Help please! Our engine bay is full of smoke and our engine has stalled.

[Tasemu]

10 hours ago, zenataomm said:

I'd like to know .......

When the engine originally stopped, did it just come to a rest as if someone had throttled it back and then it turned it off?

Or, did it suddenly slow with a metallic screeching sound before suddenly jamming?

 

 

Just stopped as i would have if i pulled the stopper plunger.

Hey guys, so many replies! sorry i fell asleep! I've checked the pulleys and pump and it looks ok. I've checked the coolant tank.. looks dry as a bone in there. I'm going back to re-read all the comments now and reply to as many as i can.

[Tasemu]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Paint on the front of the head and rocker cover looks its been over hot as well.

 

Oil drain pump looks as if its just hanging on a skin tank pipe so if its on a hose the hose may have degraded and be leaking.

It is yeah, i'll inspect the hose today.

 

10 hours ago, Slim said:

I'n now viewing on tablet which gives clearer pictures than laptop. Can now see the oil in the starboard engine bilge. No obvious reason for oil in that bilge, water yes (cruiser stern) but not oil. How did it get there?

I'm not sure, its been there since i started renting it.

10 hours ago, Parahandy said:

My guess is an amateur oil change , maybe even several amateur oil changes ?

I'll take a picture of the dipstick and the level on it today, i try to keep it where i think it makes sense haha, but god knows.

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't see the rear plate of the engine drip tray and suspect there is not one so the drip tray runs the full length of the bilge. That puts stern gland drips into the drip tray and the amount of cleanish grease leaking out suggest it may leak. based on what I can see it would not surprise me if the drip tray has not over topped the engine beds on more than one occasion.

There's no drip tray unfortunately, i've never been able to pump it out enough to put in a tray that doesn't float away. Can't install a proper one as i'm only renting it.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

Just stopped as i would have if i pulled the stopper plunger.

Hey guys, so many replies! sorry i fell asleep! I've checked the pulleys and pump and it looks ok. I've checked the coolant tank.. looks dry as a bone in there. I'm going back to re-read all the comments now and reply to as many as i can.

 

Now the engine is nice ad cold I would try to refill it with plain water. If you have a failed hose or badly rusted core plug you will soon see/hear the leak. Also bleed the skin tank. then leave the engine for an hour or so and check if the level has gone down, if it has you have a leak.

 

Then if all is well try to start it with the filler cap off. If water and air spurts out of the filler than I am afraid its a head gasket at least. if it runs without boiling re-bleed the skin tank and get it nice and hot. I would probably take it for a run but keep close to the mooring so the engine is under load. if all seems OK get antifreeze into the system.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

There's no drip tray unfortunately, i've never been able to pump it out enough to put in a tray that doesn't float away. Can't install a proper one as i'm only renting it.

On steel and some GRP boats the engine drip tray is not a separate tray. On a narrowboat it would be formed but the two engine beds, the bulkhead in front of the engine and a plate welded between the beds roughly below the shaft coupling. In my view if that rear plate is not there its a BSS failure because of the pollution risk when pumping out any water that has got through the stern gland.

[Tasemu]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Now the engine is nice ad cold I would try to refill it with plain water. If you have a failed hose or badly rusted core plug you will soon see/hear the leak. Also bleed the skin tank. then leave the engine for an hour or so and check if the level has gone down, if it has you have a leak.

 

Then if all is well try to start it with the filler cap off. If water and air spurts out of the filler than I am afraid its a head gasket at least. if it runs without boiling re-bleed the skin tank and get it nice and hot. I would probably take it for a run but keep close to the mooring so the engine is under load. if all seems OK get antifreeze into the system.

Thanks, i will do this today! Sorry for some potentially stupid questions:

 

* When i first bleed the skin tank, i should have the engine off right?

* When i start with the filler cap off, i should put it on shortly after right? before it heats up? or is it ok to leave off as it comes up to temp.

[Tasemu]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

On steel and some GRP boats the engine drip tray is not a separate tray. On a narrowboat it would be formed but the two engine beds, the bulkhead in front of the engine and a plate welded between the beds roughly below the shaft coupling. In my view if that rear plate is not there its a BSS failure because of the pollution risk when pumping out any water that has got through the stern gland.

Oh right, i'll have to pull out the old bilge pump after this and have a proper look, and get some containers for the water.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Tasemu said:

Thanks, i will do this today! Sorry for some potentially stupid questions:

 

* When i first bleed the skin tank, i should have the engine off right?

* When i start with the filler cap off, i should put it on shortly after right? before it heats up? or is it ok to leave off as it comes up to temp.

No question is stupid if you don't know the answer - not you but others, when you keep asking the same question because you don't like the answer is. Not seen and stud questions from you.

 

Yes, bleed the skin tank with the engine off.

 

I would leave the cap off so I could see if I was getting a constant stream of gas bubbles that indicates a head gasket leak. However you are likely to get some bubbles at first and the surging as the thermostat opens. The pressure cap is there to raiws the boiling point of the coolant so when under high powers coolant does not boil locally on internal hot spots. Probably impossible to achieve on a canal.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Tasemu said:

Oh right, i'll have to pull out the old bilge pump after this and have a proper look, and get some containers for the water.

 

If the setup is as you indicate and if the bilge pump is between the engine beds that is defiantly a BSS fail. Its not the water that's the problem its the fuel and oil floating on top of the water. Dispersible nappies or kitty litter tied into something like an old pair of tights will help get the last dregs out. Don't leave nappies in for more than an hour or so because they tend to split open.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

34 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As long as the head is full of water its enough to prevent major damage - even if that water is boiling.  However just a head full of boiling water in a running engine will not last long.

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand: My belief was that a header tank is there purely to make up any loss of coolant from the system itself. If any coolant is lost it will naturally be replaced, through gravity, from the header tank. The coolant in the header tank isn't 'circulated' around the system by the water pump. Because of this if the water around the head was boiling, perhaps because of water pump failure, a full header tank wouldn't do much towards saving the situation. So, as long as the cooling system is leak free a header tank only needs to have a little coolant in it. Please correct if this is wrong?   

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand: My belief was that a header tank is there purely to make up any loss of coolant from the system itself. If any coolant is lost it will naturally be replaced, through gravity, from the header tank. The coolant in the header tank isn't 'circulated' around the system by the water pump. Because of this if the water around the head was boiling, perhaps because of water pump failure, a full header tank wouldn't do much towards saving the situation. So, as long as the cooling system is leak free a header tank only needs to have a little coolant in it. Please correct if this is wrong?   

 

Because of the way most boat systems are plumbed coolant will circulate through the exhaust manifold cum header tank or manifold cum heat exchanger. In fact most thermostat outlets connect straight onto such header tanks. If it is a remote tank a sis not modern practice then coolant may or may not circulate through the tank depending upon how many connections it has and how its plumbed.  Allowing for all that you are correct, it just tops up the system for minor losses.

 

If the engine water pump fails (although as long as the belt is in place that is a very rare occurrence - I have never had one on a boat) then you are again correct the water would oil but gravity will still be trying to fill the head. Then it becomes a fight between steam trying to get out and water trying get into the head but as long as there is boiling water in the head the water is absorbing more heat than normal because of the latent heat of ?????? (can't remember which latent heat refers to boiling). The major damage is done when the water boils away so the temperature can rise to far above boiling.  It gets even worse when the top of the  cylinders become dry.

 

The header tank can have no coolant in it as long as the actual engine is full of coolant but that is to be very firmly discouraged because that state won't last for long and then damage is done.

 

[Onewheeler]

Not relevant to the immediate problem, but would anyone like to comment on the rubber hose coming from the fuel filter?

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Onewheeler said:

Not relevant to the immediate problem, but would anyone like to comment on the rubber hose coming from the fuel filter?

Another good spot. It depends upon what is written on the hose - does it comply with the relevant fire  resistant ISO and that we can not tell. I looks as if it is secured to the hose tail by a ziptie and I am sure that's another BSS failure.  Tasemu best at least replace that plastic ziptie thing with the proper sized worm drive (Jubilee) clip once the immediate problem is sorted.

[Tasemu]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Another good spot. It depends upon what is written on the hose - does it comply with the relevant fire  resistant ISO and that we can not tell. I looks as if it is secured to the hose tail by a ziptie and I am sure that's another BSS failure.  Tasemu best at least replace that plastic ziptie thing with the proper sized worm drive (Jubilee) clip once the immediate problem is sorted.

Cheers mate, will definitely do.

[Slim]

56 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

Just stopped as i would have if i pulled the stopper plunger.

Hey guys, so many replies! sorry i fell asleep! I've checked the pulleys and pump and it looks ok. I've checked the coolant tank.. looks dry as a bone in there. I'm going back to re-read all the comments now and reply to as many as i can.

Leaving a lid on a big can of worms if you are renting the boat why not involve your 'landlord' 

[Tony Brooks]

Further check. When you refill it with water try to look at the front of the engine (torch & mirror) below the water pump and again after having run it. The water pump can leak with age so if it is you should see antifreeze/rust/water stains running down the front of the engine.

 

Once that pump starts leaking it is very intermittent so it may leak when stationary, When running, or both. You simply cant tell so check for the stain.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Tasemu]

1 minute ago, Slim said:

Leaving a lid on a big can of worms if you are renting the boat why not involve your 'landlord' 

I did immediately, he said to try and put more oil in it. But that felt a little off to me so I came here.

[Slim]

Leaving the lid firmly on a big can of worms but if you're renting the boat why not involve your 'landlord' .

 

Ignore double post

Edited May 11, 2020 by Slim

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Slim said:

Leaving a lid on a big can of worms if you are renting the boat why not involve your 'landlord' 

Where did that come from? Was it in a previous topic. If so that would be the  first thing I would do and not start trying to solve it myself.

[Tasemu]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Where did that come from? Was it in a previous topic. If so that would be the  first thing I would do and not start trying to solve it myself.

I contacted him right away but he didn't know what or why it was happening, he said put more oil in, which i've done but i suspected that wouldn't be enough. I'd also like to learn more myself too.

[Slim]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Where did that come from? Was it in a previous topic. If so that would be the  first thing I would do and not start trying to solve it myself.

OP mentioned it in one of his multi answer posts earlier today. I started to ask the question then cancelled it but not before OP read it.

[David Mack]

46 minutes ago, Slim said:

Leaving a lid on a big can of worms if you are renting the boat why not involve your 'landlord' 

Oh dear. If this is a rented boat there is plenty of scope for an argument about who is responsible (and should pay) for any engine damage. What instructions were given about engine operation and maintenance? Were they followed? Etc. Etc.

[Detling]

If this was a house it would be 100% the landlords resposibilty and should be so here. There are landlords who care, follow rules and regulations and those who don't!

 

[dor]

Just to clarify a couple of points which could possibly lead to some confusion.  Some people refer to the water-filled exhaust manifold as the header tank, whilst others refer to a plastic bottle attached by a tube to the manifold or thermostat housing.  The former, if it has a filler cap, should be filled to within about 1 cm from the top.  Any excess will be pushed out at full temp.  Regarding the plastic bottle, it does not necessarily have to have water in when cold, it depends a lot on the size of the skin tank and piping.  For example, my one litre bottle is empty when engine is cold.  It gradually fills as the engine heats up, but goes down again when it cools.  It provides a quick check that there is sufficient water in the engine.  Filling the bottle, even half way, when cold will just cause water to be pushed out when hot.

[Tasemu]

34 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Oh dear. If this is a rented boat there is plenty of scope for an argument about who is responsible (and should pay) for any engine damage. What instructions were given about engine operation and maintenance? Were they followed? Etc. Etc.

No instructions, no operation nor maintenance other than to check the oil occasionally. all followed. I dont think the owner does much with this boat. He hasn't come to see it once since I moved on. He didn't seem to care much when I told him it overheated, but we do have a contract if the engine did indeed break down and I was unable to fix it, he would be obligated to get it running again. Legals aside though, if I can get it running again and work out where its leaking, i can take the advice here to him and hopefully he can get it fixed. I need the engine to charge my batteries for work, that's my main issue here.

20 minutes ago, dor said:

Just to clarify a couple of points which could possibly lead to some confusion.  Some people refer to the water-filled exhaust manifold as the header tank, whilst others refer to a plastic bottle attached by a tube to the manifold or thermostat housing.  The former, if it has a filler cap, should be filled to within about 1 cm from the top.  Any excess will be pushed out at full temp.  Regarding the plastic bottle, it does not necessarily have to have water in when cold, it depends a lot on the size of the skin tank and piping.  For example, my one litre bottle is empty when engine is cold.  It gradually fills as the engine heats up, but goes down again when it cools.  It provides a quick check that there is sufficient water in the engine.  Filling the bottle, even half way, when cold will just cause water to be pushed out when hot.

Thanks for the heads up. I see the former with the filler cap and will be topping it up today. However I'm not sure what the plastic bottle is, i do not see anything like that on the engine.

Also thanks everyone for all the help. The feedback has been seriously helpful.

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

Thanks for the heads up. I see the former with the filler cap and will be topping it up today. However I'm not sure what the plastic bottle is, i do not see anything like that on the engine.

Also thanks everyone for all the help. The feedback has been seriously helpful.

You may not have one, not all boats do.  Looking at the photos again I don't think you have.

You need to top the water up before you run the engine again.

Edited May 11, 2020 by ditchcrawler