Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
NB Caelmiri

Declaring a home mooring

Featured Posts

I'm moored outside work which is a private mooring (registered with the CaRT) - they've (the place I work at) kindly let me stay basically for as long as I want. I'm thinking about asking them if I can register/declare the mooring to be my home mooring. Having never had a home mooring before, what are the main benefits of letting the CRT know I now have one?

 

I suppose the one benefit would be that I won't have them chasing me up near the end of the 12 month licence period if I've not been for my 20 mile cruise (which I probably will do anyway..). Do you think it's worth bothering them (both the work establishment and the CaRT) about this?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just on the practicalities, you make the change of mooring location on the licensing website, it’s a 2 min job, you don’t need to contact anyone.  If you do have a mooring then I would say that you should update it, so it reflects the current status, and keeps the stats correct.  Not sure how much difference in practice It makes though, unless perhaps you will leave the boat at locations on the towpath away from your home mooring.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe some insurance companies charge you less if you have a home mooring, on the basis that it is likely to be more secure when you leave the boat.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Keeping Up said:

I believe some insurance companies charge you less if you have a home mooring, on the basis that it is likely to be more secure when you leave the boat.

On that basis it would be worth it. I should speak to my insurance (GJW) and see if they'll knock a few quid off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fear you might get caught up with "End of Garden" requirements, both you and employer.

Check the EoG  on the C&RT website.

 

Bod.

  • Greenie 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Naughty Cal said:

Will the mooring need declaring to CRT as an "end of garden" mooring?

 

It will then be subject to an end of garden mooring permit.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/631.pdf

 

1 minute ago, Bod said:

I fear you might get caught up with "End of Garden" requirements, both you and employer.

Check the EoG  on the C&RT website.

 

Bod.

Not sure, I don't think so. It's a mooring registered with the CRT and is paid for by the landlord. It does show up as a mooring in the licensing manager on the CRT website as one I can select as my home mooring so I think it's all above board and valid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have thought that if you are actually staying there rather than moving every two weeks, you definitely do need to declare it as a home mooring.  Surely if you are recorded as CC, whether the mooring owner lets you stay there for a while is irrelevant as far as CRT is concerned, they are likely to get stroppy, and the fact that you make one 20 mile cruise in a year isn't going to  justify CC status.

You will end up paying for a mooring permit, but it's better than endless hassle.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a CCer with no home mooring you MUST move every 14 days to a NEW PLACE. If you have a home mooring then you still need to move every 14 days (when away from your home mooring) but you do not need to a 'new place' just a new location.

 

The difference being that a new PLACE is (variously) a new council boundary, a new  county etc etc. A new location can be just 200 yards away.

The law says that CCers must move it doesn't say than a HMer must.

 

 

There is also the question (as raised by Nigel Moore) as to whether a liveaboard can be a CCer - it would appear that the answer is no.

 

Legally, a liveaboard cannot be a CCer.

 

 

I actually take issue with the applicability of “intent”; I believe the judge in Davies got bamboozled by Mr Stoner QC's (as he since became) clever rhetoric on the point. As one online commentator noted at the time, if the letter of the law is being followed, it really does not matter why. To say that Mr Davies' movement pattern was unexceptional in itself (the 'continuous journey' argument of BW was rejected - “I think it is right to say however that my decision is not to be taken as fully endorsing the board's guidance. It is possible to envisage use of a vessel which fell short of the Board's concept of continuous cruising but which still qualified the vessel for a licence under section 17(3)( c )(ii).”), but that he was committing a criminal act because he only complied in order to comply – hence was not 'bona fide' in what he was doing - was ludicrous. Mr Davies' downfall, in the eyes of the judge, was that he was “clearly living on the boat”, hence that his purpose with the boat was living on it & therefore not for navigating.

 

On that argument, it could never have made any difference no matter what his movement pattern was. Every permanent live-aboard embarked on a progressive journey around the system in their retirement would be unlawful, simply because they had made the boat their sole and permanent home. Not that CaRT would take exception to them of course; but the principle applies.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I would have thought that if you are actually staying there rather than moving every two weeks, you definitely do need to declare it as a home mooring.  Surely if you are recorded as CC, whether the mooring owner lets you stay there for a while is irrelevant as far as CRT is concerned, they are likely to get stroppy, and the fact that you make one 20 mile cruise in a year isn't going to  justify CC status.

You will end up paying for a mooring permit, but it's better than endless hassle.

That's fair. I was actually just thinking about those who may stay in a marina for a few months over the winter and then CC for the rest of the year or wonder if there are boaters who have a few months at one marina and a few months at another - there's certainly boaters on YouTube that seem to do this. I wonder what their status is? I've confirmed with work that I can declare this as a home mooring so going to do that.

 

I'll certainly be doing more than a single 20 mile cruise this year - have a few cruises planned including York but it's good to get some opinions on "best practice".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As a CCer with no home mooring you MUST move every 14 days to a NEW PLACE. If you have a home mooring then you still need to move every 14 days (when away from your home mooring) but you do not need to a 'new place' just a new location.

 

The difference being that a new PLACE is (variously) a new council boundary, a new  county etc etc. A new location can be just 200 yards away.

The law says that CCers must move it doesn't say than a HMer must.

 

 

There is also the question (as raised by Nigel Moore) as to whether a liveaboard can be a CCer - it would appear that the answer is no.

 

Legally, a liveaboard cannot be a CCer.

 

 

I actually take issue with the applicability of “intent”; I believe the judge in Davies got bamboozled by Mr Stoner QC's (as he since became) clever rhetoric on the point. As one online commentator noted at the time, if the letter of the law is being followed, it really does not matter why. To say that Mr Davies' movement pattern was unexceptional in itself (the 'continuous journey' argument of BW was rejected - “I think it is right to say however that my decision is not to be taken as fully endorsing the board's guidance. It is possible to envisage use of a vessel which fell short of the Board's concept of continuous cruising but which still qualified the vessel for a licence under section 17(3)( c )(ii).”), but that he was committing a criminal act because he only complied in order to comply – hence was not 'bona fide' in what he was doing - was ludicrous. Mr Davies' downfall, in the eyes of the judge, was that he was “clearly living on the boat”, hence that his purpose with the boat was living on it & therefore not for navigating.

 

On that argument, it could never have made any difference no matter what his movement pattern was. Every permanent live-aboard embarked on a progressive journey around the system in their retirement would be unlawful, simply because they had made the boat their sole and permanent home. Not that CaRT would take exception to them of course; but the principle applies.

 

You've misinterpreted that. The argument was that his primary purpose was to live aboard and moved only as far as he thought he could get away with to facilitate that. For bona fide to be established he should have wanted to cruise for its own sake more towards as much as he could manage rather than the minimum he thought he could get away with and living aboard is perfectly in line with that. In short, it's not acceptable to minimally move to live aboard, but is acceptable to live aboard to facilitate bona fide navigation throughout the period of the licence.

  • Greenie 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how you can't do both - be a liveaboard and use the boat for bona fide navigation. To leave your boat every two weeks only to return to it for cruising purposes doesn't seem to me any more "bona fide" than staying on your boat.

 

If you cruise the entire canal network over the course of a year or two, then surely that is bona fide navigation despite whether you live on the boat between journies or return to some home elsewhere. Surely the cruising pattern defines whether your intention is bona fide navigation rather than what you do between cruises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NB Caelmiri said:

I'm not sure how you can't do both - be a liveaboard and use the boat for bona fide navigation. To leave your boat every two weeks only to return to it for cruising purposes doesn't seem to me any more "bona fide" than staying on your boat.

 

If you cruise the entire canal network over the course of a year or two, then surely that is bona fide navigation despite whether you live on the boat between journies or return to some home elsewhere. Surely the cruising pattern defines whether your intention is bona fide navigation rather than what you do between cruises.

It's all about intent. Bona fide is moving because you want to, not because it's a condition of not paying for a mooring and a fortnightly chore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sir Nibble said:

It's all about intent. Bona fide is moving because you want to, not because it's a condition of not paying for a mooring and a fortnightly chore.

Well, sure but living aboard doesn't preclude that. You can surely do both. Live aboard and move because I want to. I do both, or certainly I did when I wasn't sat on my mooring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, NB Caelmiri said:

Well, sure but living aboard doesn't preclude that. You can surely do both. Live aboard and move because I want to. I do both, or certainly I did when I wasn't sat on my mooring.

Precisely. Living aboard to facilitate cruising, not cruising to facilitate living aboard. The cruising isn't even to facilitate living aboard, it's to avoid having a mooring.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Precisely. Living aboard to facilitate cruising, not cruising to facilitate living aboard. The cruising isn't even to facilitate living aboard, it's to avoid having a mooring.

I guess in a court of law you'd have to prove that to the judge.

I like to think I'd be ok - 2017 from July I cruised 88 miles (I'd only just bought the boat halfway through the year), 2018 160 miles and 2019 686 miles.

 

Of course, distance cruised possibly isn't an indictor of intent but my cruise log would show I'm not going from A to B and back.

Edited by NB Caelmiri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

2019 686 miles.

Isn't that around the figure that the IWA want C&RT to introduce as the minimum CC requirement ?

 

Edit - found it :

 

Stella Ridgeway, Chair, and Mark Tizard, Vice Chair, of the National Association of Boat Owners, said that the RBOA had joined the Inland Waterways Association in calling for a range increase for boats with no home mooring, but that this could potentially cause legal problems if adopted by the Canal and River Trust.

“NABO remains of the belief that it is for CRT to define what constitutes 'bona fide' navigation from their perspective as the navigation authority further having defined it recently by granting (full) licences to (boaters) previously (given) restricted (licences), it is difficult for them to redefine it in line with the IWA/RBOA wishes,” they told LB News.

“We remain keen for CRT to enforce regular movement using its existing powers,” they added.

 

The powerful and influential Inland Waterways Association have submitted their current policy – available on their website - to the Trust’s national licence review which calls for the range requirement criteria of the current ‘continuous cruiser’ guidance to be increased to 100 miles, with a total distance travelled requirement of 300 miles, of which at least 60 miles must be covered in every quarter of the year.

 

The London branch of the National Bargee Traveller Association – which represents boats with no home moorings – reacted with fury to the IWA and the RBOA’s calls for a distance increase, telling LB News that it was in direct conflict with the current law and that the RBOA statement came from a “place of prejudice.”

The RBOA’s preference for a 200-300 mile distance comes from a place of prejudice,” said an NBTAL spokesperson.

“Prejudice against working people who are travelling boaters; against bargee traveller families; and boaters who are physically or mentally ill, as opposed to those boaters who use the waterways as a place for their hobbies or leisure who may have a boat as a second home. The waterways are a place for a range of people and they are not just for a certain kind of person,” they added.

 

“The RBOA’s statement talks of London (and Bath) having too many boats; and a dislike of boats without home moorings 'with having lifestyle connections with one place – for example: education of children, employment or health needs'. This is very telling of the intentions for their envisioned rules. Their intentions are to get rid of a sizeable part of the boaters without home mooring community.”

 

“RBOA seems to have no interest in the law, not just the 1995 Act but the Equality Act 2010. The Equality Act 2010 states that equality adjustment should be made by bodies as such as CRT for people with health needs in order to address unequal opportunity. To demand that all waterway authorities should act against people without home moorings that need to be in a certain area because of health needs is a demand that waterway authorities should break the law under the Equality Act 2010.”

Edited by Alan de Enfield
  • Happy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Isn't that around the figure that the IWA want C&RT to introduce as the minimum CC requirement ?

I don't think it's far off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

That's fair. I was actually just thinking about those who may stay in a marina for a few months over the winter and then CC for the rest of the year or wonder if there are boaters who have a few months at one marina and a few months at another - there's certainly boaters on YouTube that seem to do this. I wonder what their status is? I've confirmed with work that I can declare this as a home mooring so going to do that.

 

I'll certainly be doing more than a single 20 mile cruise this year - have a few cruises planned including York but it's good to get some opinions on "best practice".

If I remember rightly, you can undeclare yourself from your home mooring if you go off CCing, and then declare a home mooring again when you get back to it - might save a few bob in mooring permit fees.  I think quite a few do that, who basically cruise through the warmer bit of year and then stay at a marina over winter.  Most of us who are basically home moorers don't do that because we'd have no assurance that our mooring would still be there when we got back to it as there's generally a shortage, but if yours is at your place of work that may not be a problem.

There certainly seems to be no reason who you can't combine being part CCer and part home moorer during a year, as long as you keep CRT up to date.  And your own records for when they lose theirs!

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the main thing to check is that your home mooring had residential status if you want to live there without adopting a low profile.You would have the see the agreement between the land/water owner and  CaRT to see what kind of status it has if that is CaRT own the water as it may be private wharf. I don't think CaRT will be chasing you up if you are on a private recognised mooring. You should be free to cruise as little or as much as you like.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NB Caelmiri said:

I'm moored outside work which is a private mooring (registered with the CaRT) - they've (the place I work at) kindly let me stay basically for as long as I want. I'm thinking about asking them if I can register/declare the mooring to be my home mooring. Having never had a home mooring before, what are the main benefits of letting the CRT know I now have one?

 

I suppose the one benefit would be that I won't have them chasing me up near the end of the 12 month licence period if I've not been for my 20 mile cruise (which I probably will do anyway..). Do you think it's worth bothering them (both the work establishment and the CaRT) about this?

 

 

If you take on a home mooring you must inform CRT

But I’d want to first establish whether it’s ok to use this mooring as a home mooring. Ask CRT.  Are there other boats there?
Don’t take a landowners word, or your employers word that all will be ok. 

It may involve a change of use from a casual visitors mooring to a home mooring and therefore a charge. Dunno?
 

The benefit of having a home mooring is you can haunt the same circuit of boozers within a short range repeatedly without consequence. 
 

Whenever I’ve taken a mooring in a marina for any length of time, even just a month, I’ve notified CRT. It’s dead simple. And I always do it over the phone, keeps them awake. 

And I let my insurance company know too. Never had a discount mind. 

to add: whether you tell CRT your gonna live on the boat or use the mooring for leisure is your choice. I personally wouldn’t bring up the subject of living on the boat. 

Edited by Goliath
  • Happy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers all, I've updated my boat status on the licensing site and CRT have said they'd be in touch if they need more info.

 

There is another boat here which has had some dealings with the CRT in the past and essentially they suggested that he approached the landlord to establish it as a home mooring, which is what he's done. CRT are off his back now. I'll wait for their phone call, I'm sure they'll be in touch at some point.

 

Thanks all for the advice! Some useful info there to keep in mind 👍

Edited by NB Caelmiri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good luck with it. 
sounds ideal, no commute to work 👍

 

 

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Good luck with it. 
sounds ideal, no commute to work 👍

 

 

No excuse for being late either ;)

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.