76 Kg 6.66 (85%) 4.20 0.028 Pellets9 26.39 Kg 6.21 (90%) 4.72 0.053 Smokeless fuel10 43.13 Kg 8.58 (75%) 6.7 0.394 Coal10 31.72 Kg 6.18 (75%) 6.85 0.394 GSHP11 20.59 kWh 5.88 (350%) 1 0.090 ASHP11 20.78 kWh 7.70 (270%) 1 0.117 *C02e emissions are based on UK Government GHG Conversion Factors for Company Reporting Scope 3, which includes emissions from Transmission and Distribution

But would a boiler on a boat come near 90% efficient 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 i think he may soon get fed up with bringing the red in 25 litre cans and decanting them.

Even that may be a problem, who buys diesel in cans and who will still be able to when the regs change, Farmers don't they get it in bulk

[Naughty Cal]

16 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I don't think even the larger 5kW size would be enough space heating on a 45' widebeam.  Great for smaller boats though.

 

 

Post some internal and external pictures of the Bubble stove.  There are quite a few on here who have them and we might be able to tell you what needs fixing and how difficult/expensive it's likely to be.

 

If it's not been serviced correctly it might be making more smoke than it should, and might burn a lot cleaner if you can clean and adjust it yourself without spending much on it.

The 5kw units are more than adequate for dutch steel boats at about 40 ft x 12ft. If it isn't quite up to the job then fit another as a back up for £130 a unit!

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

18 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Not at all.  If you could get 10kWh of electricity for the price of a litre of red diesel you'd be less concerned about the electric bill.

 

I suspect you'll be paying slightly more than twice as much for the electricity (15p/kWh against 70p/l for domestic red diesel)

 

Usual prices for natural gas (to a house) work out around a third of the price of electricity per kWh.

 

Manufactured smokeless fuels are around 5kWh per kg, and I pay around £8 for 20kg bags, so again around half the price per kWh of electricity.

Cheers for this - v useful

 

18 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Consider how you can power them, every kw is 4 amps approx, you have at best a 16 Amp supply in a marina. that is 4kw. More you cannot power.

More useful stuff - thank you.

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The problem with that table is a mix of units (kilogram, cubic metre and litres)

 

Talking it down to a single unit here is some work I did for a camping forum :

 

 

Hexamine = 8 Wh / gram

Chafing Gel = 7.44 Wh / gram

Propane LPG = 13.6Wh / gram

Mixed Camping Gas = 14.2 Wh / gram

Seasoned Dry Wood = 4.2 Wh / gram

Methylated Spirit = 7.22 Wh/Gram

Petrol / Diesel = 12.5Wh / gram

Anthracite = 8.6 Wh / gram   Propane gas gives approximately 3x the heat output of wood, a tad more than diesel and about 60% more than Anthracite.   You need to look at the cost vs convenience vs heat output for each.   For me Diesel comes out as the most convenient - you already have a 'huge' tank of it onboard, its relatively cheap and produces a lot of heat.   Actual cost comparisons (not taking into account convenience and access to supplies on the waterways can be found here :   https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/   "Gas-Oil" is diesel.   Energy Cost Comparison – April 2020 Fuel Fuel price (p per unit) Unit Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency) Energy content (kWh per unit) CO2e emissions per kWh* Electricity Standard Rate1 20.59 kWh 20.59 (100%) 1 0.316 Electricity Online Rate1 20.78 kWh 20.78 (100%) 1 0.316 Mains Gas Standard Rate2 4.02 kWh 4.47 (90%) 1 0.208 Mains Gas Online Rate2 4.28 kWh 4.75 (90%) 1 0.208 Kerosene3 28.91 Litre 3.28 (90%) 9.8 0.298 Gas oil4 51.61 Litre 5.51 (90%) 10.4 0.316 LPG5 41.46 Litre 6.92 (90%) 6.66 0.241 Butane6 167.99 Litre 23.42 (90%) 7.97 0.241 Propane7 74.24 Litre 11.67 (90%) 7.07 0.241 Seasoned Wood8 23.76 Kg 6.66 (85%) 4.20 0.028 Pellets9 26.39 Kg 6.21 (90%) 4.72 0.053 Smokeless fuel10 43.13 Kg 8.58 (75%) 6.7 0.394 Coal10 31.72 Kg 6.18 (75%) 6.85 0.394 GSHP11 20.59 kWh 5.88 (350%) 1 0.090 ASHP11 20.78 kWh 7.70 (270%) 1 0.117 *C02e emissions are based on UK Government GHG Conversion Factors for Company Reporting Scope 3, which includes emissions from Transmission and Distribution

Great contribution! Appreciate it. Almost certainly going for a Eberspacher-type deisel unit, I know someone qualified to fit it to. And you're right, the convenience of sitting on a huge tank of deisel can't be ignored!

[Naughty Cal]

26 minutes ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Great contribution! Appreciate it. Almost certainly going for a Eberspacher-type deisel unit, I know someone qualified to fit it to. And you're right, the convenience of sitting on a huge tank of deisel can't be ignored!

I thought you couldn't afford to fix the old heater?

 

A new Ebersplutter is almost certainly going to cost more than fixing the old heater unit.

[Murflynn]

20 hours ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

 Told Manufacturer  it had been run for years disconnected from its backboiler and they had a fit!

seems unlikely to be a difficult fix - surely this depends on the layout of the firebricks and baffles, or whatever, that are fitted inside the combustion space.  In the case of a solid fuel Morco AFAIK there were alternative bricks and baffle plates depending on whether a back boiler is used or not.

[Mark Tunnicliffe]

43 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I thought you couldn't afford to fix the old heater?

 

A new Ebersplutter is almost certainly going to cost more than fixing the old heater unit.

Told by more than one informed source (including stove maker) it would cost more than £200 to get the Bubble qualified engineer to drive out and visit me in the wilds of Suffolk. This is not canal boat country! Then would cme the cost of inspecting / testing and any repairs (including potential need to replace unity entirely, according to Bubble. Don't fancy sitting on a potential timebomb stove)... Ohter makes of retro engineered eberspacher type heaters are a small fraction of cost of actual eberspacher. I know a fitter. Recommendations for these are easy to come by, so if they're happy, I;m happy! But aprreciate everyone's adice - it's been helpful ...

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Told by more than one informed source (including stove maker) it would cost more than £200 to get the Bubble qualified engineer to drive out and visit me in the wilds of Suffolk. This is not canal boat country! Then would cme the cost of inspecting / testing and any repairs (including potential need to replace unity entirely, according to Bubble. Don't fancy sitting on a potential timebomb stove)... Ohter makes of retro engineered eberspacher type heaters are a small fraction of cost of actual eberspacher. I know a fitter. Recommendations for these are easy to come by, so if they're happy, I;m happy! But aprreciate everyone's adice - it's been helpful ...

Bubble stoves are not uncommon on fishing boats, is there no agent in Yarmouth or Lowestoft ?

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, Mark Tunnicliffe said:

Told by more than one informed source (including stove maker) it would cost more than £200 to get the Bubble qualified engineer to drive out and visit me in the wilds of Suffolk. This is not canal boat country! Then would cme the cost of inspecting / testing and any repairs (including potential need to replace unity entirely, according to Bubble. Don't fancy sitting on a potential timebomb stove)... Ohter makes of retro engineered eberspacher type heaters are a small fraction of cost of actual eberspacher. I know a fitter. Recommendations for these are easy to come by, so if they're happy, I;m happy! But aprreciate everyone's adice - it's been helpful ...

Beware, recon heater will likely be a lorry one, NOT SUITABLE ON A BOAT !

Exhaust is wrong one, has a drain hole in it [ can kill you ] and the cut off battery voltage is different.

[Chewbacka]

As nobody else has mentioned yet, the best way to reduce heating costs is to reduce heat loss, so whilst still maintaining a sensible level of ventilation ensuring you don’t get strong draughts around doors and windows, and the cabin sides and roof have reasonable levels of insulation could be money well spent if rectified.