Small Woolwich construction.

[IanR]

Our boat, Indus was built with a timber bottom and riveted steel sides. Inside on the chine, the angle is riveted to the sides. The angle is also riveted to the baseplate at the same spacing. When the timber bottoms were replaced with steel, would they really have riveted them on, surely welding was commonplace by the time the bottoms were replaced? The bottom plank fixing up through chine angle wouldn't require so many holes (as many as the riveted sides) would it? Or is the chine angle a standard angle section that was mass produced with the holes on both faces and the workers used whichever holes most suited when attaching the planks?

It's puzzled me ever since our original survey when I first noticed the rivets on both sides of the angle and the interest was sparked again with those series of photos from WWII posted in this section a couple of weeks ago when you could clearly see in a few of the pictures elements of how these things were put together.

 

Ian.

[BEngo]

Good Welding was quite an uncommon skill until well after WW2.  Every metal working boat yard would have had rivetting skills because they were essential for many repairs.

When was steel bottom fitted to Indus?  If it was before the late 60's it was probably easier for the boatyard to rivet it in.

Can't answer your question about how the chine angle was originally made though.

N

 

[Tiggers]

You can see the chine angle in the picture of small Woolwich Canis, there are far fewer holes for bottom board bolts than there are rivets to attach the chine angle to the side plate

Better picture

[IanR]

Indus was one of the early boats to get the chop, in the 50's it was cut to make two early BW hire boats, Water Willow (our bit) and Water Reed. It's possible that it was done at the same time perhaps. The holes in the bottom face of the chine angle has twice as many holes than that pic of Canis, perhaps they simply drilled another hole inbetween the existing when the riveting was done. I'll post the pic I have when I get back later.

Ian.

[carlt]

If it was rebottomed at the same time it was chopped in two then wouldn't the welder who built the back end have also welded the bottoms? 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tiggers said:

You can see the chine angle in the picture of small Woolwich Canis, there are far fewer holes for bottom board bolts than there are rivets to attach the chine angle to the side plate

Better picture

Interesting to see that Canis has been refooted with the new footings riveted, and then partially refooted again with welding. Also that the 'wings' of the knee irons have completely rotted away at floor level, but have not been repaired.

[Tiggers]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Interesting to see that Canis has been refooted with the new footings riveted, and then partially refooted again with welding. Also that the 'wings' of the knee irons have completely rotted away at floor level, but have not been repaired.

Give us time, it’s work in progress! She was refooted in the 40s down the bumblehole, hence the rivetted footings. Over the years, she has had patches over the footings, we have taken all these off and let new footings in, leaving the line of rivets. The side pieces of the knees will be replaced but as you can probably tell from the photos, it’s work in progress!

We also believe Ken Keay actually chopped the sides off many of the knees to make access to the chine bolts easier

[IanR]

17 minutes ago, carlt said:

If it was rebottomed at the same time it was chopped in two then wouldn't the welder who built the back end have also welded the bottoms? 

The back end the boat was given by BW in the 50's was simply a flat transom. This was removed when the boat was lengthened and put back into working trim with a motor stern. I suspect that the transom would have been riveted on too if that was when the rebottoming took place. Anyone know if there are any early BW converted hire boats still about in 'transomed trim'?

 

Ian.

[David Mack]

10 minutes ago, Tiggers said:

Give us time, it’s work in progress!

Oh I know all about that!  Belfast is in need of time, progress - and money!

[alan_fincher]

5 minutes ago, IanR said:

Anyone know if there are any early BW converted hire boats still about in 'transomed trim'?

Water Lilac / Antony

Kelso

Plus Aurora has recently had its hull reverted to that style, (though not when I last saw it, some time back,progressed further).

I can't recall any of the new back ends being done riveted, but could be wrong.

[Tiggers]

53 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Oh I know all about that!  Belfast is in need of time, progress - and money!

Canis Major is taking a fair bit of time and money at the moment!

[pete harrison]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Oh I know all about that!  Belfast is in need of time, progress - and money!

 

19 minutes ago, Tiggers said:

Canis Major is taking a fair bit of time and money at the moment!

And I have it got it all to look forward to, if only I could get OTLEY off the Thames 

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, BEngo said:

Good Welding was quite an uncommon skill until well after WW2.  Every metal working boat yard would have had rivetting skills because they were essential for many repairs.

When was steel bottom fitted to Indus?  If it was before the late 60's it was probably easier for the boatyard to rivet it in.

Can't answer your question about how the chine angle was originally made though.

N

'British Waterways' carried out refurbishment of many of their South Eastern Division carrying narrow boats during the 1950's and early 1960's, in addition to routing maintenance and dockings. This included replacing numerous steel cabins with wooden versions, replaced numerous water cooled engines with air cooled versions and a wholesale rebottoming / refooting programme. Some of the rebottoming / refooting was contracted to other yards in the area and during this period a few composite boats had their wooden bottoms replaced with riveted steel bottoms.

I do not know whether INDUS had its wooden bottom replaced with riveted steel during these refurbishments but if it had this may have been a contributing factor in its selection to becoming a pleasure boat 

[X Alan W]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

Interesting to see that Canis has been refooted with the new footings riveted, and then partially refooted again with welding. Also that the 'wings' of the knee irons have completely rotted away at floor level, but have not been repaired.

An extra reason for failure of the knees apart from rust/rot was if carrying coal was a frequent load the coal chippings got between the curve of thr knee & the hull side & with the flex on the boat proceeded  to grind it's way through the flat part of the knees Boats side plate flexing with the tightening /slacking of the chains for loading /unloading on big GU boats caused the steel bottoms to crack around 2 or so inches either side of the channel keelson

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, X Alan W said:

 Boats side plate flexing with the tightening /slacking of the chains for loading /unloading on big GU boats caused the steel bottoms to crack around 2 or so inches either side of the channel keelson

Which is why Fulbourne has doubler plates on the bottom, under the end of each knee:

[alan_fincher]

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which is why Fulbourne has doubler plates on the bottom, under the end of each knee:

I'm sorry, but I can't believe she even wears the boatwoman's bonnet when blacking a baseplate.

I doubt there is a historical precedent for that one!

[pete harrison]

9 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm sorry, but I can't believe she even wears the boatwoman's bonnet when blacking a baseplate.

I doubt there is a historical precedent for that one!

I thought exactly the same when I saw this about 20 minutes ago, but it did make me smile 

[BWM]

On 13/04/2018 at 19:39, David Mack said:

Which is why Fulbourne has doubler plates on the bottom, under the end of each knee:

Has Fulbourne retained the original baseplate? Hawkesbury still had all but the middle section (overplated), but you could see through it in places. 

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, BWM said:

Has Fulbourne retained the original baseplate? Hawkesbury still had all but the middle section (overplated), but you could see through it in places. 

Fulbourne has its original baseplate, but various bits have been patched over the years.

[BWM]

Just now, David Mack said:

Fulbourne has its original baseplate, but various bits have been patched over the years.

That's amazing, a nice thing to keep in place. I was glad to have seen the original in ours but it was too far gone to save - the fellows at Stockton were probably cursing me when removing the baseplate under the engine room, having to cut out the multitude of rivets holding it on. Apparently the usual procedure would involve cutting out the engine beds and dropping the whole assembly out with the base! I didn't want to lose any more original parts than necessary. 

[X Alan W]

On 13/04/2018 at 12:40, IanR said:

Indus was one of the early boats to get the chop, in the 50's it was cut to make two early BW hire boats, Water Willow (our bit) and Water Reed. It's possible that it was done at the same time perhaps. The holes in the bottom face of the chine angle has twice as many holes than that pic of Canis, perhaps they simply drilled another hole inbetween the existing when the riveting was done. I'll post the pic I have when I get back later.

Ian.

In the early 60's Teddy Bowden the then BW sect inspector at Norbury wanted to take his family on a boating holiday so a Bw Hire boat arrived at Norbury Can't rememer if it was Willow or Reed while he was loading his kit it was noticed the bilge had a lot of water in it, a poke about revealed that a rivet tween uxter plate & swim wss leaking the boat was tilted to clear the water & I ground off the swaged rivet shank & replaced it with a nut & bolt with a couple of annealed copper washers tightened & fitted with a lock nut on his return after 2 weeks he reported the boat had not leaked at all ,a note was left on the boat for the turn around crew but no more was heard so no idea if the bolt was replaced with a new rivet or if the bolt soldiered on & if the boat was  refitted at a later date with welded base plate etc at that time the transom, swim, & base plate, were riveted.