engines Beta or Canaline???

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Loads of boats are already fitted with pre heaters😉

They are used to run the central heating instead of heating the engine.

 

And badly set up ones do both

[Lifeboat Elsie May]

1 minute ago, GUMPY said:

You miss the point by a country mile.

Eberspacher, Webasto and other heaters of that ilk were originally developed as pre heaters for engines using the engines cooling system, usually used in cold countries in the winter. Its only recently that they have been used on boats  for central heating.

Yes I looked at some pre heat kits, but it struck me as a good way to start a coolent leak unless one is made for the diesel concerned. Not such an issue if installed when the engine is built. If the engine bay is well insulated you can use a fairly small heater to warm the engine up. 

[GUMPY]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And badly set up ones do both

Indeed, the engine on Loddon warms slightly when the Eber is on if you don't turn off the calorifier feed from the engine.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats easy, you power it from the batteries then run on tickover for 4 hours to recharge them

I am surprised you haven't mentioned pre lub pumps to get oil circulation into all moving parts prior to starting

 

Is pre-lube significant on modern smaller engines? An oil film is strong and some old engines don't even have an oil pump. So the pump is probably only needed to get the oil to the right places rather than to provide a load supporting pressure? Enough oil should hang around in the engine to support initial start up. Oil is very good at clinging on to things.

My case is a little different, the JD3 has an upside down filter that drains down so the oil pressure takes ages to come up on starting. The initial rattle is quite audible. Deere must think this is ok but as Beta run at a much lower idle speed than Deere intended then maybe its not ok in this application? I briefly looked at pre-lube but did not fancy all the extra pipework and associated risk. Instead I managed to find an oil filter with an anti drainback valve and now the pressure comes up within about 1/2 second.

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

You miss the point by a country mile.

Eberspacher, Webasto and other heaters of that ilk were originally developed as pre heaters for engines using the engines cooling system, usually used in cold countries in the winter. Its only recently that they have been used on boats  for central heating.

I thought they were a standard hit in a Volvo in Scandinavian countries 

[dmr]

Another issue is that many boaters are old men who will be dead before the engine wears out  😀 so extending an already good engine life is not top priority.

and for the younger boaters, the goverment is likely to ban your engine before it wears out.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

29 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Is pre-lube significant on modern smaller engines? An oil film is strong and some old engines don't even have an oil pump. So the pump is probably only needed to get the oil to the right places rather than to provide a load supporting pressure? Enough oil should hang around in the engine to support initial start up. Oil is very good at clinging on to things.

My case is a little different, the JD3 has an upside down filter that drains down so the oil pressure takes ages to come up on starting. The initial rattle is quite audible. Deere must think this is ok but as Beta run at a much lower idle speed than Deere intended then maybe its not ok in this application? I briefly looked at pre-lube but did not fancy all the extra pipework and associated risk. Instead I managed to find an oil filter with an anti drainback valve and now the pressure comes up within about 1/2 second.

 Does the OEM filter not include the anti drain back valve?

This problem with upside down filters caused failures in Rover 2000 and GM Vauxhall sloper engines where the cam would actually seize and snap the belt when starting.

[Tony Brooks]

30 minutes ago, dmr said:

An oil film is strong and some old engines don't even have an oil pump. So the pump is probably only needed to get the oil to the right places rather than to provide a load supporting pressure?

 

Absolutely correct. The crank shaft journals rotating in the bearing build up a high pressure wedge of oil that supports the load.

 

If anyone remembers the two bearing crank Austin engines, an oil pressure that was too high tended to suggest worn main bearings because the oil "wedge" tended to leak into the oil gallery.

[dmr]

18 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 Does the OEM filter not include the anti drain back valve?

This problem with upside down filters caused failures in Rover 2000 and GM Vauxhall sloper engines where the cam would actually seize and snap the belt when starting.

No ADBV in the standard OEM filter. I found an equivalent filter from by a Tractor supplier and this does include the valve. I wonder if this was a mistake or a plan. Only trouble with an upsidedown filter and an ADBV is a very black and messy filter change.  😀

 

The filter does have a bypass valve which is interesting as it sits on an oil cooler that also appears to have a bypass valve, and possibly yet another one inside the engine.

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

I thought they were a standard hit in a Volvo in Scandinavian countries 

I believe they are. Thirty years ago I had a Volvo diesel heater in my old springer.

Struggled to get it to work!

[dmr]

5 hours ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Yes I am interested in learning more about canal boats, as the boat I'm building did go along some of the Scottish canals. I think my boats 8ft odd beam would be too much for the canals down South. Coolant pre heaters are great as they allow you to just jump in a boat or truck and go. 

  The real issue is when an error is made by opening the throotle too far to help the cold engine start and not being fast enough to close it back towards idle as the engine starts, then is when the real harm is done even with a multi grade. Also it results in additional mostly Carbon related deposits, particularly if the glow plugs are not on for long enough. 

  Oddly enough although modern multigrades help reduce cold start wear, it's the anti wear additives that protect the engine for a few seconds when cold starting even with an 0W30, so using cheap oil that lacks them in many cases makes a cold start more significant. I would note that you defo can't use too low a viscosity oil in some engines that use engine oil in the gearbox. So it's a matter of checking the owners manual. 

  Either way I really hate cold starting a diesel too often, so like any system that can raise the oil and preferably block temperture. Heating the oil will do that but takes longer. 

  

 

 

  

 

 

Again this is complicated. Many people say its good to get a diesel on load as soon as possible, just wait a second or two for the oil to circulate. A modern efficient engine, especially a DI, really cant warm itself up at idle so all the time that its running off load and at low revs is just prolonging all the damage that cold running does.

Another factor is that many (most?) boat engines have an "all speed governor" so the "throttle" sets a request for speed rather than a throttle/power position (and excuse me for even using the word throttle when talking diesels) so when an engine starts it will momentarily go to full power regardless of throttle position whilst it gets up to speed. This is why you can make a lovely puff of black smoke with a quick throttle opening.

 

Rather than "Throttle" some engineers prefer the term rack so would say things like "full rack" rather than wide open throttle.

[Lifeboat Elsie May]

Top of Google search which is correct:

Giving your cold diesel engine time to warm up is essential. Before operating, you should always allow your equipment to warm up for at least five minutes – this will allow the hydraulic oil to warm. Failing to do so can make the engine work harder than necessary.

It's a petrol engine that can be driven slowly after one minute to strap in.

 

PS: I'm still flogging my new Beta 30 & Box, BUT will fit a smaller keel cooled Beta 20 or 24. Off the a pipe bending company PM to get some coiled up 3/4 inch SS or ally tubing. I think the alloy might be cheaper and slightly better for the inside of the cooling tank I'm planning to build. Only got 3 months to get things sorted before jump seating to SFO to have a chat/interview with this company that are not short of a few Bob:

http://www.LTAResearch.com

Edited July 13, 2023 by Lifeboat Elsie May
Too slow!

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Top of Google search which is correct:

Giving your cold diesel engine time to warm up is essential. Before operating, you should always allow your equipment to warm up for at least five minutes – this will allow the hydraulic oil to warm. Failing to do so can make the engine work harder than necessary.

It's a petrol engine that can be driven slowly after one minute to strap in.

 

PS: I'm still flogging my new Beta 30 & Box, BUT will fit a smaller keel cooled Beta 20 or 24. Off the a pipe bending company PM to get some coiled up 3/4 inch SS or ally tubing. I think the alloy might be cheaper and slightly better for the inside of the cooling tank I'm planning to build. Only got 3 months to get things sorted before jump seating to SFO to have a chat/interview with this company that are not short of a few Bob:

http://www.LTAResearch.com

 

No hydraulic oil used in at least half of canal boats, the other half have no hydraulic oil in the engine but the rest use hydraulics in the gearbox, but many of those use engine oil in the gearbox so an engine pre-heater won't do that oil much good. The Borg-Warner hydraulic boxes do use hydraulic oil (ATF) but so do the majority of mechanical boxes.

 

Tubes in a cooling tank? That is not normal practice. That sounds more like a homemade calorifier that would be used to heat domestic water. If you really are putting tubes for the coolant inside a tank, please ensure the tank's surface area can dump sufficient heat over long periods, tubes or no tubes, if the surface area is i sufficient then the engine will overheat.

[Tracy D'arth]

42 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Top of Google search which is correct:

Giving your cold diesel engine time to warm up is essential. Before operating, you should always allow your equipment to warm up for at least five minutes – this will allow the hydraulic oil to warm. Failing to do so can make the engine work harder than necessary.

It's a petrol engine that can be driven slowly after one minute to strap in.

 

PS: I'm still flogging my new Beta 30 & Box, BUT will fit a smaller keel cooled Beta 20 or 24. Off the a pipe bending company PM to get some coiled up 3/4 inch SS or ally tubing. I think the alloy might be cheaper and slightly better for the inside of the cooling tank I'm planning to build. Only got 3 months to get things sorted before jump seating to SFO to have a chat/interview with this company that are not short of a few Bob:

http://www.LTAResearch.com

Still talking absolute rubbish. Engines do not run on hydraulic oils.

What's " jump seating to SFO"?  Are you leaving? If so, thank heavens.

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Still talking absolute rubbish. Engines do not run on hydraulic oils.

What's " jump seating to SFO"?  Are you leaving? If so, thank heavens.

 

I suspect he is still thinking about huge marine or industrial diesels. I am sure large diesel standby generators use pre-heating, so they can go straight to full load when they start, but our engines only go to full load upon starting if an idiot is in charge of them.

 

I think he means he intends to bum a flight using what is known as a jump seat is an airliner. If so, then he must be an airline employee, and that might explain where some of his odd ideas come from. If he is in the airline's engineering setup of a pilot, I would want to know which airline so we can all avoid it! On second thoughts, maybe he works for Boing, that might explain why hey made an aircraft that flew itself into the ground that was beyond the pilot's control.

[Lifeboat Elsie May]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I suspect he is still thinking about huge marine or industrial diesels. I am sure large diesel standby generators use pre-heating, so they can go straight to full load when they start, but our engines only go to full load upon starting if an idiot is in charge of them.

 

I think he means he intends to bum a flight using what is known as a jump seat is an airliner. If so, then he must be an airline employee, and that might explain where some of his odd ideas come from. If he is in the airline's engineering setup of a pilot, I would want to know which airline so we can all avoid it! On second thoughts, maybe he works for Boing, that might explain why hey made an aircraft that flew itself into the ground that was beyond the pilot's control.

Nit picking over links is a specialty of TB who does now how to warm up a marine diesel:

 

Google top search for warming up marine diesel:

In moderate temperatures, such as seasonal sailing, start the engine and run in neutral at a speed just above low idle for no longer than 5 minutes to warm the oil. As noted above, a diesel will not warm to operating temperature until it is under load but when the oil is cold as well it should not take on a load.

 

So start up in idle if possible, make a cup of tea and then continue to warm the engine, BUT if you want to go to full chat, don't forget that oil temperature lags CHT by another 5 minutes. Then you can floor it.

 

PS: I'm not going to buy another Beta from the same company, but from the main supplier:

Beta 2020 hp @ 3,600 rpm - Marine Propulsion Engines Beta Marine

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Lifeboat Elsie May

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

Nit picking over links is a specialty of TB who does now how to warm up a marine diesel:

How to Start a Cold Diesel Engine in the Winter (machinefinder.com)

 

 

So an international website that caters for every climate from tropical to full arctic. They also tend to manufacture engines far larger than the engines used on this forum, that are based in a temperate climate. Many, if not most or all, of their products tend to have a lot of real hydraulic equipment hung on them that is exposed to the elements.

 

What you seem incapable of grasping is that there is a question of cost-effectiveness. In the majority of cases on the UK inland waterways with none of what you are pushing, a new engine is likely to outlast its owner and there is a good chance that it will outlast the hull before major hull work is required. The majority of UK inland boater employ procedures that effectively minimise wear cause by cold starting. Please stop trying to promote equipment and procedures that have been shown over tens of years as being unnecessary for the UK inland waterways.

[Lifeboat Elsie May]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So an international website that caters for every climate from tropical to full arctic. They also tend to manufacture engines far larger than the engines used on this forum, that are based in a temperate climate. Many, if not most or all, of their products tend to have a lot of real hydraulic equipment hung on them that is exposed to the elements.

 

What you seem incapable of grasping is that there is a question of cost-effectiveness. In the majority of cases on the UK inland waterways with none of what you are pushing, a new engine is likely to outlast its owner and there is a good chance that it will outlast the hull before major hull work is required. The majority of UK inland boater employ procedures that effectively minimise wear cause by cold starting. Please stop trying to promote equipment and procedures that have been shown over tens of years as being unnecessary for the UK inland waterways.

 

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I suspect he is still thinking about huge marine or industrial diesels. I am sure large diesel standby generators use pre-heating, so they can go straight to full load when they start, but our engines only go to full load upon starting if an idiot is in charge of them.

 

I think he means he intends to bum a flight using what is known as a jump seat is an airliner. If so, then he must be an airline employee, and that might explain where some of his odd ideas come from. If he is in the airline's engineering setup of a pilot, I would want to know which airline so we can all avoid it! On second thoughts, maybe he works for Boing, that might explain why hey made an aircraft that flew itself into the ground that was beyond the pilot's control.

I was never desperate enough to fly for any airline, and lucky enough to leave OATS, (Oxford), after 5 years of traing Oamani Air Farce student, and being trained by the best of the best from WW2 bomber and fighter command, or a few RAF test pilot who had done their time after the RAF with BA. I left Kindlington with a full set, ATPL and Multi engine QFI, (Instructors rating and straight into flight test after an approval from the CAA). Flew with Cdr Nick Bennet RN, Bucaneer test pilot, SRN4 Hovercraft test pilot, SKS 500 & 600A&B, over the the US for a conversion course, FAA ATP and RDX despate authority. FAA examiner on a fair list of everthing except helicopter, Seaplane rating in Florida, CL-215 water bombers part time. DC-10F co-pilot from Sandy Dago CA Brown trousers field and base North from mid summer until around October, Canada a few times according to what is on fire. Did the famous Rim fire. P1 U/S DC-10F, but not allowed to fly P1 due lack of time on type. Went sailing. Great job, but flight test is more fun, as you don't have to hang around waiting for someone to shout fire!

[Tracy D'arth]

52 minutes ago, Lifeboat Elsie May said:

 

I was never desperate enough to fly for any airline, and lucky enough to leave OATS, (Oxford), after 5 years of traing Oamani Air Farce student, and being trained by the best of the best from WW2 bomber and fighter command, or a few RAF test pilot who had done their time after the RAF with BA. I left Kindlington with a full set, ATPL and Multi engine QFI, (Instructors rating and straight into flight test after an approval from the CAA). Flew with Cdr Nick Bennet RN, Bucaneer test pilot, SRN4 Hovercraft test pilot, SKS 500 & 600A&B, over the the US for a conversion course, FAA ATP and RDX despate authority. FAA examiner on a fair list of everthing except helicopter, Seaplane rating in Florida, CL-215 water bombers part time. DC-10F co-pilot from Sandy Dago CA Brown trousers field and base North from mid summer until around October, Canada a few times according to what is on fire. Did the famous Rim fire. P1 U/S DC-10F, but not allowed to fly P1 due lack of time on type. Went sailing. Great job, but flight test is more fun, as you don't have to hang around waiting for someone to shout fire!

Totally irrelevant drivel, nothing to do with the thread and are we allowed to discuss aircraft matters on this forum?

 

Proves that you know nothing about canal boats. Mental health problem?

Edited July 13, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[Lifeboat Elsie May]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Totally irrelevant drivel, nothing to do with the thread and are we allowed to discuss aircraft matters on this forum?

 

Proves that you know nothing about canal boats. Mental health problem?

Right back on track about my Beta 30, as it turns out that it is a Beta 30, BUT they paint all the keel cooled ones GREEN, So I changed the stock picture, have a drivel free time readin about how you should not install keel coolin.

  So cool out there if you are stuck in a ditch with a forked engine, just get connected and buy my BETA 30, don't pay more to a horror story of a Cantline 38.

 

[Athy]

18 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

l, nothing to do with the thread and are we allowed to discuss aircraft matters on this forum?

 

Proves that you know nothing about canal boats. Mental health problem?

Neither irrelevance nor aeroplanes contravenes our rules.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

Neither irrelevance nor aeroplanes contravenes our rules.

Pity.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

Neither irrelevance nor aeroplanes contravenes our rules.

How about dangerous and misleading advice ?