Battery issues

[frahkn]

My domestic batteries (sealed lead acid) are shot and must be replaced in the new year. That’s fine (they were cheap and are nearly three years old) but I am out over Christmas and want to nurse them through those few weeks.

 

Could the 12 volt experts on here help me with two strange (to me at least) problems?

 

My Sterling battery monitor shows figures for Ah used and Amps in. Previously when “all” the used Ah had been replaced, no more were shown as going in. Now however the monitor shows amps going in even after the used Ah figure has been reduced to 0. I don’t understand what is going on here.

 

Also, yesterday while traveling, there was a distinctive “bad egg” smell which I assume was H2S produced by the batteries overcharging. Looking at them, 3 have the green “ok” dot and the other two have the dark “charge needed” dot. None are shown as “replace” or are deformed or leaking.

 

I know the batteries are shot (they were taken below 50% for weeks when shore power failed) but what is the rest about?

 

Thanks.

[MoominPapa]

At least one cell has failed short circuit, turning a 12v battery effectively into a 10v battery. That explains the charge current even when charged, and the bad egg smell, the remaining five cells are being grossly overcharged. The dot only tells you about one of the cells in the battery, so it's not much use in diagnosing which ones have failed. The best way is to see which batterie(s) get toasty warm when you charge them. Even when not charging, the good, 12v batteries will be trying to charge the 10v ones, so the dead batteries may still be hot now. Remove those from the bank and charge the remaining ones  and they will see you through to the new year.

 

MP.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

You have one or more shorting cells. They produce hydrogen suplhide (rotten eggs smell) gas that is highly dangerous. It is possible the faulty battery/s may explode if left on charge.

 

Sorry, they are shot and any that get hotter than the rest either the whole battery or parts of it must be taken out of service NOW!.

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

At least one cell has failed short circuit,

 

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

You have one or more shorting cells.

 

IMMEDIATELY Disconnect the battery(s) that are getting hot, I had this - in the middle of the night, the Co detector went 'off' and I traced it to one of the batteries having a cell-short and overheating - they affected battery was so hot it was untouchable, I managed to get a spanner on and disconnected the terminals. I reckon another hour or so & I'd have had an explosion, boiling acid flying around is not something I'd enjoy

The battery was still hot the next morning.

 

Don't risk it - find out which one it is and either take it out of the 'bank' or replace it.

Life is worth more than £60 for a new battery.

 

Also - don't buy sealed batteries, and definitely not one with a 'magic eye' (they lie !!)

You should buy batteries that can be 'topped up' and you should check them frequently. Taking a lot of water is the one sign of a battery about to fail.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[frahkn]

Thanks very much all three of you.

 

I travelled 5 miles and 4 locks today with the back cabin floor up and checked the batteries at each lock.

 

None of them were hot, not even slightly but two were warm - just enough to make a difference with the other three.

 

I have an infra-red thermometer so I will keep a sharp eye on them. At the moment I cannot tell which are the ones to take out of circuit.

 

I'll keep in touch - if only to show that I'm still alive.

 

Thanks again.

[MoominPapa]

17 minutes ago, frahkn said:

Thanks very much all three of you.

 

I travelled 5 miles and 4 locks today with the back cabin floor up and checked the batteries at each lock.

 

None of them were hot, not even slightly but two were warm - just enough to make a difference with the other three.

 

I have an infra-red thermometer so I will keep a sharp eye on them. At the moment I cannot tell which are the ones to take out of circuit.

 

I'll keep in touch - if only to show that I'm still alive.

 

Thanks again.

Do you have clamp meter?

 

MP.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Do you have clamp meter?

 

MP.

 

 

MrSmelly has probably got one for his Turnips.

 

 

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

Do you have clamp meter?

 

MP.

 

MP,

 

Yes I have, although to be honest, I haven't used it much.

[Boater Sam]

Do as you have been advised, find the duff battery/s and disconnect them NOW.

That Hydrogen sulphide gas will cause corrosion on everything metallic in the boat including the hull, in your lungs it will kill you.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Boater Sam

[MoominPapa]

36 minutes ago, frahkn said:

MP,

 

Yes I have, although to be honest, I haven't used it much.

It will allow you to measure the current in the interconnects between the batteries, and with a bit of head scratching determine which are being charged when they shouldn't be.

MP.

[frahkn]

1 minute ago, MoominPapa said:

It will allow you to measure the current in the interconnects between the batteries, and with a bit of head scratching determine which are being charged when they shouldn't be.

MP.

Right, I can follow that.

 

There are no warm batteries now so I will leave it till tomorrow and check the interconnects.

 

It may be that I will need advice with the head scratching. Tomorrow will tell.

 

Meantime, thanks.

[alan_fincher]

Are the "warm" batteries sandwiched between others in the bank, so you can really only feel their tops and ends?

If there is a duff cell in the middle part of a battery, you may only be able to find out just how hot that cell is getting by feeling the sides of the battery at that point.  If it is sandwiched between two others, that may not be possible, and on top it may not be half as warm as it is down the sides.

The warnings about a possible explosion sending acid over everything in sight should not be ignored, and even if it doesn't go pop, as stated just the emitted gas may do a fair amount of damage.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Life is worth more than £60 for a new battery.

 

Where you getting 110Ah leisure batteries for £60?

 

 

(Especially three days before xmas!)

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where you getting 110Ah leisure batteries for £60?

 

 

£55, order tonight, free delivery Tuesday. 24th

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-110AH-LEISURE-BATTERY-HEAVY-DUTY-LOW-HEIGHT-100-AH-AMP-110-AMP-DUAL-PURP/301581095653?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D60698%26meid%3D420c9a7c384b464194b0a0cff965c054%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dsb%26sd%3D202690470212%26itm%3D301581095653%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Battery-12V-100AH-SB-S100-Caravan-Motorhome-Marine-Boat/202690470212?epid=9034190477&hash=item2f314b2144:g:0N8AAOSwjQ5c6vVc

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Battery-12V-110AH-SB-LM110-Caravan-Motorhome-Marine-Boat/191393651830?hash=item2c8ff35c76:g:nPYAAOSwopRYiiK9

 

They even offer some useful guidelines :

 

Leisure Battery Care & Maintenance:

 

     SuperBatt leisure batteries are manufactured to the very highest of standards, but to get the very best performance, and longevity out of your batteries it is well worth following a simple care and maintenance program:

•          Always recharge your battery as soon as you can after use after discharge and keep it as fully charged as possible during long periods of in-activity.
•          Please must use Continual Automatic chargers with these batteries such as NUMAX 12V 10A DC Fully Automatic Intelligent Connect & Forget Leisure Battery charger can be left attached to the battery for long periods and will look after your battery at correct state of charge until you need it next.
•          Avoid completely discharging your battery (Below 10.5V) as this will reduce its cyclic lifespan.
•          When the battery is out of the caravan/motor-homes etc., always store it in a cool, dry and well ventilated place.
•          From time to time make sure the terminals are free from dust and dirt, and all connections are sound.
•          Please must not use Trickle charge with these batteries.
•          An equalizing charge for a 12volt battery required that it be charged with a voltage of at least 14.4 volts for a period of at least one hour once a month, or every 10 discharge cycles. An equalizing charge prevents battery stratification and reduces sulfation, the leading cause of battery failure. Equalizing should be performed when a battery is first purchased (called a freshening charge). Reduced performance can also be an indicator that an equalizing charge is needed.
•          All batteries, regardless of their chemistry, will self-discharge. The rate of self-discharge for lead acid batteries depends on the storage or operating temperature. At a temperature of 80 degrees F. A lead acid battery will self-discharge at a rate of approximately 4% a week. A battery with a 125-amp hour rating would self-discharge at a rate of approximately five amps per week. Keeping this in mind if a 125 AH battery is stored for four months (16 weeks) winter without being charged, it will lose 80 amps of its 125-amp capacity. It will also have severe sulfation, which causes additional loss of capacity. Keep your batteries charged while not in use.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Battery-12V-100AH-SB-S100-Caravan-Motorhome-Marine-Boat/202690470212?epid=9034190477&hash=item2f314b2144:g:0N8AAOSwjQ5c6vVc

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Battery-12V-110AH-SB-LM110-Caravan-Motorhome-Marine-Boat/191393651830?hash=item2c8ff35c76:g:nPYAAOSwopRYiiK9

 

They even offer some useful guidelines :

 

Leisure Battery Care & Maintenance:

 

     SuperBatt leisure batteries are manufactured to the very highest of standards, but to get the very best performance, and longevity out of your batteries it is well worth following a simple care and maintenance program:

•          Always recharge your battery as soon as you can after use after discharge and keep it as fully charged as possible during long periods of in-activity.
•          Please must use Continual Automatic chargers with these batteries such as NUMAX 12V 10A DC Fully Automatic Intelligent Connect & Forget Leisure Battery charger can be left attached to the battery for long periods and will look after your battery at correct state of charge until you need it next.
•          Avoid completely discharging your battery (Below 10.5V) as this will reduce its cyclic lifespan.
•          When the battery is out of the caravan/motor-homes etc., always store it in a cool, dry and well ventilated place.
•          From time to time make sure the terminals are free from dust and dirt, and all connections are sound.
•          Please must not use Trickle charge with these batteries.
•          An equalizing charge for a 12volt battery required that it be charged with a voltage of at least 14.4 volts for a period of at least one hour once a month, or every 10 discharge cycles. An equalizing charge prevents battery stratification and reduces sulfation, the leading cause of battery failure. Equalizing should be performed when a battery is first purchased (called a freshening charge). Reduced performance can also be an indicator that an equalizing charge is needed.
•          All batteries, regardless of their chemistry, will self-discharge. The rate of self-discharge for lead acid batteries depends on the storage or operating temperature. At a temperature of 80 degrees F. A lead acid battery will self-discharge at a rate of approximately 4% a week. A battery with a 125-amp hour rating would self-discharge at a rate of approximately five amps per week. Keeping this in mind if a 125 AH battery is stored for four months (16 weeks) winter without being charged, it will lose 80 amps of its 125-amp capacity. It will also have severe sulfation, which causes additional loss of capacity. Keep your batteries charged while not in use.

 

That's £65 and £67. You said £60.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That's £65 and £67. You said £60.

 

 

 

Have another look - I got it wrong £55 for sealed, £65 for "top-up-able"

 

£55 inc delivery on Tuesday 24th

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Are the "warm" batteries sandwiched between others in the bank, so you can really only feel their tops and ends?

If there is a duff cell in the middle part of a battery, you may only be able to find out just how hot that cell is getting by feeling the sides of the battery at that point.  If it is sandwiched between two others, that may not be possible, and on top it may not be half as warm as it is down the sides.

The warnings about a possible explosion sending acid over everything in sight should not be ignored, and even if it doesn't go pop, as stated just the emitted gas may do a fair amount of damage.

Thank you Alan, you are quite right that I only have easy access to the tops and ends of the batteries.

 

However even getting down on the floor (the batteries are in a wooden box under the cabin floor) I can smell no gas.

 

I will try the clamp meter tomorrow.

 

Thanks for your support - I clearly have a lot to learn about batteries.

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Have another look - I got it wrong £55 for sealed, £65 for "top-up-able"

 

£55 inc delivery on Tuesday 24th

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F301581095653

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, WotEver said:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F301581095653

That's the same one I quoted, guess repetition is good !!

 

MtB seems to have gone quiet. Maybe he's only pedantic when it s a few pounds 'over' but doesn't worry when its a few pounds 'under'.

[WotEver]

49 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That's the same one I quoted, guess repetition is good !!

Oh no it isn’t! (It’s panto season)

 

Yours links to the £65 one. Mine links to the £55 one. Well, plus 21p for Mike

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Oh no it isn’t! (It’s panto season)

 

Yours links to the £65 one. Mine links to the £55 one. Well, plus 21p for Mike

 

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

£55, order tonight, free delivery Tuesday. 24th

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-110AH-LEISURE-BATTERY-HEAVY-DUTY-LOW-HEIGHT-100-AH-AMP-110-AMP-DUAL-PURP/301581095653?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D60698%26meid%3D420c9a7c384b464194b0a0cff965c054%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dsb%26sd%3D202690470212%26itm%3D301581095653%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Battery-12V-100AH-SB-S100-Caravan-Motorhome-Marine-Boat/202690470212?epid=9034190477&hash=item2f314b2144:g:0N8AAOSwjQ5c6vVc

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deep-Cycle-Leisure-Battery-12V-110AH-SB-LM110-Caravan-Motorhome-Marine-Boat/191393651830?hash=item2c8ff35c76:g:nPYAAOSwopRYiiK9

 

 

 

See the 1st one linked.

 

Identical and same supplier.

 

It was an edit about 30 seconds after posting the £65 one.

 

It looks as if both MtB and yourself missed it.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

See the 1st one linked.

Ahh, but you edited your post and I missed the edit. 

[MtB]

 

He edited the post when he realised I was right...

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

I think the original comment stands;

 

A 110Ah battery can be sourced & supplied before Christmas for under £60

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think the original comment stands;

 

A 110Ah battery can be sourced & supplied before Christmas for under £60

 

True, but the links you originally posted (then subsequently changed) did not support this assertion. 

 

But anyway I know you can 'out-pedant' me with ease, so I'll give way now and agree, yes you are right....