Battery issues

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

I disconnected everything and went back to the marina.

 

[frahkn]

OK - thanks for all the help.

 

For reasons not worth going in to I am having difficulty getting the batteries replaced.

 

Can I ask, with only two useable batteries left, are there any arrangements by which I can still use shore power to power the 12v systems on the boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, frahkn said:

OK - thanks for all the help.

 

For reasons not worth going in to I am having difficulty getting the batteries replaced.

 

Can I ask, with only two useable batteries left, are there any arrangements by which I can still use shore power to power the 12v systems on the boat?

Yes, you can run with just 1 battery, maybe even without a battery at all just using the battery charger as the supply.

[WotEver]

46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes, you can run with just 1 battery, maybe even without a battery at all just using the battery charger as the supply.

One battery yes, but many chargers will not operate as a power supply without at least one. 

[frahkn]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes, you can run with just 1 battery, maybe even without a battery at all just using the battery charger as the supply.

It's the practicalities which I am worrying about. If no battery, do I just connect the original battery input and output lines together?

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

One battery yes, but many chargers will not operate as a power supply without at least one. 

Mine is an elderly (2003) Mastervolt combi - I would prefer not to damage it inadvertently.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, frahkn said:

It's the practicalities which I am worrying about. If no battery, do I just connect the original battery input and output lines together?

I did say 'maybe it would run without a battery' but it will depend on charger type.

You could disconnect all of your domestic bank, then connect the 'domestic supply' cables to your starter battery*.

Connect your battery charger to your starter battery

Plug in your land line and away you go.

 

12v keeping your starter battery charged and 12v available throughout the boat (TV, pumps, etc) as normal.

 

* How you physically do that will depend on your battery locations, and master switches locations. If your domestic master switch is close by your starter battery master switch and the wire has sufficient spare length, the easiest way would be to disconnect the 'output' side of the domestic switch (not the cable that goes to the domestic battery) and add that to the output side of the starter battery master switch.

You will then still have a 'master switch' in the system.

 

Maybe I have not described that very well - do you understand what I am suggesting ?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Dr Bob]

11 minutes ago, frahkn said:

It's the practicalities which I am worrying about. If no battery, do I just connect the original battery input and output lines together?

Mine is an elderly (2003) Mastervolt combi - I would prefer not to damage it inadvertently.

Don't do it without a battery. Just leave one of them in circuit. 

 

Eta.  Post crossed with Alan. If one or two are 'usable' i.e. Not shorting then leave them in circuit.....even if they are heavily sulphated they will still work with the shore power charger.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Dr Bob

[WotEver]

31 minutes ago, frahkn said:

It's the practicalities which I am worrying about.

Post a picture of your batteries, showing how they’re connected and we’ll tell you how to remove one or two. Put stickers on the ones you want to remove. 

[Boater Sam]

On the duff battery/s you want to disconnect, just remove the positive, red, connection and insulate the connection so it doesnt short to anything. Leave the good ones connected.

[frahkn]

59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I did say 'maybe it would run without a battery' but it will depend on charger type.

You could disconnect all of your domestic bank, then connect the 'domestic supply' cables to your starter battery*.

Connect your battery charger to your starter battery

Plug in your land line and away you go.

 

12v keeping your starter battery charged and 12v available throughout the boat (TV, pumps, etc) as normal.

 

* How you physically do that will depend on your battery locations, and master switches locations. If your domestic master switch is close by your starter battery master switch and the wire has sufficient spare length, the easiest way would be to disconnect the 'output' side of the domestic switch (not the cable that goes to the domestic battery) and add that to the output side of the starter battery master switch.

You will then still have a 'master switch' in the system.

 

Maybe I have not described that very well - do you understand what I am suggesting ?

Thank you, I realise that you are doing you're best - you just can't judge the extent of my ignorance.

 

The situation is that my domestics are already completely disconnected - I did this because 3 of the 5 were shorting out and producing H2S.

 

To achieve this I disconnected a heavy red wire (input) and a heavy black wire (output) which were originally connected to opposite diagonal terminals at opposite ends of the bank.

 

The engine is 8' from the domestic batteries, the combi is much closer but woodwork etc makes it difficult to say anything definite about the wires which I have disconnected.

 

The starter battery is about 8' away and seems to be fine.

 

I'm happy (eager) to have new batteries but the marina sub-contract this work and their guy is unavailable for some weeks.

 

I would like to connect shore power in the meantime in order to keep the boat frost free.

51 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Post a picture of your batteries, showing how they’re connected and we’ll tell you how to remove one or two. Put stickers on the ones you want to remove. 

Sorry, not on the boat at present - no 12 volt so unliveable.

[Boater Sam]

OK, so disconnect the red on the duff batteries and insulate them,  then reconnect the main feed cables that you took off. And you are back on with just the !good" ones connected.

[Dr Bob]

Do you know the 2 good ones are not shorted out? If you are happy one is good, just connect the big red wire you disconnected to the positive of the good one and the big black wire to the negative terminal. You may need to remove the wires on the good one to get the fittings on. Tape up any connectors you remove. 

Which marina are you in? It's a quick job. Some one in the marina may be able to help. 

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Do you know the 2 good ones are not shorted out? If you are happy one is good, just connect the big red wire you disconnected to the positive of the good one and the big black wire to the negative terminal. You may need to remove the wires on the good one to get the fittings on. Tape up any connectors you remove. 

Which marina are you in? It's a quick job. Some one in the marina may be able to help. 

No, I don't strictly know that either of the remaining two are good but neither were hot when I disconnected the lot.

 

I think I can do the job myself. What I cannot do is replace the batteries, I have a slight disability which prevents me handling the weight (and also no transport).

 

 I'm in Aston marina. They rely on Trent Valley Marine who are co-located there. Unfortunately TVM subcontract their electrical work and their guy is unavailable for the next six weeks while recovering from an operation. So I am looking for someone local who can undertake the work. So far, without success. In the meantime I would like to get the shore power working.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, frahkn said:

No, I don't strictly know that either of the remaining two are good but neither were hot when I disconnected the lot.

 

I think I can do the job myself. What I cannot do is replace the batteries, I have a slight disability which prevents me handling the weight (and also no transport).

 

 I'm in Aston marina. They rely on Trent Valley Marine who are co-located there. Unfortunately TVM subcontract their electrical work and their guy is unavailable for the next six weeks while recovering from an operation. So I am looking for someone local who can undertake the work. So far, without success. In the meantime I would like to get the shore power working.

 

 

 

If you cannot trust any of your batteries then the only thing you can do is to 'hot-wire' the red lead that you took off the domestic batteries to the starter battery.

 

As you don't appear to be able to link it across directly to the master switch I can only suggest as follows;

 

Domestic bank - leave the black (-) lead disconnected from the bank and reconnect the red (+) lead to the + terminal of the battery bank. (The bank is now isolated and will do nothing) you have only reconnected it so you have something for the jump-lead to grip onto,

 

Take a jump lead (do you have one ? if not you'll need to buy a pair) You only need one lead long enough to reach from the domestic batteries to the starter batteries  (8 foot you said - get 10' + jump leads)

Clip one end onto the domestic + terminal (the one you have just reconnected the red lead to)

Clip the other end to the + terminal on the starter battery.

 

You now have your starter battery powering your 12v system.

 

Now - make sure that you battery charger is connected to the starter battery (you don't want to flatten the battery) then connect the shoreline - Bobs' your uncle.

[Boater Sam]

Reading between the lines I realise that you have not disconnected the batteries individually but just removed the cables that connect the whole bank to the boat.

This would have left all the batteries connected together, the good ones would have discharged into the bad ones as they are all connected in parallel. Hence the overheating of batteries as you attempted to charge them. 

You need to disconnect every battery at least the positive + end from its neighbours and the boat then measure the voltage of each battery individually to determine which may still be usable. Any showing less than 11.0v can safely assume to be containing at least one cell that potentially could be shorted out. Hence scrap, worth £10 -£13 at a scrap yard to offset the cost of new ones.

[frahkn]

11 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Reading between the lines I realise that you have not disconnected the batteries individually but just removed the cables that connect the whole bank to the boat.

This would have left all the batteries connected together, the good ones would have discharged into the bad ones as they are all connected in parallel. Hence the overheating of batteries as you attempted to charge them. 

You need to disconnect every battery at least the positive + end from its neighbours and the boat then measure the voltage of each battery individually to determine which may still be usable. Any showing less than 11.0v can safely assume to be containing at least one cell that potentially could be shorted out. Hence scrap, worth £10 -£13 at a scrap yard to offset the cost of new ones.

No, I skipped some points in my explanation, sorry.

 

I disconnected 3 of the batteries one at a time as they got hot (over 4 days). That left me with two which were not getting hot. Before I left the boat I disconnected those as well but not from each other. So 3 are completely disconnected and the "good" two are connected only to each other.

[Boater Sam]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

No, I skipped some points in my explanation, sorry.

 

I disconnected 3 of the batteries one at a time as they got hot (over 4 days). That left me with two which were not getting hot. Before I left the boat I disconnected those as well but not from each other. So 3 are completely disconnected and the "good" two are connected only to each other.

Precisely, you only dissed one at a time so the others were still discharging into the remaining duff batteries they were connected to. You need them all dissed to check the individual battery voltages to locate the faulty ones. That way you would of found the faulty one before they got hot and before they wrecked any of the others. One duff battery in a bank will destroy all the bank eventually.

[frahkn]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you cannot trust any of your batteries then the only thing you can do is to 'hot-wire' the red lead that you took off the domestic batteries to the starter battery.

 

As you don't appear to be able to link it across directly to the master switch I can only suggest as follows;

 

Domestic bank - leave the black (-) lead disconnected from the bank and reconnect the red (+) lead to the + terminal of the battery bank. (The bank is now isolated and will do nothing) you have only reconnected it so you have something for the jump-lead to grip onto,

 

Take a jump lead (do you have one ? if not you'll need to buy a pair) You only need one lead long enough to reach from the domestic batteries to the starter batteries  (8 foot you said - get 10' + jump leads)

Clip one end onto the domestic + terminal (the one you have just reconnected the red lead to)

Clip the other end to the + terminal on the starter battery.

 

You now have your starter battery powering your 12v system.

 

Now - make sure that you battery charger is connected to the starter battery (you don't want to flatten the battery) then connect the shoreline - Bobs' your uncle.

The charger in the combi does not charge the starter battery (one of the few things I know about the set up). I don't think I could connect it - it's just too far away.

 

What I could do is disconnect the starter battery, move it to the domestic battery box and connect it as a temporary domestic battery. Would that be ok?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, frahkn said:

The charger in the combi does not charge the starter battery (one of the few things I know about the set up). I don't think I could connect it - it's just too far away.

 

What I could do is disconnect the starter battery, move it to the domestic battery box and connect it as a temporary domestic battery. Would that be ok?

Yes, that would work fine (but obviously you wouldn't be able to start the engine) and you won't be re-charging the battery.

Maybe see if the chandlery has a cheap charger that you can plug in.

 

I'd suggest that when you get the electrician in to sort it all out have him look at the charger.

I'd be very surprised if the charger (combi) doesn't have 2 outputs, one for the domestic bank and one for the starter battery. (My Victron charger certainly has).

He could connect that in for you whilst he is there,

Edited January 7, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Boater Sam]

3 minutes ago, frahkn said:

The charger in the combi does not charge the starter battery (one of the few things I know about the set up). I don't think I could connect it - it's just too far away.

 

What I could do is disconnect the starter battery, move it to the domestic battery box and connect it as a temporary domestic battery. Would that be ok?

Certainly, good idea but bear in mind if you run it down too far it will not start your engine when you put it back and if you leave it partially discharged for any length of time it will start to sulphate,  I.E. die.

You may find that one of the old cabin bank batteries is still fit enough to start your engine.

[frahkn]

Right.

 

First, thanks for all the replies, the helpful, the entertaining and the others.

 

Secondly, I have found someone to supply and fit new batteries and to give the charging system a look over to see if there was any underlying problem.

 

I will let you know the results i.d.c.

[MtB]

41 minutes ago, Fractoggen said:

If you want to new battery for discount price so feel free check here.

 

 

But where would I go if I wanted to buy some spam?

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Athy

[Athy]

38 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

But where would I go if I wanted to buy some spam?

 

 

Following your report, I've removed the post in question and have edited the link out of your quotation.

[rusty69]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

But where would I go if I wanted to buy some spam?

 

 

I received an e-mail that said, "At Google Earth we can read maps backwards!"

 

I thought, "That's just spam."

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I received an e-mail that said, "At Google Earth we can read maps backwards!"

 

I thought, "That's just spam."

 

What sort of cheese is made backwards?

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Edam, obvs!!!