Manslaughter verdict in Winderemere boat deaths

[Guest]

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/News/Lakes/Jury-gives-verdict-in-Windermere-boat-death-case--04721371-2d2a-42a9-9492-dc9b28255eca-ds

 

Can't locate the original thread on this but this was the outcome today. He is to be sentenced shortly.

 

(By coincidence we are in the Lake District and were in Bowness today and caught this in the news tonight)

 

Ed Title should of course be Windermere

Edited October 26, 2015 by MJG

[Southern Star]

Personally, I don't see how mechanical incompetence can be a criminal act.

[RLWP]

Manslaughter by gross negligence. Nice piece on Wikipedia if you look it up

 

Richard

[Southern Star]

The Wikipedia entry confirms my understanding of manslaughter, that it requires recklessness or criminal negligence as a factor. Eteson carried out poor quality work on a generator. I'm surprised that that was considered to be a criminal act.

[RLWP]

Gas engineer doesn't understand the dangers of carbon monoxide? Not very likely, is it

 

I cannot find the MAIB report, there's a previous thread : http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55499&hl=windermere#entry1052796

 

Richard

Edited October 26, 2015 by RLWP

[Giant]

MAIB report here.

[RLWP]

MAIB report here.

Thank you. How did you find it?

 

Richard

[Giant]

Thank you. How did you find it?

 

Googling for MAIB and Windemere. I couldn't see it in their reports list on the website.

 

I see they've now been merged into the gov.uk site.

[David Mack]

 

Googling for MAIB and Windemere. I couldn't see it in their reports list on the website.

 

I see they've now been merged into the gov.uk site.

 

Done the same on the RAIB site too. Makes it difficult to find anything!

[mark99]

People/society have got to understand there are serious consequence of serious ineptitude. Esp. as a trained specialist individual.

[RLWP]

Done the same on the RAIB site too. Makes it difficult to find anything!

Doesn't it!

 

Richard

[David Mack]

Personally, I don't see how mechanical incompetence can be a criminal act.

 

But this wasn't just mechanical incompetence was it. It caused the deaths of two people.

 

The modification of the generator and its exhaust was a bodge of the first order, that he really should have known better than to do. That makes it reckless, rather than merely incompetent.

[DHutch]

Either way, bad news all round.

 

MAIB report here.

As always the MAIB report is an interesting read, in depth, through, and an eye-opener as to how things can go wrong and how they are seen by those who read them.

 

I can really see the thinking and motivation between installing these portable generators as 'permanent' installations in this way, and I am sure it could have been done in a way which would have prevent this from happening. However it would be a brave person to do it again, and I must say, if only the risk of going against the 'do not modify run in enclosed spaces' from a legal view point should it go wrong, its not something I would do.

 

Furthermore, I am pleased to say that the CO alarm on EmilyAnne is in date, tested periodically, and will be replaced once it it time expired. Infact as its coming up to its due date I feel a new one for next year might in order.

 

 

Daniel

[RLWP]

I must say, I'm surprised how short the exposure times were before the occupants received serious doses of CO. I thought it was a slower, more pernicious thing

 

Richard

[Rufford]

Being a gas engineer he should and would have known of the dangers, I am appalled at his bodge up of an exhaust.

 

What really worries me is that I did somewhat the same when I first fitted my generator. Pipe from the generator into two car back boxes that had been welded together out to some more pipe and a flexible steel pipe connecres by a jubilee to a hull fitting.

 

Some days the generator would cut out for no reason. It was only upon taking it out to fit to into Rufford that I saw the quality of the weld to a nut on on the steel pipe. And the flexi steel pipe is not air tight.

 

When it was fitted to Rufford I made sure I brought the proper woven mesh bellow flex pipe (the one I had refused to buy previously because it was 80 quid for a bit of pipe), and a proper exhaust. It is fine now with the new setup however if the generator had not had a CO alarm and cut out I probably would not be here.

 

And all to save 80 quid. What does need to be compulsory and also better publicized is CO alarms. Bad DIY aside, chimneys and exhausts can get blocked for any reason, fridges and gas heaters can malfunction at any time but a simple ten quid alarm will tell you this, it should at least be a BSC failure if one is not fitted.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Rufford

[Lady Muck]

Ive got a photo on my mobile of a boat we saw in the summer ( took a photo because I couldnt believe my eyes). Big genny, mustve been 3kva , running about six hours a day, every day, at least, inside the doors of a trad, with an exhaust botched and coming out of a hole in the roof of the boat. Bonkers.

[mango]

I must say, I'm surprised how short the exposure times were before the occupants received serious doses of CO. I thought it was a slower, more pernicious thing

 

Richard

From memory, this was a suitcase generator in an enclosed space under the deck. If the generator is using up the oxygen and replacing it with carbon dioxide I expect combustion will become less efficient leading to increasing production of carbon monoxide.

[MtB]

What really worries me is that I did somewhat the same when I first fitted my generator. Pipe from the generator into two car back boxes that had been welded together out to some more pipe and a flexible steel pipe connecres by a jubilee to a hull fitting.

 

Was this a portable petrol genny or one designed to be permanently installed?

[mango]

 

Was this a portable petrol genny or one designed to be permanently installed?

There's a link to the MAIB report above.

[Rufford]

Thankfully a proper marine one with lots of safety sensors. Didn't even have a CO alarn at the time. Not my wisest moment.

[alan_fincher]

There's a link to the MAIB report above.

 

I think MTB is asking about "Rufford;s" generator, not the one in the MAIB report, as he has quoted Rufford's post.

[gazza]

What a bloody plank, fancy soldering an exhaust up

 

Poor buggers never stood a chance.

[MtB]

There's a link to the MAIB report above.

 

 

I've read the report and know what was installed in the ARNISTON.

 

I was asking Rufford which genny he was writing about installing in his own boat!

 

Edit to add: Opps, just noticed others have now posted pointing this out too. Oh the joy of answering a post without noticing the thread has rolled on to another page of posts!

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[Graham.m]

I think it is not generally accepted that a person whose training and qualifications is liable if anything he recommends, advises or does causes loss, injury or death to someone else. In this case Matthew Eteson as a gas fitter will be a registered Gas Safe Engineer and as such would have been aware of the dangers of all exhaust gases from the of combustion of fuels. It does not matter whether the actions that he took were for payment, a favour or for his own use he should have know the possible results and dangers.

 

That criminal liability applies to every person who claims technician or engineer status or just puts themselves forward as an experience person.

 

ed correct sense

Edited October 27, 2015 by Graham.m

[keble]

From memory, this was a suitcase generator in an enclosed space under the deck. If the generator is using up the oxygen and replacing it with carbon dioxide I expect combustion will become less efficient leading to increasing production of carbon monoxide.

Your point about "using up the oxygen" is very important.

 

On a RCR maintenance course a while ago I was very surprised to hear some numbers about just how much air an engine does need. He also stated that many boat designers were ignorant and did not provide enough air intake, to the extent that some cruiser sterns only got enough air via the cover boards!

 

I found an online calculator for air intake. For the example of a 1.5 litre diesel at 1800 rpm it comes up with 1215 litres per minute (43 cubic feet per minute).

 

See http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/CFM.html

Edited October 27, 2015 by keble