Perkins Engine 3.152 Spluttering and Stalling

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Checked the body screws all were tight, only managed to get something like a 1/16th of a turn on them. 

Lever still doesnt pump more than the drips seen in the video.

Will check the return tonight. 

 

Questions:

Which return? High pressure side, so from the injectors back to the filter housing?

Is there anything that might catch me out when ordering a new lift pump?

People keep saying filterS, I can only find one filter...am I missing something?

 

I don't think it's "completely shot", as you can see from the vid it still drips oil through, as mentioned previously the dripping increases when cranking.

I don't know why you thought the engine permanently needs easy start to get going? I've never said that, it starts fine.

 

1. There is no high pressure return, what manages to leak past the injector needles will be at low pressure the same  as the fuel filter.  In fact the injector leak off often joins the filter leak back pipe.

 

If you do have a DPA pump then there is also a return from pump to filter but it is nothing to do with the actual leak off system.

 

If there is no return from filter head to tank then you are very likely to get frequent stopping with air in the system.

 

2. Probably not with ordering as long as you are dealing with a proper supplier and not an Ebay type. When fitting you have to make sure the operating arm is  on the correct side of the camshaft. On some engines it is easy to hook it around the back and end up wrecking the pump - it all depends upon design.

 

3. A good installation will have at least one water trap between tank and lift pump. This may or may not contain a filter. A shoddy instillation is unlikely to have this so if there is nothing between your tank and lift pump but pipe then draw your own conclusions.

 

[dmr]

Most boats have two filters so anything that gets past the first is caught by the second. Usually its fueul tank - first filter - lift pump - second filter - engine. So fuel is sucked through the first filters so its critical not to have any leaks or air is sucked in.  There is a return line (sometimes called spill rail) from injectors back to the fuel tank. Its at low pressure. Injectors are designed to leak a little fuel to cool and lubricate themselves. It often also links to the injector pump.

 

......................Dave

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Lift pumps are a bit of a nightmare! There's shed loads of em! 

Couldnt see a number on mine anywhere, does anyone know where the part number would be stamped?

Engine number and Diperk will sort you out. www.diperk.co.uk

 

The problem is that although pumps may be similar externally the operating arm that is inside the engine is likely to vary from engine  model to engine model.

 

The alternative is to fit an electric lift pump from a motor factors in place of the mechanical one.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[sirweste]

Cheers, lazy English previously, I do realise that the injector return isn't at high pressure, the filter would find it exciting if it was of course!

Cheers for the diperk link, they are so expensive in my experience. The ebay options range from £17 to £70 for ones that visually look similar. Will call diperk now.

 

Do you guys agree then, the lift pump definitely seems like it isn't performing as it should?

I'm thinking that it's perhaps the cause of my inability to bleed and get the engine started after air has been drawn into the system.

 

It may not have been the cause of the spluttering, that I'm still assuming is the filter (singular). 

Edited September 6, 2018 by sirweste

[bizzard]

30 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Cheers, lazy English previously, I do realise that the injector return isn't at high pressure, the filter would find it exciting if it was of course!

Cheers for the diperk link, they are so expensive in my experience. The ebay options range from £17 to £70 for ones that visually look similar. Will call diperk now.

 

Do you guys agree then, the lift pump definitely seems like it isn't performing as it should?

I'm thinking that it's perhaps the cause of my inability to bleed and get the engine started after air has been drawn into the system.

 

It may not have been the cause of the spluttering, that I'm still assuming is the filter (singular). 

To eliminate air leaks, blockages down stream to the tank, undo the flexible pipe on the left hand side of the glass filter bowl, ideally the other end of it where it connects to the pipe that leads to the rear end. Undo the outlet pipe on the pump.  Set up a can of diesel fuel next to on a level with the engine, pop the flexi pipe well into it and pump the pump hand lever and or turn the engine over. Fuel should should quickly fill the glass bowl and then gush out of the pumps outlet in pulses quite strongly.

Edited September 6, 2018 by bizzard

[sirweste]

OK cheers.  Will nip home at dinner time and try your suggestion

 

Filter is on it's way. Need to order from diperk before 4 to get the pump tomorrow, bargain at £26

[Stilllearning]

33 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Cheers, lazy English previously, I do realise that the injector return isn't at high pressure, the filter would find it exciting if it was of course!

Cheers for the diperk link, they are so expensive in my experience. The ebay options range from £17 to £70 for ones that visually look similar. Will call diperk now.

 

Do you guys agree then, the lift pump definitely seems like it isn't performing as it should?

I'm thinking that it's perhaps the cause of my inability to bleed and get the engine started after air has been drawn into the system.

 

It may not have been the cause of the spluttering, that I'm still assuming is the filter (singular). 

So there is no inline water trap/agglomerator in line between the tank and the lift pump. I can’t remember if you said that the tank was definitely clean and sludge free? An in-line filter saves having to keep cleaning out the lift pump bowl, and it is pleasing to be able to visually check the filter bowl is full of diesel, and to just have to open a tap on the bottom of an agglomerator to let and water etc run out every once in a while.

[Tony Brooks]

35 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Cheers, lazy English previously, I do realise that the injector return isn't at high pressure, the filter would find it exciting if it was of course!

Cheers for the diperk link, they are so expensive in my experience. The ebay options range from £17 to £70 for ones that visually look similar. Will call diperk now.

 

Do you guys agree then, the lift pump definitely seems like it isn't performing as it should?

I'm thinking that it's perhaps the cause of my inability to bleed and get the engine started after air has been drawn into the system.

 

It may not have been the cause of the spluttering, that I'm still assuming is the filter (singular). 

 

These pumps deliver fuel by SPRING pressure, not the lever. The lever pulls the diaphragm down to draw fuel into the pump and the spring pushes the diaphragm up to expel the fuel. If no fuel is required the diaphragm stays down and the pump lever mechanism free wheels. Like wise if there is a blockage in the system before the pump the pump will build a depression up in the pipe (and strainer bowl) that holds the diaphragm down. So no I do not agree the lift pump is definitely faulty. It could be  blockage on in the supply to the pump. The trickle of fuel MIGHT be the amount that the blockage passes under whatever depression is in the bowl

 

To test the pump remove both inlet and outlet. Put thumb over outlet and get someone to spin the engaging on the starter a few revolutions. Hold thumb for 20 to 30 seconds and release. If there is no puff of air the n a pump inlet valve is leaking or the diaphragm is holed. Do the same for the inlet and this time you should get asuction.

 

 

[bizzard]

16 hours ago, bizzard said:

We used to brew our own fuel for our control line model aircraft which used diesel engines. Although firms like Keil-Kraft brewed fuel,  ether could be bought over the counter at chemists in those days, as could Dr Collis Browns chlorodine for tummy ache. We mixed it in dads shed with caster oil. I can't remember the ratio but we always overdid the ether for more power.  Once we were nearly put to sleep with the fumes, and staggered out of the shed like zombies as high as a kite, trying to avoid mum who was outside wringing the washing through the mangle in the garden. We flew persuit flying with two planes flying the circle with crepe paper streamers streaming behind them. The idea was to chop off your oponants streamers with your propeller as close as possible to the aircraft. My engine was an ED Racer of 2cc, although the Oliver engines were better but more expensive. Sirweste could shove a couple of gallons in his fuel tank to mix with the diesel, but the ratio is pretty crucial.

Mum and her mangle. I was turning the mangles handle for mum one day in the garden when she passed dads shirt through the rollers, crack!! crack!! crackety crack!!. Dad had left his false teeth in the top pocket and they shot out like machine gun bullets, powerful tools those mangles. Dad did his gums when he found out.

[sirweste]

Ok quick update before I got brush me teeth

 

took the lift pump off (lube oil everywhere) and split it open to understand how it works and look for faults (diesel oil everywhere)

 

it it works fine on the cam lever, and the manual lever also works, but only at the very very end of the stroke. 

 

Fuel line (which is uninterrupted from the tank) was only dripping. So I tried sucking, couldn’t get much juice out. Blew back and bubbles the tank to clear any blockage on the pickup. Now is free flowing. 

 

Gotta get back to the office now, but I suspect this was the issue. New filter will be fitted and should be up and running tomorrow (rock climbing tonight not messing with this again!)

 

cheers again for all all the help 

[NB Esk]

2 hours ago, bizzard said:

Mum and her mangle. I was turning the mangles handle for mum one day in the garden when she passed dads shirt through the rollers, crack!! crack!! crackety crack!!. Dad had left his false teeth in the top pocket and they shot out like machine gun bullets, powerful tools those mangles. Dad did his gums when he found out.

Well, I had been enjoying that nice lunchtime cuppa, 'till I made the mistake of reading one of bizzard's posts at the same time.  Anyway, good news is I've just finished cleaning my iPad and it does seem to still be working okay.

 

 

[sirweste]

Just a mini update. Checked that the return and other lines are clean. Fitted the new filter (singlar). 

Unfortunately I discovered that the lift pumps manual prime lever has worn around the spindle, so it only actuates the diaphragm a tiny amount once bolted to the engine.

In addition when being cranked the pump still seems to fail to draw any fuel in. 

 

So, new one is due today and hopefully I'll be up and running again this evening - so I can get out of this shallow and smelly pound nr Slapton! 

[bizzard]

8 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Just a mini update. Checked that the return and other lines are clean. Fitted the new filter (singlar). 

Unfortunately I discovered that the lift pumps manual prime lever has worn around the spindle, so it only actuates the diaphragm a tiny amount once bolted to the engine.

In addition when being cranked the pump still seems to fail to draw any fuel in. 

 

So, new one is due today and hopefully I'll be up and running again this evening - so I can get out of this shallow and smelly pound nr Slapton! 

When fitting the new pump make sure you get the pumps operating lever on the correct side of the cam in the engine. Usually a sort of hooking motion to get the lever on top of the cam. The lever usually curved and have a wider contact pad on the underside side at the end of the  lever which rides on the cam., but not always.  Take note on how the old one comes out, on which you will see the shiny mark the cam made on the lever.

[sirweste]

Cheers, I've already had it off and in pieces once. I didn't look for a witness mark on the lever, however the lever seems to function by being pushed into the lift pump body. With my finger I could feel the cam at the same height as the pump lever. 

 

Actually thinking about it, the pump is mounted on studs, so it can only be fitted on one axis.

 

Part number was ULPK0018 if anyone else happens to need a 2 bolt pump for a '71 3.152 engine. Got it through Rollo Power in the end, diperk didn't have the correct one on the computer, but Rollo investigated the microfiche drawings to find the correct one. 

[sirweste]

 

ok new pump wasn’t the answer. Both pumps exhibit the same behaviour, the pump lever is actuated to its maximum of the stroke upon fitting.

 This means that the pump doesn’t do any pumping obviously. 

 

 With the pump fitted loose, as in the video, I have cranked the engine over and the pump does not wobble about as you would expect to if the cam lobe were actually moving the lever.

 

The wear on the lever of the old pump is on the outermost face. The old pump also has a makeshift gasket, so it has been removed at some point.

My current suspicion is that the old pump has never worked properly and is currently fully functioning but isnt being installed / actuated correctly

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by sirweste

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, sirweste said:

 

ok new pump wasn’t the answer. Both pumps exhibit the same behaviour, the pump lever is actuated to its maximum of the stroke upon fitting.

 This means that the pump doesn’t do any pumping obviously. 

 

 With the pump fitted loose, as in the video, I have cracked the engine over and the pump does not wobble about as you would expect to if the Camlough were actually moving the lever, 

 

 

 

 

First point. the sort of creaking noise when you rock the pump sounds very like the pump working and moving air. This suggest the lever is on the cam otherwise when you rock it the lever would just wave about and not move relative to the body.

 

Second point. As the lever is probably bearing on the ECCENTRIC (not a cam usually) it may not wave about as you crank the engine but it should make that creaking noise.

 

Third point. If the eccentric has stopped in the position that equates to full lever movement then that is exactly what will happen when you fit the pump. Turn the engine one completer turn and the eccentric should be in the opposite position.

 

Heed what Biz said about getting the lever in the correct position inside the engine. More pumps have been wrecked by not doing this than anything else. Look on the old pump for the polish mark on the lever and make sure the same par fo the lever on the new pump goes against the eccentric.

 

I fear the time has come to take the pump off and use something to measure the distance from the face of the block to the eccentric. Then turn the engine about 90 degrees and repeat. Repeat until you have turned the engine two complete turns. That should tell you  if the eccentric is worn to close to a circle and how much lift it has. This is based on the fact it sounds like it is pumping when you rock it but apparently so does not pump when cranking so one possibility is a worn eccentric. Another is that a mat crud is floating around in the tank and gets drawn over the inlet or an air leak between the fuel level in the tank and the pump. The way you described having to blow back into the tank may support the crud possibility.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[sirweste]

Thanks for the reply.

 

1.

Yes, I understand this, as I said in my post the lever is being actuated to it's full extent upon installation. Both the new pump and old do pump when in hand, just not when installed.

 

2.

When installed and with the engine turning over the pump isn't being actuated. Finger over the outlet, no pumping of air.

 

3.

I considered this and cranked the engine round abit but the installation was the same. I will try this more when I get home.

 

4.

As stated in the previous post the witness mark is on the outer face of the old lever.

 

5.

The pump(s) have been on and off about 5 times at this point! As I said previously I've split open the old one to see it was working - and to understand how it works.

 

6.

It cannot be a worn cam, the lever is pressed to the maximum

 

7.

It cannot be fuel related at this point, nothing is connected.

 

 

So, the lever is always actuated I think, if I had a second pair of hands I would have the engine cranked while measuing the cam / eccentric movement.

It seems to me like the lever arm is too long...

[Tony Brooks]

Any chance of a photo of the old pump showing the whole pump and lever with bright spot?

[Boater Sam]

Is this one of those pumps that should have  a heat insulating 5mm thick gasket? Sure it would have on a petrol engine but on a diesel? It would move the pump away a bit and maybe cure the problem if the pump arm is fully depressed all the time.

[sirweste]

22 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Is this one of those pumps that should have  a heat insulating 5mm thick gasket? Sure it would have on a petrol engine but on a diesel? It would move the pump away a bit and maybe cure the problem if the pump arm is fully depressed all the time.

Yer this is my current thinking. That there's some sort of spacer missing.

But, I would have assumed without the spacer, with the pump too close to the cam it would wreck the pump.

47 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Any chance of a photo of the old pump showing the whole pump and lever with bright spot?

No, but I can show you the grind mark on the new pump...

 

The wear mark is in the same place as the grind

Edited September 11, 2018 by sirweste

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Yer this is my current thinking. That there's some sort of spacer missing.

But, I would have assumed without the spacer, with the pump too close to the cam it would wreck the pump.

No, but I can show you the grind mark on the new pump...

The thick insulating block gaskets were normally only used on petrol engines to prevent engine heat from any vaporizing of the petrol.        And the engine and old pump must have worked ok with the thin gasket anyway, I presume.  Are you absolutely certain that the two pumps AND LEVERS are absolutely identical,  Eye them up side by side and from all sides and that the levers angles are the same. Measure them up from the pumps bolting face to the tips of the levers.  How much free play in each lever before they begin moving the diaphram

[sirweste]

My thinking is that the old lift pump installed with the thin (hand cut) rubber gasket never really did any lifting - hence why I couldn't get the engine primed properly and started without easy start. Thinknign that once primed the injection pump was able to run on the gravity fed fuel pressure...

 

Will line them up when I get home, but I'm fairly certain they are identical. 

Will get some pictures of the cam through the hole too. Will also make sure that I turn the engine through two full revs and try at intervals to fit the pump - to see the difference between arm contact 

[bizzard]

39 minutes ago, sirweste said:

My thinking is that the old lift pump installed with the thin (hand cut) rubber gasket never really did any lifting - hence why I couldn't get the engine primed properly and started without easy start. Thinknign that once primed the injection pump was able to run on the gravity fed fuel pressure...

 

Will line them up when I get home, but I'm fairly certain they are identical. 

Will get some pictures of the cam through the hole too. Will also make sure that I turn the engine through two full revs and try at intervals to fit the pump - to see the difference between arm contact 

I don't like those scrape marks on the lever, looks dented in too. Can you get your finger in the engine slot to feel the accentric and that it is smooth. Looks like your going to have to use a distance piece of some sort. You could experiment with lots of washers on the fixing studs, about 1/4'',no! more than that, best to start with about 1/2'' and reduce as needed if the studs are long enough, and just enter and push the pump in by hand, but don't attempt to start the engine. Just feel and listen to the pump with the engine turned bit by bit until the pump burps, sucks and blows when it should, adjusting the washers as needed. Then measure the thickness of the washers and find a proper thick gasket to that measurement, usually heatproof plastic these days, or even a plywood one fret-sawed up with a gasket on either side would do, pro-tem  Don't attempt to start the engine with just the washers packing it out or the pump body may crack.

Edited September 11, 2018 by bizzard

[sirweste]

[sirweste]

Cheer Biz.

 

Previous picture was of the new pump, the rough marks are from a machine op to make the contact face flat I assumed.

The last picture shows the wear mark on the old pump, contained only to the upper portion of the flatted section.

 

I've arrived at the same conclusion as your post. I'm gonna crank the engine over to where the lobe is most proud (in the direction of the pump) then space the pump out. Then crank it over and feel if its pumping. 

 

Also gonna speak to Rollo power again, very helpful guys and they may have access to a drawing showing if there's indeed a spacer - so the guy thought.

Oh, yer had a look inside and cranked it over by hand feeling the cam. Nothing is wrong in the engine