Boiler and Calorifier

[Nightwatch]

Hello. 'Ere I am again with my issues in need of advice.

 

Nightwatch is at the age when 'it' needs money investing. 

 

Our Calorifier has a couple of big bulges where there are obvious weaknesses, the bulge pushing out the insulation quite a bit. Just a matter of time before it goes I reckon. 

 

There is a Slimline Alde Boiler. Works well, had loads of replacement parts over the years, simple fixes like thermal couples etc. It's tired.  Needs a complete refurb or replacement.

we have a leak somewhere, yeah I know, I can't find it. There's a discharge overboard that seems to continually dribble water when the engine running and heating water and when moored up and boiler on. Second in command has commanded the Commander to sort it. Gulp!

 

Now then. 

Best Boiler to replace the 2928? I believe the Slimline is now obsolete, I'm very much aware of Graham Cutmore and his organisation. We have used his services once, he said he no longer does call outs and put me in touch with someone. This someone was a waste of money and time. I knew more than he about my boiler. So, I'm reluctant to approach Graham Cutmore.

 

There may even be systems that I'm not aware of, so suggestions are always welcome. I may well have someone waiting in the wings, so to speak, who can carry out the work, but once again, am open to offers and suggestions.

 

Not looking forward to the upheaval and turmoil of sorting this. I could just for a big sleep and waken to find it all done. 

 

Lazy? Me? Nah! Just old and worn out.

 

many thanks 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Our Calorifier has a couple of big bulges where there are obvious weaknesses, the bulge pushing out the insulation quite a bit. Just a matter of time before it goes I reckon. 

 

I very much doubt that. The insulation on the other hand, tends to expand with age and bulges spontaneously occur to accommodate the increased size. I bet this is what is happening to yours.

 

Take a small blunt screwdriver and push it through the insulation bulge until you feel the copper beneath. Mark the depth of penetration with your thumbnail then push it again through the insulation where there is no bulge. I expect you will be able to demonstrate to yourself the bulge only exists in the insulation. If so, you have a 'non-problem'. Just get on with enjoying having hot water and spend the £600 on more beer. 

 

 

[Nightwatch]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I very much doubt that. The insulation on the other hand, tends to expand with age and bulges spontaneously occur to accommodate the increased size. I bet this is what is happening to yours.

 

Take a small blunt screwdriver and push it through the insulation bulge until you feel the copper beneath. Mark the depth of penetration with your thumbnail then push it again through the insulation where there is no bulge. I expect you will be able to demonstrate to yourself the bulge only exists in the insulation. If so, you have a 'non-problem'. Just get on with enjoying having hot water and spend the £600 on more beer. 

 

 

Thanks Mike. Margaret did remind me that you mentioned this when you visited us a couple of years ago. I don't remember. Thank you. 

[MtB]

Ok, just read the rest of your post. Again, replacing the perfectly good whole system just to fix a dribbling PRV seems madness!

 

On the other hand, throwing vast sums of money at it by getting a whole new system helps you swerve the pain of diagnosing the reason for the dribbling. On the other, other hand (assuming you have three), your new system might turn out to be loaded with teething problems too. It has been known to happen in the past!

 

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Thanks Mike. Margaret did remind me that you mentioned this when you visited us a couple of years ago. I don't remember. Thank you. 

 

Lol I don't remember this either. 

 

Women, huh. Most seem able to quote verbatim any conversation from no matter how long ago. Decades sometimes. I can't even remember people's names when I've just been told. 

 

 

[Nightwatch]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Lol I don't remember this either. 

 

Women, huh. Most seem able to quote verbatim any conversation from no matter how long ago. Decades sometimes. I can't even remember people's names when I've just been told. 

 

 

My woman can hear my conversations even when in a different county. John!

[Nightwatch]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok, just read the rest of your post. Again, replacing the perfectly good whole system just to fix a dribbling PRV seems madness!

 

On the other hand, throwing vast sums of money at it by getting a whole new system helps you swerve the pain of diagnosing the reason for the dribbling. On the other, other hand (assuming you have three), your new system might turn out to be loaded with teething problems too. It has been known to happen in the past!

 

 

You reckon it might, may be, possibly be a duff PRV. An easy fix I guess, if it is the PRV.

[MtB]

Just now, Nightwatch said:

You reckon it might, may be, possibly be a duff PRV. An easy fix I guess, if it is the PRV.

 

It's not usually that straightforward. 

 

The PRV is probably working correctly, i.e. opening to prevent the pressure in your system rising too high. The reason for it rising too high needs divining. Hard questions need answering, such as:

 

Do you have an accumulator fitted? 

 

Did the start of this problem coincide with replacing a duff water pump?

 

Does your calorifier have a non return valve fitted in the cold water inlet port?

 

 

 

[frangar]

Personally I’d keep the Alde going..although heavy on gas they are easy on power and simple to keep going & fix. I’ve found Graham to be ok and not had a problem with spares availability yet..I think he still services the burners by post. 

 

When it finally becomes unfixable i think id replace it with a 3000 series although that would involve getting rid of the copper pipe work and a bit of boat refitting. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, frangar said:

 

When it finally becomes unfixable i think id replace it with a 3000 series although that would involve getting rid of the copper pipe work and a bit of boat refitting. 

 

A pedantic point but the copper pipework does not need to be removed it can be left in place, just abandoned. The new plastic pipes can be run in perhaps easier more accessible routes, now the boat is a finished boat in regular use, on the surface if necessary.

 

A point sometimes overlooked. 

[frangar]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A pedantic point but the copper pipework does not need to be removed it can be left in place, just abandoned. The new plastic pipes can be run in perhaps easier more accessible routes, now the boat is a finished boat in regular use, on the surface if necessary.

 

A point sometimes overlooked. 

My heating was retrofitted by a previous owner so the new pipes would have to take the same route as the copper ones....Worth remembering you need to fit a stainless calorifier with the new Alde’s too.....I did ask about what happens with the copper pipe work on the engine but never really got a satisfactory answer. 

[hider]

Please, why new plastic pipes? What's wrong with copper?

[frangar]

Just now, hider said:

Please, why new plastic pipes? What's wrong with copper?

The heat exchanger in the 3000 series is alloy. Copper causes an electrolytic reaction and eats it away.  

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, frangar said:

The heat exchanger in the 3000 series is alloy. Copper causes an electrolytic reaction and eats it away.  

So all you really need is a 6" length of plastic pipe joined to the copper piping and t'other end to the Alde.

(Or, is it the water being 'carried' in copper that causes the problem ?)

[Nightwatch]

33 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It's not usually that straightforward. 

 

The PRV is probably working correctly, i.e. opening to prevent the pressure in your system rising too high. The reason for it rising too high needs divining. Hard questions need answering, such as:

 

Do you have an accumulator fitted? 

 

Did the start of this problem coincide with replacing a duff water pump?

 

Does your calorifier have a non return valve fitted in the cold water inlet port?

 

 

 

Yes, we have a accumulator installed. I suspect needs pumping up a little as the pump cuts in periodically for a couple of seconds. 

 

Had the same water pump since aquiring Nightwatch 15 years ago. Repaired a few times. It's sureflo to be sure.

 

Not sure about the non return valve. Doesn't look like it to be honest. I assume!! that the supply to the Calorifier is into the top if the tank. Followed the pipes. Not evident.

 

Not only, but also, there is evidence of the emersion heater flange leaking. Staining down the tank. Reluctant to try to 'nip it up' for fear of twisting the copper tank fitting.

 

advice please.

 

 

[bizzard]

A large Magnum Champagne bottle with a half blown up balloon trapped inside with a T piece araldited into its neck makes an excellent acumulator.

Drink the champagne first.

Edited May 31, 2019 by bizzard

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, bizzard said:

A large Magnum Champagne bottle with a half blown up balloon trapped inside with a T piece araldited into its neck makes an excellent acumulator.

Drink the champagne first.

 

A proper accumulator is far cheaper, but the contents never taste quite the same....

 

 

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Yes, we have a accumulator installed. I suspect needs pumping up a little as the pump cuts in periodically for a couple of seconds.

 

This alone would cause the symptoms you describe. Having a flat one is no different from having none at all.

 

7 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Not sure about the non return valve. Doesn't look like it to be honest. I assume!! that the supply to the Calorifier is into the top if the tank. Followed the pipes. Not evident.

 

You won't be able to see it. The only way to find out is to disconnect the inlet pipe and peer in the hole. OR read the manual.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Not only, but also, there is evidence of the emersion heater flange leaking. Staining down the tank. Reluctant to try to 'nip it up' for fear of twisting the copper tank fitting.

 

 

I think your calorifier may be cracked then, unless it is the fibre washer seal under the immersion itself that is leaking. Sadly probably caused by leaving the accumulator flat. The copper develops metal fatigue with the constant swings in pressure and splits. That's my theory anyway.

 

 

[frangar]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So all you really need is a 6" length of plastic pipe joined to the copper piping and t'other end to the Alde.

(Or, is it the water being 'carried' in copper that causes the problem ?)

According to Alde it’s the water acting as an electrolyte even with antifreeze or corrosion inhibitors. There was quite explicit instructions in the installation manual when I looked it up. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, frangar said:

According to Alde it’s the water acting as an electrolyte even with antifreeze or corrosion inhibitors. There was quite explicit instructions in the installation manual when I looked it up. 

 

Use champagne instead of water. That'll fix it!!

 

 

[hider]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

According to Alde it’s the water acting as an electrolyte even with antifreeze or corrosion inhibitors. There was quite explicit instructions in the installation manual when I looked it up. 

So what's the difference between that and millions  of engines with alloy parts? Or is it crappy alloy they use in their heat exchanger?

Wouldn't want one if its that fickle.

[Nightwatch]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This alone would cause the symptoms you describe. Having a flat one is no different from having none at all.

 

 

You won't be able to see it. The only way to find out is to disconnect the inlet pipe and peer in the hole. OR read the manual.

 

 

 

I think your calorifier may be cracked then, unless it is the fibre washer seal under the immersion itself that is leaking. Sadly probably caused by leaving the accumulator flat. The copper develops metal fatigue with the constant swings in pressure and splits. That's my theory anyway.

 

 

Thanks for the good news. Me thinks a new tank anyway. There's a mass of pipework in Calorifier corner and lots and lots of dust, cobwebs and general dirt, so at least a good clean out. My excuse is I've been bust avoiding CRT checkers.

Tried to pump up the accumulator a couple if times. Couldn't get any air into it. Bought a new pump now so will try later. Might the accumulator have the type of valve that needs loosening? Perhaps I need a valve key. I'll get one.The new pump has a gauge. Approximately to what pressure? Please.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Tried to pump up the accumulator a couple if times. Couldn't get any air into it.

 

You did turn the pump OFF and open all the hot taps first, didn't you?

 

It won't pump up without doing this. Pump it up to the same pressure as your pump cut-in pressure. Probably about 1.7 bar. The shut the taps and turn the pump ON again.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Take a small blunt screwdriver and push it through the insulation bulge until you feel the copper beneath. Mark the depth of penetration with your thumbnail then push it again through the insulation where there is no bulge. I expect you will be able to demonstrate to yourself the bulge only exists in the insulation. If so, you have a 'non-problem'. Just get on with enjoying having hot water and spend the £600 on more beer. 

Excellent advice but do it gently or you might need a new cauliflower after all!

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, hider said:

So what's the difference between that and millions  of engines with alloy parts? Or is it crappy alloy they use in their heat exchanger?

Wouldn't want one if its that fickle.

The engines with alloy parts don’t have copper parts, the pipes and radiator all being aluminium.