Honest Opinions Required

[Alastair]

I think that it is a poor state of affairs when a marina feels they need to do this. I liveaboard with several children, without problems.

 

I used to live on a string of moorings that included other families. One was a nightmare - their kids were always running riot. If something like a wheelbarrow was left on the bank, the kids would just take off with it to play. They regarded anything that was visible as being communal property.

 

If I ran a marina, and had such a family in it, I would be tempted to either evict them or ban all liveaboards with kids. Very sad, but there you go.

[Chertsey]

But they shouldn't. "We shall educate our own children so that we can live aboard" is putting the children second to the parents agenda.

 

No, I didn't mean that. I meant that the sort of independent minded people who educate their children at home may well be the same sort of independent minded people who can hack living on a boat. Also, if the children benefit, what does the parents' primary motivation matter?

[Dominic M]

There's a marina close to me up for sale at £900K. However, if one does a "back of envelope" business analysis I can't see more than about £150K of annual cash flow, the business consisting of three entities, viz: about 25 moorings (say £50K), two "grockle boats" that (in season) take mainly kids and OAPs on a short afternoon trip (say £10K) and "engineering" services (blacking, sub-contracted painting, engine servicing etc), say £90K tops.

 

I can't see an approriate return on any investment close to the asking price.

 

Chris

 

If it's the one I think you're referring to then it also has the West Coast Main Line right next door to it. The p/e ratio seems very high, unless there is the possibilty of gaining PP to remove the mooring basin and workshops and erect some new waterside development. Then again, there are a number of small moorings/marinas on the market with equally fabulous price tags. They're not selling though, which tells you that they are over-priced. I think much of this optimistic pricing stems from the phenomenal price achieved for the sale of Ely marina a couple of years ago.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Dominic M

[WJM]

Quote: "There's a marina close to me up for sale at £900K. However, if one does a "back of envelope" business analysis ......

........I can't see an approriate return on any investment close to the asking price."

 

 

I had a look at that one too - couldn't think of a single way to make it's potential match it's price. It is still on the market, for £850k!

[charles123]

There's a marina close to me up for sale at £900K. However, if one does a "back of envelope" business analysis I can't see more than about £150K of annual cash flow, the business consisting of three entities, viz: about 25 moorings (say £50K), two "grockle boats" that (in season) take mainly kids and OAPs on a short afternoon trip (say £10K) and "engineering" services (blacking, sub-contracted painting, engine servicing etc), say £90K tops.

 

I can't see an approriate return on any investment close to the asking price.

 

Chris

 

Chris

 

 

I have thought for a long time that I cant see how any marina is a good investment. If you look at it simplistically

 

say 100 boats if full paying £1800 each per annum thats £180k income, take off

 

Site maint £20k

Lighting £20k

Insurance and other bits and pieces £20k

Depreciation on the loan for the build of it £70k

Staff costs £30K

 

that comes to £160k

 

so profit £20k, not worth the bother, can make more leaving the money in the bank without the hastle and risk

 

Charles

[charles123]

There are many elements to this, one consideration from the marina owner will be "how would the resale value of my marina be affected by too many live aboards/families"

 

I think the value could be affected

 

other potential problems:

 

sitting tennants/rights of occupancy

overusing the facilities

putting other moorers off (80% of boat owners are over 50)

resolution of problems that might be created

 

As the berths could be filled many times over why take on the trouble? thats how I think its seen

 

Finally If I owned a marina and had a number of live aboards/families, I would take them if they paid a premium ie something like 30% more to cover me for the points raised above. Not a popular thought I know but with moorings becoming scarcer and more expensive I can see some marina owners doing just this

 

Charles

[WJM]

Precisely

 

so what does that tell us about the future of the waterways!

[anhar]

There's a marina close to me up for sale at £900K. However, if one does a "back of envelope" business analysis I can't see more than about £150K of annual cash flow, the business consisting of three entities, viz: about 25 moorings (say £50K), two "grockle boats" that (in season) take mainly kids and OAPs on a short afternoon trip (say £10K) and "engineering" services (blacking, sub-contracted painting, engine servicing etc), say £90K tops.

 

I can't see an approriate return on any investment close to the asking price.

 

Chris

 

Chris

Hello Chris

 

Is this a freehold? If so that will inflate the price. Valuations of a business comparing profits with the price when the latter includes freehold property will very often show poor returns. This is because the freehold property element inflates the price. In many cases, businesses based on freehold premises make little or nothing so that on paper, the price being asked seems ridiculous in comparison. I've seen this regularly with eg. petrol stations, pubs, hotels and so on.

 

regards

Steve

[magnetman]

If nobody wants to bother with boatyards because they don't pay a good return then they can't really moan when the place is covered with 'houses' with a little wet bit where you can put a boat but not burn wood on your fire.

 

Is this £850k yard at Pitstone ?

[Sir Nibble]

No, I didn't mean that. I meant that the sort of independent minded people who educate their children at home may well be the same sort of independent minded people who can hack living on a boat. Also, if the children benefit, what does the parents' primary motivation matter?

This is true. People who educate their own children are indeed exceptional. If intelligent people decide that the best way to address their childrens education is to do the job themselves at home, then they deserve support. If on the other hand home education is not a solution to the childrens needs, but to the adults desire to live on a boat. Then the children are being made to follow an agenda based on their parents needs. Home education should be a commitment to children, not a means to make children fit a commitment to boating.

We now have two children who are more laid back, water wise, wildlife wise and more conscious of their environment

I got that as a kid playing cowboys and indians. What about education for a 21st century world? I don't doubt that your children are properly educated, but why when this subject is raised is so much made of fresh air and the birds and bees. Is this SO much more important than maths and English? It's certainly no substitute.

[Chrisy]

Well I am another newbe to the site but over the time I,ve been boating I have know several families not to just have children onboard but have there child born on board any trouble I have had with kids has been with ones outside the marina coming in throwing stones and generally not respecting boaters life styles. all the kids on boats that I have experianced have had full respect for other boaters and know the dangers better than anyone else.

 

But you are still stuck with the fact that marina owners have the right to make any rules they like when ever they like.

[StoneHenge]

I got that as a kid playing cowboys and indians. What about education for a 21st century world? I don't doubt that your children are properly educated, but why when this subject is raised is so much made of fresh air and the birds and bees. Is this SO much more important than maths and English? It's certainly no substitute.

 

I think it's better than them being stuck in front of the TV, or playing on a games console getting obsese and taking no interest in the water apart from to throw rocks at boats. And what really is wrong with them enjoying the fresh air, appreciating the wild life and enjoying all things natural.

 

They have a lot of influcence of 21st century goings on at school, and with all the other activities they are taken on, not just to do with boats. Of course education is important. They know that school is an important part of life and they enjoy that (they do go to school, not home educated).

 

There are too many kids these days who depend on something that requires plugging in for entertainment, and that's OK in moderation. Not enough playing outside, not enough of a lot of things these days. I don't see the harm in them appreciting the things around them, and having a jolly good old game of cowboys and indians at the same time.

[carlt]

I think Snibble has a point. I don't think my youngest is being raised any better or worse, now we're living in a house. He gets out into the countryside, as often as possible, because his parents need it.

 

I wouldn't dream of home tutoring my kids whether living on a boat or not, they may get educated, academically, but I think they need the social interaction of school. Being autistic, this may change, for my eldest, if he finds it difficult coping in mainstream education. He isn't going to a 'special school'.

[Maverick]

Got nothing against kids but I couldnt eat an whole one. Speaking selfishly I go to the boat to get peace and quiet and kids quite naturally want to run around and let of some steam and make a bit of noise.

 

I know its completely selfish but ive done the bringing up kids bit and I dont think boats, water & kids mix to well.

[StoneHenge]

I am not disagreeing with the house or boat issue. I think either are fine on that score. And when we did live in a house we did all those things too, getting out to country parks etc. Just where we were before, it was a busy road, lots of traffic, bad neighbours, all sorts of things.

 

I think they are benefitting from the quieter life they have now compared to the very noisy life they had before.

 

I wouldn't home educate either, simply because they get so much out of being with other children and joining other activities, not just in school hours.

 

I really don't disagree with those, just that mine are getting more out of their lives now, which is a benefit to all of us. Happy kids, happy parents.

 

I just see so many kids who really are brought up on playstations and the like and it's sad when there is a whole world out there to explore.

[grahoom]

Got nothing against kids but I couldnt eat an whole one. Speaking selfishly I go to the boat to get peace and quiet and kids quite naturally want to run around and let of some steam and make a bit of noise.

 

I know its completely selfish but ive done the bringing up kids bit and I dont think boats, water & kids mix to well.

 

surely, with a boat, the great thing is - you can move on and find a bit of peace if a mooring / marina is too noisy for you? or are the water ways so chock a block with kids "enjoying themselves" that there is really no place at all for the pesky little blighters?

[Maverick]

surely, with a boat, the great thing is - you can move on and find a bit of peace if a mooring / marina is too noisy for you? or are the water ways so chock a block with kids "enjoying themselves" that there is really no place at all for the pesky little blighters?

 

So your suggesting that if ive been on a marina quite happily for x amount of years then some pesky kids (your words) should come on and start annoying folk. Its up to me to move??? Brilliant

[grahoom]

So your suggesting that if ive been on a marina quite happily for x amount of years then some pesky kids (your words) should come on and start annoying folk. Its up to me to move??? Brilliant

 

nope that's not what i was suggesting at all.

[Theo]

Hi all, lurking newbie making first post. (another potential live aboard pending boat survey).

 

Is it possible that the marina owner is also getting a reduction in public liability insurance costs by refusing under twelves on his premises ?

Welcome, Gilby.

 

Enjoy the forum.

 

Nick

[Maverick]

nope that's not what i was suggesting at all.

 

Thank god for that I'll put the shotgun back in its case. Conkers anyone?

[WJM]

"Is this a freehold?"

 

Freehold but a very 'difficult' site and no PP. If the freehold were 'significant' it would be snapped up by a developer. The overvaluation of the package seems to stem from an overvaluation of the site.

[gilby]

Welcome, Gilby.

 

Enjoy the forum.

 

Nick

 

Many thanks, been learning a lot from the forum over the last month or so. Once the mrs and myself are settled and get the onboard internet sorted I hope to join in a bit more, fingers crossed on the survey next week and we're living the dream (nightmare? I'm sure we'll mess up a bit to start with).

[chris w]

I just see so many kids who really are brought up on playstations and the like and it's sad when there is a whole world out there to explore.

 

 

......................and then they grow up and migrate to an on-line forum all day

[grahoom]

......................and then they grow up and migrate to an on-line forum all day

 

nah, that would be kids brought up on zx spectrums, dragon 32's, amstrad cpc464's, commodore 32 / 64's ... (actually, that might just be me... i'll get my coat!)

[saltysplash]

But they shouldn't. "We shall educate our own children so that we can live aboard" is putting the children second to the parents agenda.

 

But isnt everything we do for our children putting them second to our agenda, We choose live in a house or a certain area or a certain country or on a boat.

Theres no real difference except social attitudes to other peoples way of life and what society expects of each of us