Emulsified diesel

[MHS]

We came on the boat today and started  the Beta 43 which stalled after a minute or so. It’s never done it before. 

 

I checked the fuel separator and there was some emulsified (white) diesel. We always keep the tank full and use Fuelset. 

 

I’ve drained diesel off from the tank via the separator. The diesel is a little cloudy, but I understand this can be the case with Fuelset. I’ve removed the fuel filter and hand pumped fuel through before fitting a new filter and bleeding. 

 

Will I need to do any thing else, like clean the injectors before it’s likely to start? Or will I need to call in the cavalry?

 

[MHS]

I’ve loosened all four injectors and cranked it. Emulsified fuel is spurting out. I will continue to crank periodically while monitoring the starter battery. 

 

Advice please. 

[MHS]

Sorted. 

 

We cranked on and off for 20 mins then tightened up the injectors. It wanted to fire once two were tight. Now running fine. 

 

I will check the fuel separator every 10 or 20 mins to start with and learn if there’s any more to come. Will delay our departure until tomorrow. 

[Tony Brooks]

Better still syphon the tank, you probably have several gallons of water and emulsified diesel at the bottom.

[Keeping Up]

1 hour ago, MHS said:

The diesel is a little cloudy, but I understand this can be the case with Fuelset.

Yes I used to worry about always having slightly cloudy diesel after starting to use an additive, but it seems that it is quite common.

[MHS]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Better still syphon the tank, you probably have several gallons of water and emulsified diesel at the bottom.

I just have and there was a tiny amount of dirt but no water. 

 

We usually list slightly to port where the fuel filler is. The fuel pick up is on the starboard side, so the better side to be. We put some smokeless fuel in our starboard locker a week ago and had noticed we had a slight list to starboard now. 

 

I have shifted all the bags to the port side and will try the pump again in the morning. 

 

We have a five year old boat, always keep the tank full and have used fuel set for the last 3 years. Would it be usual to have gallons of water in there?

 

My big mistake was not to check the fuel separator since the last service. With all the hassle of being stuck for over 8 weeks with the Trent in flood, I forgot. I won’t again. 

[Ex Brummie]

I never had trouble with fuel until, after reading about the propensity of the bio content to absorb water, I bought a product called Exocet, widely used in agriculture and home heating oil. After 2 fills, the agglomorator  and fuel filter became gelled. I never used the rest of the bottle.

[Momac]

No fuel treatment will deal with significant amounts of water .....but it may attempt to do so.

Water in the fuel may have arrived already in the fuel when you last topped up.  Or could  it possible that  rain has entered via  the fuel  filler . If  the fuel filler cap relies on an O ring, perhaps  fit a new O ring.

Be prepared for the possible need for frequent fuel filter changes .

[MHS]

33 minutes ago, MartynG said:

No fuel treatment will deal with significant amounts of water .....but it may attempt to do so.

Water in the fuel may have arrived already in the fuel when you last topped up.  Or could  it possible that  rain has entered via  the fuel  filler . If  the fuel filler cap relies on an O ring, perhaps  fit a new O ring.

Be prepared for the possible need for frequent fuel filter changes .

I’ve checked the O-ring and it looks absolutely fine, but for the sake of £1 or so, I will get a new one when passing a chandlers. 

 

I fitted a new fuel filter and have another one spare. Let’s hope I don’t need it too soon. 

[DandV]

Mineral diesel fuel is very good at separating water. This water seperation is degraded by emulsifier additives and bio diesel content.

It is pointless having that huge separator space below the fuel outlet in fuel tanks if you never drain, or pump, the tank bottoms, The water, sediment, bacterial growth, emulsified porridge, level will just keep rising until it reaches the fuel outlet level, and then a slug of crap will quickly overcome fuel line filters. To pump the fuel tank bottoms a small hand pump and a length of copper, or rigid plastic down through the fill/ dip cap will generally suffice. A clear glass jar with a secure cap, is great for examining and then if necessary disposing of any crud.

The oil company term for acceptable fuel was clear and bright and free of sediment and suspended sludge. If you have never done it before, you are most likely to be horrified at the gunk turning up. But after a few pump outs it should settle to only traces being removed every couple of months or so. If no real problems are the detected twice a year, and immediatly prior to any critical passages, may suffice.

This is based on my experience as an oil company engineer responsible for hundreds of fuel tanks, my experience with our own narrowboat, and currently with the engine on a heritage yacht.

It was always a battle for us oil company engineers to persuade non technical superiors that a fancy additive, or filtration system was not a low cost substitute to regular, for aviation fuel, daily, tank bottom removal and visual inspection.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by DandV

[nicknorman]

Yup never seen the point of fuel emulsifiers. Best to keep the fuel and water separate, and extract the latter before it’s an issue.

[DandV]

Nick would be well aware that anything, substance, additive, to anything supplied for use in an aviation engine would be required to, and audited for, strict compliance to approved standards, and a verifiable custody chain, including agreed handover testing, from manufacture, transport, and delivery into the aircraft. Detected Ad hoc additive additions could most likely result in personal  and, if relevant, employing company liability prosecution and recovery for damages.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, DandV said:

Nick would be well aware that anything, substance, additive, to anything supplied for use in an aviation engine would be required to, and audited for, strict compliance to approved standards, and a verifiable custody chain, including agreed handover testing, from manufacture, transport, and delivery into the aircraft. Detected Ad hoc additive additions could most likely result in personal  and, if relevant, employing company liability prosecution and recovery for damages.

 

When flying light aircraft one of the Pre-Flight Daily checks was to drain/check the fuel tank. simply 'turn the tap' and catch some fuel, & check for water.

Not really something easily done on a boat.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When flying light aircraft one of the Pre-Flight Daily checks was to drain/check the fuel tank. simply 'turn the tap' and catch some fuel, & check for water.

Not really something easily done on a boat.

I am really surprised its not easy on at least one4 of your boats. I agree its not easy or even impossible on most/all narrowboats but it could be made so on new builds if the hull builders realised how important it is.

 

My take on the additive thing is to first recognise how each additive works and act accordingly so until I sold the boat my procedure was to consider al ladditives as nothing more than a potential insurance and:-

 

Early spring, suck the bottom of the tank until I got bright clear diesel.

 

Upon refuelling from then until about July use an emulsifying additive (fuel set) to try to keep any residual water and water that was supplied with fuel in suspension so it could be "burned".

 

From then to end of season nothing to get rid of the emulsifier.

 

On last fill of the season add a biocide cum demulsifier to help any water separate out of the fuel so next spring I could suck it out.

 

The additives might have been a complete waste of money for all I know but I suspect using an emulsifier without sucking the water out of the tank first, especially if you have never done it, is asking for furl problems. Bug tends to live at the interface between the water and fuel so emulsifying the fuel just makes millions of small interfaces around each water molecule.

 

 

[RLWP]

More importantly with aeroplanes, 

 

2 hours ago, DandV said:

Ad hoc additive additions could most likely result in

 

Death

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Whilst I am sure frequent tank draining is important I am not sure comparing aeroplanes and our canal boats is particular helpful. First the fuels are different, I am not 100% sure but I have yet to hear of a diesel powered modern day aircraft. I suppose jet fuel is closer to diesel but it still not the same. The demand for aviation fuel must be huge when compared with narrowboat fuel so I suspect even light aircraft fuel will be more readily available without the bio-content be it ethanol or FAME. The turn over of fuel in aircraft tanks is I suspect many times higher than that in narrowboat tanks and the degree of turnover has an effect on the propensity for bug growth. I suspect the maintenance of aircraft and their fuel & fuel systems is far more effective than a typical narrowboats because regulations are in force to ensure it.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Whilst I am sure frequent tank draining is important I am not sure comparing aeroplanes and our canal boats is particular helpful. First the fuels are different, I am not 100% sure but I have yet to hear of a diesel powered modern day aircraft. I suppose jet fuel is closer to diesel but it still not the same. The demand for aviation fuel must be huge when compared with narrowboat fuel so I suspect even light aircraft fuel will be more readily available without the bio-content be it ethanol or FAME. The turn over of fuel in aircraft tanks is I suspect many times higher than that in narrowboat tanks and the degree of turnover has an effect on the propensity for bug growth. I suspect the maintenance of aircraft and their fuel & fuel systems is far more effective than a typical narrowboats because regulations are in force to ensure it.

 

When we didn't have access to Avgas we used to use 4* petrol, it did have a bit more water in it, but you could drain it off each morning.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When we didn't have access to Avgas we used to use 4* petrol, it did have a bit more water in it, but you could drain it off each morning.

and I suspect there was a record that was kept to prove you did just that.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

and I suspect there was a record that was kept to prove you did just that.

I don't ever recall making any 'declaration' except to fill in the fuel log with the number of gallons dispensed (it was 45 years ago)

We had a trailer built that carried 3x '45 gallon' drums, it had a lid over it so they could not be seen. Went down to the local Petrol station and filled them up.

I don't know if the '30 litres maximum in cans' was a law then , but the village garage was always pleased to see us.

 

With hind sight it was a bit naughty, in the event of a car-crash it could have been quite nasty.

 

As far as the aircraft was concerned, never went above 2,000 feet or got into the icing-zone so it wasn't an issue.

[MHS]

Pumped out 10 litres from the tank this morning. There was only maybe 250ml of sludge and emulsified fuel. 

Fuel separator is clear again this morning and then after running for 1 hour.

I’ve learnt my lesson and will be keeping an eye on it more regularly in the future 

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 a diesel powered modern day aircraft.

Devious! I was going to bring up the Jumo engines from WWII

 

On the other hand:

 

Quote

“Jet fuel is diesel,” says Scott Martin, Research Faculty at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University

 

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/what-is-jet-fuel/

 

So all modern turbines run on 'diesel'

 

Richard

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, RLWP said:

Devious! I was going to bring up the Jumo engines from WWII

 

On the other hand:

 

 

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/what-is-jet-fuel/

 

So all modern turbines run on 'diesel'

 

Richard

Except that piece says it kerosene that I suspect most of us know as paraffin or 28 second heating oil. Be it rather less refined than ESSO blue etc. I bet its not identical to the 28 second oil or, come to that, the diesel we use.

[Momac]

3 hours ago, MHS said:

Pumped out 10 litres from the tank this morning. There was only maybe 250ml of sludge and emulsified fuel. 

Fuel separator is clear again this morning and then after running for 1 hour.

I’ve learnt my lesson and will be keeping an eye on it more regularly in the future 

I hope that has cured it for you.

[MHS]

42 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I hope that has cured it for you.

Hopefully it has. We cruised for 5 hours today with no issues. I will check the separator and tank again in the morning. 

[DandV]

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Whilst I am sure frequent tank draining is important I am not sure comparing aeroplanes and our canal boats is particular helpful. First the fuels are different, I am not 100% sure but I have yet to hear of a diesel powered modern day aircraft. I suppose jet fuel is closer to diesel but it still not the same. The demand for aviation fuel must be huge when compared with narrowboat fuel so I suspect even light aircraft fuel will be more readily available without the bio-content be it ethanol or FAME. The turn over of fuel in aircraft tanks is I suspect many times higher than that in narrowboat tanks and the degree of turnover has an effect on the propensity for bug growth. I suspect the maintenance of aircraft and their fuel & fuel systems is far more effective than a typical narrowboats because regulations are in force to ensure it.

Both Jet A1 and automotive diesel fuel are middle distillates with Jet A1 at the lighter end.

Many Jet turbine engines will run on automotive diesel, but in air restarting would not have been reliable enough. The Hughes 500 turbine engine was rated for automotive diesel use, but fuel companies would not countenance it because of the lack of end to end custody, release note signatories for diesel fuel.

As an oil company engineer I was once contacted by a concerned petrol station owner, during a flood emergency. He had a Hughes 500 helicopter engine running alongside his forecourt diesel pump wanting diesel.

I was put on to the pilot, who explained he still had desperate people on roof tops with water still rising, short of fuel, and low cloud preventing a return over the hills to refuel at the airport. I stated the company position, not approved, but suggested if they were going to anyway, the dealer dipped the supplying tank with water finding paste on the dip stick, they took a nozzle sample, and checked for water. 

Thankfully the news that night was of daring rescues but nothing on helicopter crashes

Conversely only one fuel bulk is shipped to McMurdo, Scott Base in Antarctica for both aviation and compression engine use in power generation, plant and vehicles. It is basically Jet A1 with a lubricity additive for the diesels.

Also the many Naval vessels that use turbine engines for get up and go, can run these on the readily available llcal diesel fuel when refuelled on off shore deployment,

One installation in my charge was the refuelling installation for a huge dairy factory. This one factory processed nearly a third of New Zealand's total dairy output.

In the season up to 2million litres a day of this highly perishable liquid was collected by a fleet of up to 360 truck and trailer units, working 24hrs.all refilled from one facility that I had designed and was responsible for it's operation.

Failure to refuel these trucks would constitute a national environmental emergency.

The installation was designed as two co hosted separate systems. Fuel deliveries from the supplying terminal were always to one, or other, never both.

The fuel pumps were fitted with aviation fail safe filters, incredibly expensive, that with water, swell and block, and the installation was included in the daily round of local aviation dispensing facilities checks.

Basic aircraft operation still requires the low tech daily low point draining of fuel tanks and visual check for foreign matter and water. Too many boat owners never do this, instead relying on last resort fuel line filters, and magic potion additives. 

Supplied diesel bug, or water contaminated fuel was rare, but invariably resulted in a cluster of breakdowns, embarrassing, but at least made identifying the problem easy.

Isolated diesel bug and water contaminated fuel in boats, and certain cars, triumph heralds, and PA Vauxhills, relatively common.

Boat bug infestations pissed me off after all the care I, and others had taken to ensure the delivered fuel was good, yet boat owners negligently managed their storage, but investigating still cost my time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by DandV