Solar

[RufusR]

Oil tanker electrician? Lordy god help you. I work with Marine oil tankers . They think differently  is the polite description . 

 

Best practice is to replace all your batteries at once so maybe dump the front ones and try and make do with the new three until you need to replace them .  I agree with others move it all to the back near to charge controller , inverter , charger etc. Also invest in a shunt battery monitor so you can see what’s really happening. Victron bmv is lovely but expensive , Renogy make a decent one for about 90 squid but it’s out of stock currently due to covid , then there is cheap Chinese one available on Amazon  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battery-Monitor-Voltmeter-Motorhome-Lead-Acid/dp/B07CTKYFTG Normally I wouldn’t recommend a cheap Chinese knock off but Will Prowse seems to recommend it 

 

so should be ok as he knows his eggs . 

 

Doesnt have Bluetooth or anything but will do the trick if on a budget . Once you can see what’s what you can decide if what needs doing to fix . 

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you have a problem with either the condition of the batteries (undercharged and sulphated) or the instrumentation calibration / set up is incorrect, or you think you have a 600Ah domestic bank.

 

If you have everything turned off (Including the fridge) with only the webby on, and, on a 600Ah battery bank you have gone from 100% to 50% (ie 300Ah used) just from 'dusk to dawn' there is something wrong.

 

Are all of the batteries connected to your 'domestics' bank ?

Are you fooling yourself that the 'new' 135Ah batteries have been well charged ?

Is you monitoring equipment monitoring the 'total' battery bank ?

How can you use 300Ah overnight (a 'normal' full day usage is generally around 100-120Ah)

I know I have 3 x 135 ah newish batteries, and three others, we told the controller we have 600ah capacity.

I suspect the LED voltage indicator at the bow is not telling me the truth as I see it, I suppose the new wiring up and the extra solar has altered the display readings.

Presumably I am interpreting it incorrectly,  perhaps it is only reading the voltage of the Bow Bank. I don't know. Would it really drop from 13.00 when I go to bed,  to 12. 24 overnight? It is now [10.30am ] 12.32

 

As far as I can understand all the batteries get all the power incoming, from shorepower or solar.

I usually start the engine with the engine battery isolator on, and the others off.

The amps drawn take about 15 mins to go from 30 to <5amps.

Solar [new]

I think , from what the electrician has explained [and I think I have now had three electrician explanations], :

Today

After 1.5 hours of sunshine the solar controller shows batteries at  100% 

The controller voltage is 14.4 v where the picture shows a picture of the solar array , The slow green flashing light means "in charging"

The controller amperage is 11.44A, now 30 mins l8ter 6.6A

My conclusion is that the batteries are presently at 14.4 and that the the controller is happily pushing more in to the batteries.

No way would 1.5 hours of sunshine boost the batteries  

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[WotEver]

It’s a mess. I refer you to post 74. 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Don't forget that he was a highly qualified marine electrician who fitted out oil-tankers and such like, not just a tin-slug sparky !!

I refer the honourable gentleman to post 51...

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It’s a mess. I refer you to post 74. 

I refer the honourable gentleman to post 51...

I know - its like keep knocking on the door but there is nobody in.

 

All of he tradesmen employed seem to generate more problems than they solve, its a weird situation.

I reckon if Jo didn't have bad luck, she'd have no luck at all.

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

Morning folks and folkesses,

not so sunny today, a true test for the new solar set up.

There is one LED voltage indicator, it is at the bow, the state of health of batteries was previously monitored by this plus turning the engine on and checking the draw [analogue amp meter], which varied from +30 amps to 5 amps, time to run engine 7 hours worse case,, and four hours a few times, mostly once a week, they never went below 12.1 as far as I remember.

Now , after one full charging day [showing 100% most of the afternoon], with bright sunshine and the solar actually moderating output, the led is showing 12.24 not long after sunrise, but battery on Epever controller is 55% I have had fridge on  most of the day, off most of the night. and the Webasto running maybe three or four hours overnight.

We set the battery capacity at 600ah AGM to reflect 3x135 ah newish batteries, 2 bow batteries, one starter battery. If I increase nominal capacity will I get the batteries charge up a notch to eg 12.4, is it worth bothering about tweaking ah capacity when it all seems to be working? 

At this moment [06.30, weak sunlight due to cloud, the panels are puting in 0.7amps, I need to turn off Webasto and fridge or run the engine to boost batteries, maybe , being AGM they won't be damaged at 55%, but it won't do them any good, also I expect older batteries and younger batteries, , being in different banks, to respond "individually" .

I have a notion that the Epever kicks them in to touch [aka equalising] about the 28th of the month, or did I dream that?

The forecast is bright sun from 08.00 to 19.30, so I'll leave them alone today, but I would prefer to boost with the engine for an hour or two to put in 30-45 amps

Have you definitely established exactly what batteries are being charged by what source? Not guess, actually know. Personally I would have doubts the engine battery is being charged form the MPPT controller.

 

Second point 12.24V rested voltage (not the solar charging voltage which will be higher than the rested voltage) is indicative of roughly a true 50% state of charge. We only say 12.2 to 12.3 is time to charge so we rarely discharge to below 50% and thus maximise the batteries cyclic life.

 

Still trying to work out why a competent 12V electrician would put a set of batteries as far away for the alternator as possible unless they are specifically for a bow thruster and in that case charging needs careful thinking about, often involving very thick cables the length of the boat or an inverter and battery charger. I am with the others in that ALL the domestic batteries should be in one bank and as close to the charging source when cruising as possible.

 

Then there is a question about why you feel the need to start with what I take to be the domestic banks turned off. One way or another there shoudl be some form of automatic isolation system so one source or multiple sources can charge all banks but as soon as the source shuts down one bank can't discharge into the others.

 

I think you asked about mixing old and new batteries in a bank. Best practice is not to do so because you never know when an older battery will fail and the failure is usually an internal short circuit. This will discharge the whole bank and make recharging the bank difficult. If the front and rear banks are both being charged I wonder if one of the front batteries is shorting internally and "robbing" a lot of Amps. Once you understand why its best not to mix old and new banks as long as you keep a very careful and frequent eye open for signs of a failing battery you can mix old and new batteries but strictly at you own risk. No professional should agree to doing so unless you signed a disclaimer in case an old battery wrecked the new set.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[LadyG]

I know it's a mess!!!!!!!

That is why I have consulted 4 or five, or maybe six electricians, only three have actually done anything, and now it seems the second one has done nothing usefull, just a quick fix. I know it was  fix, but assumed it was working towards a better system.

The first one did not advise me to remove the bow batteries, but as he had removed four aged batteries, I assumed the others were still useful. He stopped working on my boat, but did tell me he had worked out how to proceed.

 

Ok, so, put the inverter in the stern. Connect it to three batteries [450 nominal  ah]. Will this do for now, the new fridge ad new solar more efficient, 

Add a new mains charger, a 240 volt wire must exist from well deck to stern already, where the 240 volt consumer unit things live.

Run a new 12 volt cable from the stern to the fridge [it turns out the previous electrician put an undersized wire in !!!!!!!!!! in spite of assuring me otherwiseI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suppose I could ask for a refund, it was a lot of money down the drain. 

 

[LadyG]

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Have you definitely established exactly what batteries are being charged by what source? Not guess, actually know. Personally I would have doubts the engine battery is being charged form the MPPT controller.

 

Second point 12.24V rested voltage (not the solar charging voltage which will be higher than the rested voltage) is indicative of roughly a true 50% state of charge. We only say 12.2 to 12.3 is time to charge so we rarely discharge to below 50% and thus maximise the batteries cyclic life.

 

 

 

 

 

It's an hour's job for me to actually put a meter thingy on the batteries, it's kinda, "not my job" I just want a simple system that works on it's own, and I can have my comms and my fridge, really , once the system is set up, I don't want to do any more than I do now, ie keep an eye on things.

One electrician tells me the LED display in the bow is the battery voltage

What  I am reading is an LED gauge it's VERY unlikely to be battery voltage as  tested by a meter on the pos and neg battery posts

A.N  other electrician says it is the charge at this moment in time.

Both are possible if they did something to the wiring.

IT HAS ALTERED SINCE THE NEW SOLAR.

The LED normally incrass when th sun is out, it has not movd today, so something has changed. [there is red/blach thinish wire at th stern of uknkown function, but "liv"

If it was easy to get the bow batteries cut out  by removing their input and output, why did none of them suggest that?

It's not to dificult surely: , after a year I have now decided it would be a good plan to move verything to the strn, would that not be obvious to any boat elctrician?

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

It's an hour's job for me to actually put a meter thingy on the batteries, it's kinda, "not my job" I just want a simple system that works on it's own, and I can have my comms and my fridge, really , once the system is sset up, I don't want to do any more.

Oe electrician tells me the LED display in the bow is the battery voltage

The other one says it is the charge at this moment in time.

Both are possible if they did something to the wiring.

If it was asy to get the bow batteries cut out  by remiving their input and output, why di they not suggest that?

 

 

The LED thing if its what I think it is is simply giving the voltage at the time you look at it. That might be battery voltage or it might be the charging voltage. One thing it is not is "the charge at this moment in time" although if there is no charge source operating and no loads on the battery you can use that voltage to infer the state of charge. Personally I would not trust the thing to be absolutely accurate.

 

Its the physical work needed to provide a simple system that just works for much of the time but optimum battery life and reliability will require  some effort from you. Once you have a decent ammeter and voltmeter or the battery monitor mentioned above the effort will mainly require taking readings a few times a day, understanding what is normal and if any are abnormal finding out why. Plus cleaning battery terminals once a year and if wet open cell batteries (the ones that you can more easily diagnose for faults) topping up as required.

 

Designing the system is not difficult, working out the cable sizes and installing it may be.

[RufusR]

Ignore all the state of charge monitors esp the ep ever one unless they are connected to a shunt . They can or accurately know from voltage alone if your batteries are charged . I currently ( soon to be removed ) have an epever battery monitor , it will tell you batteries are full the minute the voltage hits 14.4 which is the absorb voltage. This is just the beginning of the absorb cycle and the batteries are no where near full . Absorb will hold the voltage at the absorb voltage and reduce the amps for a set time ( or end amps if you have a very clever system ) until the batteries are full then go to float . All this assumes you have enough power coming in from solar to do it . Also the flashing line light on epever indicates batteries are full and not taking charge but it lies , you are actually just entering absorb stage and if you watch you will see the amps reduce as the volts remain steady until the volts drop to 13.6 or whatever the float is set at and amps drop to low maintenance level . Epever mppt works ok but the monitoring and charge indicators and the fact it all locks up regularly are garbage . People bang on about them coz they are cheap but I would not buy another ,save up and get a decent one if looking to replace it . If keeping ignore all the bs battery info coming from it and get a shunt based monitor . Everything else speaks with forked tongue .

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I know it's a mess!!!!!!!

That is why I have consulted 4 or five, or maybe six electricians, only three have actually done anything, and now it seems the second one has done nothing usefull, just a quick fix. I know it was  fix, but assumed it was working towards a better system.

The first one did not advise me to remove the bow batteries, but as he had removed four aged batteries, I assumed the others were still useful. He stopped working on my boat, but did tell me he had worked out how to proceed.

 

Ok, so, put the inverter in the stern. Connect it to three batteries [450 nominal  ah]. Will this do for now, the new fridge ad new solar more efficient, 

Add a new mains charger, a 240 volt wire must exist from well deck to stern already, where the 240 volt consumer unit things live.

Run a new 12 volt cable from the stern to the fridge [it turns out the previous electrician put an undersized wire in !!!!!!!!!! in spite of assuring me otherwiseI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suppose I could ask for a refund, it was a lot of money down the drain. 

 

 

That all seems like a plan that should work but there is nothing there about charge splitting/joining. If its a twin alternator engine then its just the solar charge that needs that unless you have a twin output solar charger but even then its questionable if the engine battery benefits from solar charging while out cruising.

 

A mains battery charger may have two outputs and if so all well and good but if not its simple enough to us a VSR (voltage sensitive relay) to combine/isolate both the  solar and mains charging as required.

 

How large is this inverter and what sort of loads and for how long are you going to run from it. If its a small 200 watt inverter then you plan to use just 450Ah of batteries shoudl be OK but with talk of fridge and Webasto I think you may be pushing your luck at times but monitoring the amps and volts would soon tell you.

[RufusR]

Also all these leccy’s apart From the tanker one are they marine electricians who understand dc systems or house sparks who from experience don’t have a clue about dc ?

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, RufusR said:

Ignore all the state of charge monitors esp the ep ever one unless they are connected to a shunt . They can or accurately know from voltage alone if your batteries are charged . I currently ( soon to be removed ) have an epever battery monitor , it will tell you batteries are full the minute the voltage hits 14.4 which is the absorb voltage. This is just the beginning of the absorb cycle and the batteries are no where near full . Absorb will hold the voltage at the absorb voltage and reduce the amps for a set time ( or end amps if you have a very clever system ) until the batteries are full then go to float . All this assumes you have enough power coming in from solar to do it . Also the flashing line light on epever indicates batteries are full and not taking charge but it lies , you are actually just entering absorb stage and if you watch you will see the amps reduce as the volts remain steady until the volts drop to 13.6 or whatever the float is set at and amps drop to low maintenance level . Epever mppt works ok but the monitoring and charge indicators and the fact it all locks up regularly are garbage . People bang on about them coz they are cheap but I would not buy another ,save up and get a decent one if looking to replace it . If keeping ignore all the bs battery info coming from it and get a shunt based monitor . Everything else speaks with forked tongue .

 

Agreed but LadyG must understand even the shunt based monitors have a forked tongue on some scales

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, LadyG said:

It's an hour's job for me to actually put a meter thingy on the batteries, it's kinda, "not my job" I just want a simple system that works on it's own, and I can have my comms and my fridge, really , once the system is set up, I don't want to do any more than I do now, ie keep an eye on things.

One electrician tells me the LED display in the bow is the battery voltage

What  I am reading is an LED gauge it's VERY unlikely to be battery voltage as  tested by a meter on the pos and neg battery posts

The other electrician says it is the charge at this moment in time.

Both are possible if they did something to the wiring.

The LED normally incrass when th sun is out, it has not movd today, so something has changed. [there is red/blach thinish wire at th stern of uknkown function, but "liv"

If it was easy to get the bow batteries cut out  by removing their input and output, why did none of them suggest that?

It's not to dificult surely: , after a year I have now decided it would be a good plan to move verything to the strn, would that not be obvious to any boat elctrician?

 

 

 

I'd really suggest that you either take the boat to, or get a good WELL KNOWN RECOMMENDED inland skip 'wirer-upper', you don't have the knowledge you do it yourself, or even to tell the expert how to do it, but you do seem to have somehow driven away 5 or 6 electricians.

 

It will cost money, you cannot do it 'on a budget', but longer term it will save you money.

 

It may well be 3 or 4 days work (£50 per hour labour) to rip out the old system and replace with new (correctly specified) stuff.

If your 'new' 135Ah batteries are sulphated they may also need replacing (you can kill batteries in a matter of days by not charging correctly)

Add in component costs, monitoring equipment and new batteries and I'd say its a £2000 job.

 

Why do you need batteries in the bow if you don't have a bow-thruster fitted ?

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Have you definitely established exactly what batteries are being charged by what source? Not guess, actually know. Personally I would have doubts the engine battery is being charged form the MPPT controller.

 

Second point 12.24V rested voltage (not the solar charging voltage which will be higher than the rested voltage) is indicative of roughly a true 50% state of charge. We only say 12.2 to 12.3 is time to charge so we rarely discharge to below 50% and thus maximise the batteries cyclic life.

 

Still trying to work out why a competent 12V electrician would put a set of batteries as far away for the alternator as possible unless they are specifically for a bow thruster and in that case charging needs careful thinking about, often involving very thick cables the length of the boat or an inverter and battery charger. I am with the others in that ALL the domestic batteries should be in one bank and as close to the charging source when cruising as possible.

 

Then there is a question about why you feel the need to start with what I take to be the domestic banks turned off. One way or another there shoudl be some form of automatic isolation system so one source or multiple sources can charge all banks but as soon as the source shuts down one bank can't discharge into the others.

 

I think you asked about mixing old and new batteries in a bank. Best practice is not to do so because you never know when an older battery will fail and the failure is usually an internal short circuit. This will discharge the whole bank and make recharging the bank difficult. If the front and rear banks are both being charged I wonder if one of the front batteries is shorting internally and "robbing" a lot of Amps. Once you understand why its best not to mix old and new banks as long as you keep a very careful and frequent eye open for signs of a failing battery you can mix old and new batteries but strictly at you own risk. No professional should agree to doing so unless you signed a disclaimer in case an old battery wrecked the new set.

 

 

Ok, to clarify, the first owner probbly decided a bow thruster was to be fitted [probably not in the original design]

The thing was not maintained, the bow sunk, the bow tubes welded up. 

The owner, [considered by himself] to be a competent electrician decided to use the bow batteries, and it all went downhill from then.

I bought the boat. On the day things worked, as long as they had shore power most things worked.  The batteries were probably defunct.

Things worked for a day then needed shorepower.

and so on.

I  could not understand the electrics, I was recommended an electrician by the local  "not so helpfull boater next door. Electrician aseemed like a nice boy, I asked him if he had plenty experience:. 20 years in RN He stopped working for me, that was his choice, but better to tell me!

I went through a few more who were not capable, though I warned them it was not easy before they came to look. 

I found one in Hull, he told me he was a wonder [marine] electrician, spent a lot of money, got very little return. He put a small inverter in the bow, removing [on my instruction] two big inverters.

He put undesized wiring in for the new fridge  and took £325 offf me that one day,     he has never been heard of since.

 

I assumed the standard starting would be to use the starter battery [not "both", I am salty water sailor].

Then push amps bck in to starter battery for 20 miens, thn charge up the rest.

 

The starter battery has an isolator the domestic bank has an isolator, the bow baatteries have an isoltor, I assume they all take IN power/electrickey via the large positive busbar, but that when I want to use the engine battery I can isolate it from the Domestic Bank and from the Bow Bank. I would have thought the starter battery is CCA trype, the Domestic is deep cycle, th Bow Bank possibly/probably  CCA

I think all batteries are charged by solar, this isnot established as the new solar was only put in two days ago. 

There are three battery banks, they are each "independant" in that each bank is its own master, the starter bank, the bow bank, the domestic bank

I think the alternator may charge all three, or one or two if asked by the elehant ear isolators.

I think the solar sort of works similarly, it used to, but we have intsalld a new solar system, thrown the old one away, and now I am not 100% sure!

, 

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[RufusR]

Also did I see somewhere further back you were equalising your batteries ? If so and they are normal agms this alone may have killed the new ones , pretty much all agm’s will be severally damaged by equalising cycles .

 

sorry to sound like such a doom gloomer 

 

have to agree with Alan I think you are gonna have to throw some money at this one with a proper narrowboat electrician 

Edited May 28, 2020 by RufusR

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I know it's a mess!!!!!!!

That is why I have consulted 4 or five, or maybe six electricians, only three have actually done anything, and now it seems the second one has done nothing usefull, just a quick fix. I know it was  fix, but assumed it was working towards a better system.

The first one did not advise me to remove the bow batteries, but as he had removed four aged batteries, I assumed the others were still useful. He stopped working on my boat, but did tell me he had worked out how to proceed.

 

Ok, so, put the inverter in the stern. Connect it to three batteries [450 nominal  ah]. Will this do for now, the new fridge ad new solar more efficient, 

Add a new mains charger, a 240 volt wire must exist from well deck to stern already, where the 240 volt consumer unit things live.

Run a new 12 volt cable from the stern to the fridge [it turns out the previous electrician put an undersized wire in !!!!!!!!!! in spite of assuring me otherwiseI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suppose I could ask for a refund, it was a lot of money down the drain. 

 

What do your two batteries at the bow actually feed.
 

What size are the cables for the fridge and how far is it from your batteries at the back

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, RufusR said:

Also all these leccy’s apart From the tanker one are they marine electricians who understand dc systems or house sparks who from experience don’t have a clue about dc ?

I don'tknow this  tanker electrician, unless his name is 

Red Herring !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The three that have worked on the boat claim to be marine electricians, with 20+ to 40 years experience each, RN, RYA, BMTF. I am sure the first and the last [current one] are competant, number one gave up for whatever reasons, I do not know.

The owner of the boat put the boat electrics in, I don't think he has any understading about boats, but you would think he would learn, there are no manuals on board. He has not been back to ask if everthing is OK, that tells it's own story, if he had come back and stripped everything out, I could have got it all working by now.

Each electrician hs to work out what is going on, that takes about four hours, and requires some confidence to actually change things,  

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

but with talk of fridge.

She has just bought a new 12V fridge... a Waeco CR50 I think.

 

Given that she doesn't have a bowthruster fitted, ( I am recalling that she has a Vetus Bowthruster, but no tube, so assuming not fitted), there is no reason for 2 "domestic" battery banks, and no reason for batteries at the front. I am amazed that none of the electricians who have taken money from her have suggested/insisted on some kind of monitoring... a NASA BM1 or BM2, a Victron BMV7**, or even the Chinese one that Will Prowse reviewed.

 

The whole thing needs a good looking at and a complete review but, right now, I am wondering whether a couple of days of running the engine for about 8 hours, would be worth doing to be "reasonably" sure of getting those that are being charged up to 100% SOC.

 

At the end of this if she turned everything off for an hour, or so, and measured the voltages of each battery at their individual terminals, she would have an idea which are being charged by the alternator and solar combined. Assuming some would have reached full charge, and show a voltage of around 12.7V or more, she would be able to see whether any were not fully charged and, either "suspect", or not part of the charging circuit.

 

At the same time, whilst the engine is running, she could check the voltage of each battery at its terminals to see whether all are being charged, (14V+ with alternator running?), or not.

 

She could also just remove the front batteries from the circuit and isolate, (tape), the ends of the removed cables. The three "new" batteries should be enough for a domestic situation, (100/120Ah per day), to provide a couple of days of power before needing a good day of engine running to get them back up to 100%.

 

Hopefully, whatever is being charged, or not being charged, the starter is only used when starting the engine, and running the engine will keep topped up, so she need only worry about the 3 "new" batteries in the rear battery bank.

 

She doesnt seem to want to fit a shunt based monitor as it would take "an hour". I'm assuming she has the ability, but not the inclination. Given her experience with expert electricians, I would suggest she finds the inclination.... if she is sure she knows how to do it.

 

I could go on, but the above would seem to be a logical and sensible process.

 

As mentioned above, the best solution would be to find a boat electrician who has a good reputation, knows what they are doing, and give them 4 or 5 days and a bundle of money to sort it out - not easy, but there is someone who has been mentioned here who has been mentioned by more than a few, who fits solar and other electrical stuff, and who doesn't charge the earth. He might travel to LadyG, or she might have to make her way to him. She might also have to make do for a while until he is available. I cant recall his name, but someone here will.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

I took her hour to mean her batteries are so inaccessible it would take an hour to measure their voltages.

 

My worry is that with just 450 Ah (3 x 150 Ah) batteries and when away from the shoreline during the winter she may be risking over discharging the batteries.

 

I fear personal effort will be required to resolve this in a manner that is acceptable. There is too much we don't know. I have no idea what three "elephant ear switches" are. As there are three of them and there are three battery banks they sound like ordinary isolators. If so it is in my experience uncommon for them to have anything to do with charge splitting. Just to further confuse the issue one might be a combine bank switch so she could start from the doemestic bank if the engaging battery is flat. However I rather doubt that but my remote doubt in now way makes it fact. Personal wire tracing and investigation is required. I think that any of several of us from the forum spending a morning on the boat would clarify things considerably. Pity its so far from home.

 

Until its established exactly what equipment is on the boat  and how its configured I suspect any more money spent could well be money wasted.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, RufusR said:

Also did I see somewhere further back you were equalising your batteries ? If so and they are normal agms this alone may have killed the new ones , pretty much all agm’s will be severally damaged by equalising cycles .

 

sorry to sound like such a doom gloomer 

 

have to agree with Alan I think you are gonna have to throw some money at this one with a proper narrowboat electrician 

ffs!, I've thrown quite a lot of money, money has nnot been the problem, getting someone who knows what thy are doing is the problem

I have not driven them awy.

1] First electrician excuses

A boat sank in my marina

A boat in my marina is being seized by the baliffs,

I am in your marina but am now going to drive past your boat and go home, without telling you, even though I spoke to you an hour ago

Ditto, except I won't answer my phone either.

 

Second person

Wife is disabled. I am her carer

 

Third electrician,[marina basd, January:  busy  does not respond to an email detailing the problem.

 

Fourth electrician, measures up panels and decided I need to move the centre line so he can fit the panels.

 

Feifth electrician: pay me £800  and I will do a few minor things but not fix the solar or the wiring.

 

Sixth electrician : very very expensinive, puts an undersized cable in place, he took three hours to find this special cable, and that was the end of him, he thinks solar is useless and recommends an absorption fridge even though I am getting rid of existing fridge 'cos it eats electrcity. 

 

Seventh electrician, so far so good, owns three boats!

 

 

I 

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[ditchcrawler]

Why dont you post a few photos of what you have got. Did you see the questions I asked? Do you own a multimeter to take some voltage readings with?

 

 

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I took her hour to mean her batteries are so inaccessible it would take an hour to measure their voltages.

 

My worry is that with just 450 Ah (3 x 150 Ah) batteries and when away from the shoreline during the winter she may be risking over discharging the batteries.

 

I fear personal effort will be required to resolve this in a manner that is acceptable. There is too much we don't know. I have no idea what three "elephant ear switches" are. As there are three of them and there are three battery banks they sound like ordinary isolators. If so it is in my experience uncommon for them to have anything to do with charge splitting. Just to further confuse the issue one might be a combine bank switch so she could start from the doemestic bank if the engaging battery is flat. However I rather doubt that but my remote doubt in now way makes it fact. Personal wire tracing and investigation is required. I think that any of several of us from the forum spending a morning on the boat would clarify things considerably. Pity its so far from home.

 

Until its established exactly what equipment is on the boat  and how its configured I suspect any more money spent could well be money wasted.

I have a tablet, a phone,  mifi a 375 watt Victron inverter, the tablet is on maybe 24/7

one water pump 12 v

I could not have less, givn it'se 2020.

a few 12 v LED ligths, little used.

A new Dometic 12 v fridge might arrive from China, soonr/later. The existing 12 v Coolmatic eats electricity. It gets electric from front end, as does the water pump. I have no idea about 12v  shower electric wiring.

The current elctrician is OK, and he is happy to fit what I want, and probably capable. He is the only one who has got the solar working, others just swerved that, as indeed he wanted to do: easy jobs first, but I insisted that was first on the list.

I expect to use a marina from time to time in winter, as well as cc ing, I will need a 20 amp Victron inverter fitted. I don't see that as a great problem, but of course I don't have to do it! There is an ancient charger there, it used to boil the flooded lead acids [since binned]

There is no point in trying to trace wires ,it would require dismantling fittings, most are where they are expected to be. it is better to decide what is required, and try to fit it., see if it works, see if anything has stopped working. That is the approach at this moment in time.

I rarely use the shower 'cos water goes in but the waste does not go out for more than two showers!

I have dismantled most bits except the pump. I have other thing to do,, if it does not work, the elctrician can advise/sort it.

Webaso screams like a banshee apparently that is not usual, even the neighbours have complained!

Things have changed since the solar was fitted, on Tuesday, I think thei msterious thinnish red and black wires at the stern might be connected to the  LED gauge in the bow which remins stubbornly at 12.21, it used to soar up to 13.7 on nice sunny day

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[LadyG]

56 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Why dont you post a few photos of what you have got. Did you see the questions I asked? Do you own a multimeter to take some voltage readings with?

 

 

Sorry i have no idea how to post photos,  the electrical gubbins are all hidden from sight, it won't help.

As xplained earlier, it would take me at least an hour to get at almost anything, and another hour to put it all back together. I've already done that once this week.

 

I can't answer these detailed echnical Qs, that is why I pay  someone to sort out. this sort of thing, and what one electrician tells me is not what another ttells me, or maybe I did not understand, or maybe things have changed.

Essentially all I want to know is, should I abandon bow batteries, and should i then put them in the  battery bank number 2 in order not to mix new  with old, how much better will it be,

I am not sure if I should bother, are the bow batteires really so bad they are dragging to whole AH capacity down, I doubt it, what do I know!

The bow batteries are paired, the stern btteries are triplicated in another bank which is the main bank. .

All I know is I had 3x135g AGM fitted, and that should be enough for autonomy in summer, but untill the new fridge is fitted I won't know, but there is no reason to radically alter the wiring before the new  fridge arrives. 

The fridge is only 7 -10m from the stern might be a bit more as the wire has to go hither and thither., but of course I don't know if the wiring is from the stern or from the bow, and I am not going to pull any more things apart at this stage. in theory, it should be possible to throw out old frdge, wire up new one, but any electricin will be very wary of using some unknown wiring in case it is unsafe. I am quite sure no one else would bother.

This new fridge will be drawing maybe 5 amps but it should not be running as often as the old one, w will look at power rating of the old one, same make, should be in the same ball park.

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That all seems like a plan that should work but there is nothing there about charge splitting/joining. If its a twin alternator engine then its just the solar charge that needs that unless you have a twin output solar charger but even then its questionable if the engine battery benefits from solar charging while out cruising.

 

A mains battery charger may have two outputs and if so all well and good but if not its simple enough to us a VSR (voltage sensitive relay) to combine/isolate both the  solar and mains charging as required.

 

How large is this inverter and what sort of loads and for how long are you going to run from it. If its a small 200 watt inverter then you plan to use just 450Ah of batteries shoudl be OK but with talk of fridge and Webasto I think you may be pushing your luck at times but monitoring the amps and volts would soon tell you.

I thought the Wbasto was 12v. it certainly is not wired to the new invertor.

There is one 375 w inverter and it feeds a 240 volt socket for my tablet, phone, mifi.

The fridge is 12v Dometic circa 2004

The new fridge will be the same, just more efficient.

Yes i am sure we can tweak things with gadgets, , but not now, we need to get things working

There is only one alternator.

I have a Sterling split charge diode thing, it is still in it's box, I am not even sure if it is the right thing, no one seems interested in fitting it. I just had a idea they were essential kit. Maybe I was thinking about a VSR , I don't know

I can get a 20 amp Victro phoenix charger £200, no frills, but you are saying i need three outputs, i assuming a starter, a domestic and another 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Sorry i have no idea how to post photos,  the electrical gubbins are all hidden from sight, it won't help.

As xplained earlier, it wold take me at least an hour to get at almost anything, and another hour to put it all back together. I've already done ronce this week.

 

Ii can't answer these technical Qs, that is why I pay  someone to sort it out. this sort of thing. 

Essentially all i wanted to know is, should I abandon bow batteries, and should i then put them in the  battery bank number 2 in order not to mix new  with old, how much better will it be, i am now sure if I should bother, are the bow batteires really so bad they are dragging to whole AH capacity down, I doubt it, what do I knw!

The bow batteries are paired, the sten btteries are triplicated in another bank which is the main bank. .

All I know is I had 3x135g AGM fitted, and that should be enough fo autonomy in summer, but untill the new fridge is fitted I won't know, but there is no reason to radically alter the wiring before the new  fridge arrives. 

The fridge is only 7 -10m from the stern, but of course I don't know if the wiring is from the stern or from the bow, and I am not going to pull any more things apart at this stage. in theory, it should be possible to throw out old frdge, wire up new one, but any electricin will be ery wary of using some unknown wiring in case it is unsafe.

I fear that is the main problem, you seem to think it is easier to stay ignorant of the technical things and if your persist in that and only being willing to pay people to deal with it for you you might as well put a big notice on your face saying  "please rip me off".  This is especially true if you go your own way and seek your own electricians rather than ask here for recommendations. Most boat electricians who are any good will have long lead times for jobs such as yours because of the volume of work they have.

 

I have already told you that as long as the bow batteries are not internally shorting you can mix them with the new batteries PROVIDING you are willing and able to monitor them sufficiently so you can remove any at the first sign of internal shorts. If the bow batteries are not shorting they will not be pulling the charge away from the newer bank If they are then they will be. There is no way I or any other forum member can tell you if your bow batteries are internally shorting without visiting the boat with equipment and doing some simple tests. I could spend time telling what such test are but as you do not seem to feel it necessary to do much except pay out money I won't waste my time. If you ask i will tell you.

 

If the bow batteries are just sulphated then they will recharge quickly and thus make little difference to the charging of the new bank but at the same time they will add little to the bank's capacity and performance.

 

What calculations have you done or had done to support your claim the rear bank is enough for autonomy during the summer? I suspect you have don't have them  because if you did you would know the consumption of your MIFI and tablet. Moor up for several very dull rainy days with the new fridge and Webasto on while spending  a long time on the tablet and you may find you need to run the engine for a fair few hours every day. However with no battery monitoring equipment or with monitoring equipment and no willingness to learn its shortcomings and how to use it you will not know when you really need to charge batteries.

 

Without calculations battery monitoring equipment (voltmeter and ammeter) plus a bit of effort will allow you to be sure about the adequacy of the battery bank after a few days/weeks of use and regular monitoring.

 

I have no idea where you get the idea that no electrician would reuse existing wiring.  There are insulation tests that I could do to see if its safe. If the wire was of adequate size and I could access most of it to check for joints and the correct installation etc. I would happily use existing cables. The main problem with fridge wiring is that far too often it is undersized, not that its unsafe.

 

One way to tell which bank works  the fridge is to use the relevant isolator switch to turn the front bank off and then see what no longer works. However to do that you need to know which switch is for which bank and to establish that will require a bit of effort like disconnecting one battery bank and seeing which switch no longer has voltage on it or what items no longer work. Then reconnect and see which switch produces the same result..

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Tony Brooks