Domestic batteries - cheapo's or good 'uns

[Neil Corbett]

I need new domestic batteries and have been asking people whose views I respect about what to get. The trouble is they don't agree. Expert A - a well known and respected boating guru says he's tried the dear ones and they don't live up to expectations. Next time he's going to get 110 amp hr batteries for 50 quid each and change them when they fail in a couple of years. Expert B - a well respected boat engine repairer says cheapo 110 amp hr batteries have such thin plates they don't stand up well to deep cycle work and if you get ,say, two 135amp hr batteries instead of 3 110 amp hr ones you'll get better performance and longer life. He says the 135s have much more substantial plates and will put up with deeper discharge without damage.

 

135s look to be roughly twice the price per battery sometimes. In fact prices seem to vary hugely without any particular assurance about quality, even within the plain wet cell types.

 

Well, in their own way, they might both be right. What do you think?

 

Neil

Edited November 4, 2007 by Neil Corbett

[Tony Brooks]

I need new domestic batteries and have been asking people whose views I respect about what to get. The trouble is they don't agree. Expert A - a well known and respected boating guru says he's tried the dear ones and they don't live up to expectations. Next time he's going to get 110 amp hr batteries for 50 quid each and change them when they fail in a couple of years. Expert B - a well respected boat engine repairer says cheapo 110 amp hr batteries have such thin plates they don't stand up well to deep cycle work and if you get ,say, two 135amp hr batteries instead of 3 110 amp hr ones you'll get better performance and longer life. He says the 135s have much more substantial plates and will put up with deeper discharge without damage.

 

135s look to be roughly twice the price per battery sometimes. In fact prices seem to vary hugely without any particular assurance about quality, even within the plain wet cell types.

 

Well, in their own way, they might both be right. What do you think?

 

Neil

 

 

Ask Gibbo - he cuts em up and investigates them for a living.

 

If you can look after them properly - like get them FULLY charged - not 85 or 95%, but 100% each day then probably the most cost effective option is a bank of 2V true deep cycle cells. They should last 10 or 12 years at several hundred pounds. However if you can not then you will ruin them by sulphation long before they "wear out" so I think Gibbo and myself accept that most batteries are killed by neglect and sulphation long before they expire of old age and in these circumstances cheap and often probably makes more sense.

 

Tony Brooks

[Guest]

Ask Gibbo - he cuts em up and investigates them for a living.

 

If you can look after them properly - like get them FULLY charged - not 85 or 95%, but 100% each day then probably the most cost effective option is a bank of 2V true deep cycle cells. They should last 10 or 12 years at several hundred pounds. However if you can not then you will ruin them by sulphation long before they "wear out" so I think Gibbo and myself accept that most batteries are killed by neglect and sulphation long before they expire of old age and in these circumstances cheap and often probably makes more sense.

 

Tony Brooks

Seconded. If you have no shorepower or "proper" charger, then get cheapos. Whatever you buy they will be knackered in a few short years, unless you have shorepower of course. This is based on my own (bitter) experience and that of several live-aboard friends.

[NB Willawaw]

I seem to recall that you are a liveaboard.

What make and size of batteries hav you been using up to now.

How long did they last ?

[David Schweizer]

Ask Gibbo - he cuts em up and investigates them for a living.If you can look after them properly - like get them FULLY charged - not 85 or 95%, but 100% each day then probably the most cost effective option is a bank of 2V true deep cycle cells. They should last 10 or 12 years at several hundred pounds. However if you can not then you will ruin them by sulphation long before they "wear out" so I think Gibbo and myself accept that most batteries are killed by neglect and sulphation long before they expire of old age and in these circumstances cheap and often probably makes more sense.Tony Brooks

That concurs with my experience. I replaced the last set of extra deep cycle batteries on my boat after 13 years service, and they were not completey knackered at that point.

 

The problem is that extra deep cycle batteries are a bit more difficult to source. Most Chandleries only stock Leisure Batteries, which are not the same thing, but these people will supply them mail order at a fairly reasonable cost:-

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/cgi-bin/...re/commerce.cgi

Edited November 5, 2007 by David Schweizer

[magnetman]

I use cheap 110s. I kill them fairly quickly as they are used 365 days a year and don't always fully charge them, no shore line. I expect expensive ones would be as easy to kill but not sure as I haven't tried them.

[bristol & argo]

I use cheap 110s. I kill them fairly quickly as they are used 365 days a year and don't always fully charge them, no shore line. I expect expensive ones would be as easy to kill but not sure as I haven't tried them.

 

We tried some reasonably expensive lorry batteries, still killed them in a year.

 

The pair of £50 cheapies we bought in June, are in the process of expiring after four months (i think that is a record for us!)

 

 

We normally kill a set of four 100Ah batteries in a year, killing two in four months appears to have been false economy.

 

 

 

Simon.

[chris w]

We tried some reasonably expensive lorry batteries, still killed them in a year.

 

The pair of £50 cheapies we bought in June, are in the process of expiring after four months (i think that is a record for us!)

We normally kill a set of four 100Ah batteries in a year, killing two in four months appears to have been false economy.

Simon.

 

It's almost certainly NOT the batteries but your charging and/or maintenance regime. What IS your charging regime ie: equipment, time, charging current, charging voltage etc.

 

Chris

[stuart]

It's almost certainly NOT the batteries but your charging and/or maintenance regime. What IS your charging regime ie: equipment, time, charging current, charging voltage etc.

 

Chris

 

I'd agree, I've had 3x 100Ah battery (about £40 each) for 3 years, just about knackered now. Hardly hold a charge overnight. No shoreline/charger just occasional trips (6hrs+) then left standing for a couple of weeks at a time.

[magnetman]

4 months sounds bad. Were they actually new when bought?.i have suspicions that used batteries are sometimes sold as new (even a few months old if hammered makes a difference but the thing may look new) I get batteries from a wholesaler called 'denka' in Croxley/Watford. I can get about 18 to 24 months out of a set but they are replaced before they are totally killed.

[Keeping Up]

The boat came with a det of Fulmen batteries (which are expensive). After a month we sent them back, and they were replaced FoC. After another couple of months we sent the new ones back, and Fulmen did a thorough investigation before returning them with a note saying "There is nothing wrong with these batteries except that they will not hold a charge". We had them replaced with some cheapies which lasted a couple of years, as did the next set of cheapies.

 

Next we bought a set of Elecsols. Some people had bad experiences with Elecsols. All I know is that our first set lasted 5 years and the next set lasted nearly 4 years, with no problems.

 

Earlier this year I replaced them with some Yuasa leisure batteries from Halfords. These were in theory the same as the old Lucas ones which Gibbo had investigated in detail and had found to be very good. Indeed Yuasa said they were the same as the ols Lucas ones. They lasted for 6 weeks of use over a 3 month period before dying from sulpahtion, and I got my money back from Halfords. I replaced them with a set of Varta marine batteries (mainly because they're the ones recommended by Adverc who made my alternator controller) and after continuous and fairly heavy daily usage for 4 months now they seem to be holding up OK.

[John Orentas]

I believe that Neil, the original contributer was genuinely asking as to what have been the experiences of others, what happened was the usual 'swamping' by the people who are attempting to profit by all this.. I have written several times that I consistently get a minimum of five years from cheap batteries and I commented on one which I have just removed that was close to twenty years old.

 

We constantly read on this forum, glowing reports of the high performance of add-on charge regulators which most of us have been persuaded are essential bits of kit for our boats.. Do any of of us really imagine that there is no connection, are we surprised that it it is possible to destroy batteries by grossly over charging them.

[Maverick]

Its not only the price that needs to be considered but the ammount of use they will get. I am just a leisure cruiser who holidays on board about 3 weeks a year and plenty of weekends. Cheap £50 batteries work fine for me with no probs.

 

Also if you plan on keeping the same boat for many years or live onboard then makes good sense to buy good quality but remember if you only have the boat a couple of years your expensive batteries wont increase the value of your boat.

[Neil Corbett]

Thanks everyone for comments so far. Just to fill out my experience so far. I bought our boat in February 2006 and I believe the 3 x110 amp batteries were about a year old. They are now incapable of holding charge. Assuming they were mid price ones and they have lasted two and a half years, I'm not too unhappy although we have had a difficult summer with them and I should have ditched them earlier.

 

We don't live on the boat. When cruising (about 75 days a year) we average 5hrs a day and use the batteries for fridge, lights, water pump, radio, and a 100w inverter which is occasionally used for running a 240v TV. So our power audit shows that we don't use all that much.

 

When the boat is not in use I try to get the batteries fully charged using a sterling 3 stage charger on shore power. It is then left for anything up to a month. We have a sterling alternator controller which has been disconnected for a year following charging problems. These charging problems presumably did the batteries no good at all. I suspect however that the charging problems were really caused by a dodgy alternator as it was only delivering 13 volts before it packed up. Our new alternator (70amp)appears to give about 14.3 volts (measured on a Fluke - before Gibbo says anything!).

 

I doubt very much that we will always be able to keep the batteries fully charged, especially when we stop for three days or so during a cruise, or when the boat is left at its moorings, so I reckon I will follow Tony B's advice (never a bad thing to do ) and get cheapos. I got a couple of quotes recently. Our local motor factor who will always try to beat another price could only manage £90, our local tyre and battery place renowned for good value quoted £54.

[Yoda]

Please note that due to the rise in cost of raw materials, prices for batteries will and have gone up alot.

[John Orentas]

Please note that due to the rise in cost of raw materials, prices for batteries will and have gone up alot.

 

 

I've been trawling around for prices during the past 2 weeks, the going rate for a 110 a/h is about £65.00 + vat.. They were £45.00 only a couple of years ago. That price of lead stuff is no more than a trick.

Edited November 5, 2007 by John Orentas

[Sir Nibble]

It's the price of copper that went through the roof, I have noticed no sudden increase in battery prices.

[Yoda]

Price of lead pb, has gone up. I was listerning to the owner of Lincoln Batteries last week complaining about it. Also church roofs and other metal roofs are being stripped off again. Make sure yours is welded down!

[smileypete]

We tried some reasonably expensive lorry batteries, still killed them in a year.

 

The pair of £50 cheapies we bought in June, are in the process of expiring after four months (i think that is a record for us!)

We normally kill a set of four 100Ah batteries in a year, killing two in four months appears to have been false economy.

 

Wow! I'd invest in a hydrometer to see how well they're are being charged (or not!).

 

A reasonable voltmeter to find out the charge voltage would also be handy.

 

A hydrometer will also give some idea of how much they're being flattened before charging.

 

I take it they're being used and charged daily.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[blackrose]

I believe that Neil, the original contributer was genuinely asking as to what have been the experiences of others, what happened was the usual 'swamping' by the people who are attempting to profit by all this.. I have written several times that I consistently get a minimum of five years from cheap batteries and I commented on one which I have just removed that was close to twenty years old.

 

We constantly read on this forum, glowing reports of the high performance of add-on charge regulators which most of us have been persuaded are essential bits of kit for our boats.. Do any of of us really imagine that there is no connection, are we surprised that it it is possible to destroy batteries by grossly over charging them.

 

I was led to believe it's more commonly the undercharging of batteries that kills them. Also, although our resident electrical gurus tend to disagree about the necessity of external alternator regulators, I don't recall any of them saying that they overcharge batteries.

 

When someone says their batteries lasted for 10 years, or another anecdote recounts how they killed their batteries within months, then it's important that they also tell us their charging and maintainence regimen. Without this information the anecdote is meaningless. Most importantly in this respect, are you on shore power and are your batteries on constant charge with a 4 stage charger? This will make all the difference.

 

Also if you are on constant charge when did you last leave your mooring and how were your batteries? Some people stay on constant charge with completely knackered dried up batteries which they have never topped up. They don't even know the batteries are dead due to the powerpack function of their battery charger which will continue to allow DC appliances to operate.

Edited November 5, 2007 by blackrose

[matrix]

sorry to butt in but didn't want to start a similar topic

but are "numax" leisure batteries any good??

seem to be a name that crops up a lot and are very competitively priced!!

[smileypete]

I have written several times that I consistently get a minimum of five years from cheap batteries and I commented on one which I have just removed that was close to twenty years old.

 

We know JohnO , but since you never give details of them or how they're used, this isn't much use, is it?

 

Five years or more from a reasonably well charged but lightly used battery is nothing special, I'd expect twenty years is doable if a large drop in capacity is OK.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Tony Brooks]

I was led to believe it's more commonly the undercharging of batteries that kills them. Also, although our resident electrical gurus tend to disagree about the necessity of external alternator regulators, I don't recall any of them saying that they overcharge batteries.

 

When someone says their batteries lasted for 10 years, or another anecdote recounts how they killed their batteries within months, then it's important that they also tell us their charging and maintainence regimen. Without this information the anecdote is meaningless. Most importantly in this respect, are you on shore power and are your batteries on constant charge with a 4 stage charger? This will make all the difference.

 

snip

 

 

OK - I reckon to get three years from a set of two/three 110 Ah domestic batteries. No name ones from a local supplier, Elecosol & Exide to date. (Changing to three batteries over the coming winter). I suspect many boaters would push the battery life out for another year or so, but when my ammeter starts indicating an incipient problem I tend to act to keep the boat reliable for the family.

 

Charging from alternator plus Adverc so maximum charging voltage 14.5, but only in bursts of 20 mins on and off until it thinks the batteries are well charged.

 

Engine run for at least an hour about once a month during the winter and a minimum of three hours per day during the summer when at IWA Festivals. Normal daily running time is 4 hours plus.

 

Early indications are that the 60w solar panel plus expensive Stecca regulator (It will do an equalisation charge) that I fitted in June will extend the life of the batteries,

 

No shore power, and only "Ah hungry" items are an electric fridge and Alde central heating.

 

Tony Brooks

[pagan witch]

My ex Black Prince hire boat was fitted with 3 X 110 Ah cheapo batteries when we got it and one died about 18 months back.

 

I ignored the 'replace them all at once' stuff and replaced the one duffer (found with a hydrometer not a volt meter) and so far so good. In fact it gets better. Someone on the marina here did a 'replace them all' and after hydrometer checking the lot I gleaned a good start battery (which is now in use after the original died) and another leisure so we now have 4 X 110 Ah.

 

We have shore power running a Mastervolt charger and the bog standard alternator (couldn't even tell you it's alleged rating) charges everything up nicely when we are out.

 

Keep it simple.

[NB Willawaw]

Okay Neil.

You've kinda answered your own question.

My experience is that its not worth spending a fortune on batteries.

Based on your cruising pattern and usage, I would have suggested buying inexpensive wet lead acid batteries

without resorting to the bargain basement ones.

 

In saying that, we do liveaboard most of the time and I junked my two year old gel batteries and fitted 2V traction cells.