New batteries

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Measure your combined height.Subtract height of Duck 1'2". Ergo Dr Bob =5'3"-heels = 5'. QED init.

No I said I was 6' 5". The duck's irrelevant. Don't tell him I said so. Do I win?

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No I said I was 6' 5". The duck's irrelevant. Don't tell him I said so. Do I win?

your no idjit

Edited March 4, 2018 by rusty69

[David Schweizer]

Back to topic -- For what it is worth, we had two US 125 Batteries on Helveitia which are similar to the US2200 battery. They were still giving sterling service after more than nine years when we sold the boat. Admittedly we were not liveaboards, and we did not have a high power demand, but equally we did not have a particularly fancy charging regime, The engine was run every day (normally cruising) for a minimum of two hours with a 55amp alternater charging through a Sterling advanced Alternator Regulator.

[nicknorman]

Wow what a lot of negativity. To the OP, I found cheap shit batteries to be not fit for purpose. I changed for Trojans 4 years ago and chalk and cheese! It will take 50-100 cycles to reach full capacity. Mine were rubbish for the first few cycles.

it does sound as though your charging regime is OK, and you should be able to take them down to 40% SoC without life reduction. I would just suggest keeping an eye on fully charged sg and if it starts to decrease, do something about it (equalise) before it becomes a problem.

There is no “right answer” for tail current, but IMO 2% is on the high side. With longer charging you can get down to 0.5% or less, so you can see that at 2% your batteries are not actually fully charged. So I think you can expect some gradual sulphation which will require equalisation to remedy.

[WotEver]

15 hours ago, Rob99fla said:

Reading the spec, it takes time for these type of batteries to achieve maximum capacity. In the real world of soon to be out on the cut for 8 months, charging with alternator and 400w of solar, is this a matter of weeks or months?

 

13 hours ago, WotEver said:

50-100 cycles as I answered in your other thread asking the same question. 

 

12 hours ago, Rob99fla said:

I was really just asking how long can I expect them to reach full capacity (cycles)

 

8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It will take 50-100 cycles to reach full capacity. Mine were rubbish for the first few cycles.

 

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, Rob99fla said:

I am open to any good suggestions but I really do not know what else I can do. Charge to 1-2 amps tail current every day. Charge at least 14.7 volts.do not let batteries go below 12.2v (now). Perhaps 9-100 amps per day is too higher a discharge for basic leisure batteries

I am going to assume that the 9-100 amps per  day really means 90 to 100 Amp hours per day, otherwise that statement is meaningless. Your two strings of US2200 batteries gives a total capacity of 464 Ah which is well within the often quoted "rule of thumb" that a battery bank needs to start with four times the capacity of the daily consumption so that is good and with daily charging you are unlikely to be over discharging them. However with that consumption and a 100Ah daily load I think the 12.1 rested volts before recharging suggest that you were so one of the following applies:-

1. The bank was well sulphate so it had a much lower capacity.

2. You did not recharge every day.

3. You are actually using more than 100Ah per day or between charging periods.

4. The bank was faulty and self discharging at a rapid rate.

5. The bank of Halfords batteries had a lower capacity than the US2200s.

6. The 12.1 (now 12.2) rested volts was artificial raised by the solar setup so the true rested voltage was much lower.

Of course you may well be correct that the Halford batteries are/were rubbish and if so you have your answer about how many cycles but in view of the Sp. Gr. info you gave usI would keep a very close eye on when you take the rested voltage and try to mrecharge every day.

[WotEver]

This sounds like the ideal installation for a SmartGauge to show the OP just what SoC he is actually dropping to daily. If he sees that start to increase then he knows he’s accumulating sulphation. 

[Dr Bob]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

This sounds like the ideal installation for a SmartGauge to show the OP just what SoC he is actually dropping to daily. If he sees that start to increase then he knows he’s accumulating sulphation. 

...or don't spend the money and measure the at rest voltage before the sun affects the solar and keep an eye on Ahrs out.

 If he sees Ahrs out reducing for a given Vrest then he knows he's accumulating sulphation....or Vrest reducing for a given Ahrs out. If I thought my batteries were failing rapidly, I would record these readings each day. They seem very constant on our set up so I don't.

[MtB]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

6. The 12.1 (now 12.2) rested volts was artificial raised by the solar setup so the true rested voltage was much lower.

 

This point in particular crossed my mind as the possible cause of the problem. Can the OP clarify how he is taking the rested voltage of 12.1 please? To do it correctly I suggest he needs to have disconnect all loads AND the solar for an hour before taking the reading. 

In addition could he clarify his meaningless “9-100amps” daily consumption figure please?

[Rob99fla]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am going to assume that the 9-100 amps per  day really means 90 to 100 Amp hours per day, otherwise that statement is meaningless. Your two strings of US2200 batteries gives a total capacity of 464 Ah which is well within the often quoted "rule of thumb" that a battery bank needs to start with four times the capacity of the daily consumption so that is good and with daily charging you are unlikely to be over discharging them. However with that consumption and a 100Ah daily load I think the 12.1 rested volts before recharging suggest that you were so one of the following applies:-

1. The bank was well sulphate so it had a much lower capacity.

2. You did not recharge every day.

3. You are actually using more than 100Ah per day or between charging periods.

4. The bank was faulty and self discharging at a rapid rate.

5. The bank of Halfords batteries had a lower capacity than the US2200s.

6. The 12.1 (now 12.2) rested volts was artificial raised by the solar setup so the true rested voltage was much lower.

Of course you may well be correct that the Halford batteries are/were rubbish and if so you have your answer about how many cycles but in view of the Sp. Gr. info you gave usI would keep a very close eye on when you take the rested voltage and try to mrecharge every day.

Thank you for some good advice. We are off next week with the new batteries fitted. I will reset the BMV and keep daily notes of amps used and morning rested voltage (I can switch solar panels off easily). I’m soon to fit another 100w solar. Anyway, the US2200 upgrade only cost £150 in the end after a refund on the Halfords and I did have 18 months from them. Thanks again 

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This point in particular crossed my mind as the possible cause of the problem. Can the OP clarify how he is taking the rested voltage of 12.1 please? To do it correctly I suggest he needs to have disconnect all loads AND the solar for an hour before taking the reading. 

In addition could he clarify his meaningless “9-100amps” daily consumption figure please?

I already have a Victron BMV. It was 90-100 amps. I can switch solars off easily. I turn off inverter and wait a while, perhaps not one hour

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Rob99fla said:

Thank you for some good advice. We are off next week with the new batteries fitted. I will reset the BMV and keep daily notes of amps used and morning rested voltage (I can switch solar panels off easily). I’m soon to fit another 100w solar. Anyway, the US2200 upgrade only cost £150 in the end after a refund on the Halfords and I did have 18 months from them. Thanks again 

The bit in red raises some concerns. I hope that you switch between the panels and controller so you really are turning the PANELS off. If you switch between the controller and batteries it goes against every     controller instruction I have seen that makes great play about connecting the batteries before the panels to prevent the controller auto-sensing an incorrect battery voltage. In your case if it did I doubt it would be catastrophic because if the.  controller set itself to 12V then it simply would not charge, but if you had a 12V system that set itself to 24 volts there would be battery trouble.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Rob99fla said:

 

I already have a Victron BMV. It was 90-100 amps. I can switch solars off easily. I turn off inverter and wait a while, perhaps not one hour

 

Your use of Amps when you must mean Amphours worries me. 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, Rob99fla said:

Thank you for some good advice. We are off next week with the new batteries fitted. I will reset the BMV and keep daily notes of amps used and morning rested voltage (I can switch solar panels off easily). I’m soon to fit another 100w solar. Anyway, the US2200 upgrade only cost £150 in the end after a refund on the Halfords and I did have 18 months from them. Thanks again 

I already have a Victron BMV. It was 90-100 amps. I can switch solars off easily. I turn off inverter and wait a while, perhaps not one hour

A point trying to be made to you is that, whilst you do seem to gnenerally have the right idea about battery charging, you don’t seem to understand the units involved. OK it isn’t going to affect the actual situation but if you use the wrong units when discussing problems with other people, confusion will reign. Imagine if you were discussing a trip,and you kept saying “miles”when you meant “hours”.:It would be really confusing and could result in wrong advice.

Battery capacity and the amount of charge used say in a day, is normally measured in amphours. Instantaneous current is measured in amps. Amphours and amp are completely different concepts and if you use the wrong one, there is plenty of scope for confusion and it also tends to make people think you don’t know what you’re talking about. You might as well say you take 90-100 apples out of your battery each day, it would make the same degree of sense! (ie none!). 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Your use of Amps when you must mean Amphours worries me. 

Maybe we are being unfair to the OP. Perhaps he is drawing 90 to 100 amps 24/7 and that would explain the battery problems but if so how he got them to last 18 months I have no idea.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

Maybe we are being unfair to the OP. Perhaps he is drawing 90 to 100 amps 24/7 and that would explain the battery problems but if so how he got them to last 18 months I have no idea.

 

I wondered if he really meant whenever he glances at the BMV display it usually reads between 9a and 100a. This would have explained the short battery life, but apparently not. 

[WotEver]

19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

...or don't spend the money and measure the at rest voltage before the sun affects the solar and keep an eye on Ahrs out.

If it were that easy then there would be no raison d’etre for SmartGauge. ‘At rest’ voltage requires no loads or charging for some considerable time, which I’d suggest is well in excess of an hour depending on what the last load and/or charge was. 

With a SmartGauge he’ll have an instantaneous reading of SoC more or less any time he wishes whilst discharging without having to turn anything off or waiting or otherwise faffing around. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

With a SmartGauge he’ll have an instantaneous reading of SoC more or less any time he wishes whilst discharging without having to turn anything off or waiting or otherwise faffing around. 

 

Last time this point was raised, there was no consensus on whether the smartgauge gets fooled by the presence of solar panels. 

I’m sure I know what you’ll say about this, but will you be right? 

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Last time this point was raised, there was no consensus on whether the smartgauge gets fooled by the presence of solar panels. 

I’m sure I know what you’ll say about this, but will you be right? 

Note that I wrote ‘whilst discharging’. So when it matters, late at night or early morning, we know it will be correct. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Note that I wrote ‘whilst discharging’. So when it matters, late at night or early morning, we know it will be correct. 

 

No we don’t. I can show you two giving different readings on the same battery.  So we know the factory sends them out incorrect. 

 

[Rob99fla]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The bit in red raises some concerns. I hope that you switch between the panels and controller so you really are turning the PANELS off. If you switch between the controller and batteries it goes against every     controller instruction I have seen that makes great play about connecting the batteries before the panels to prevent the controller auto-sensing an incorrect battery voltage. In your case if it did I doubt it would be catastrophic because if the.  controller set itself to 12V then it simply would not charge, but if you had a 12V system that set itself to 24 volts there would be battery trouble.

I have a switch between the panels and solar controller 

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No we don’t. I can show you two giving different readings on the same battery.  So we know the factory sends them out incorrect. 

 

Oh give it a rest Mike!

[Rob99fla]

23 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

A point trying to be made to you is that, whilst you do seem to gnenerally have the right idea about battery charging, you don’t seem to understand the units involved. OK it isn’t going to affect the actual situation but if you use the wrong units when discussing problems with other people, confusion will reign. Imagine if you were discussing a trip,and you kept saying “miles”when you meant “hours”.:It would be really confusing and could result in wrong advice.

Battery capacity and the amount of charge used say in a day, is normally measured in amphours. Instantaneous current is measured in amps. Amphours and amp are completely different concepts and if you use the wrong one, there is plenty of scope for confusion and it also tends to make people think you don’t know what you’re talking about. You might as well say you take 90-100 apples out of your battery each day, it would make the same degree of sense! (ie none!). 

Of course I understand amp hours. It’s just the way I abbreviated it. The BMV shows amp hours used since last fully charge. The BMV assumes full charge with a tail current if 2% (I set this to 2% from default 4%)

There’s a lot of negativity in this forum making assumptions people don’t understand voltage, amps, amp hours. Sometimes it’s just a mid type and sometimes people don’t read the original post properly! The original question was how long to get new batteries to maximum capacity (cycles). I’ve spent a year or more studying every aspect of battery maintenance and fully understand all the technical terms. I’ve read plenty of posts that standard leisure batteries are not heavy duty enough so I’ve upgraded to 6v semi traction batteries like knowledgeable people advice so why’d everyone trying to rubbish everything I say!

[Col_T]

14 hours ago, bizzard said:

Probably lower than 12.1v if the reading was taken from a remote gauge and not direct at the batteries.

Sorry chaps, but I don't understand this.

If the 12.1v reading is taken at the battery terminals then that's the true reading, but surely any reading taken at a remote gauge would show less than 12.1v due to voltage drop along the cable run? How long a cable run would it need to be to give a significant voltage drop?

[nicknorman]

38 minutes ago, Rob99fla said:

Of course I understand amp hours. It’s just the way I abbreviated it. The BMV shows amp hours used since last fully charge. The BMV assumes full charge with a tail current if 2% (I set this to 2% from default 4%)

There’s a lot of negativity in this forum making assumptions people don’t understand voltage, amps, amp hours. Sometimes it’s just a mid type and sometimes people don’t read the original post properly! The original question was how long to get new batteries to maximum capacity (cycles). I’ve spent a year or more studying every aspect of battery maintenance and fully understand all the technical terms. I’ve read plenty of posts that standard leisure batteries are not heavy duty enough so I’ve upgraded to 6v semi traction batteries like knowledgeable people advice so why’d everyone trying to rubbish everything I say!

It’s a public forum to which anyone can contribute so you have to take your chance and just ignore unhelpful advice! You have repeatedly typed amps when you meant amphours and this doesn’t help people to think you fully understand all the technical terms. Especially when you could type AH, which is fewer letters!

Anyway, your specific question has been answered a couple of times, the rest is just people trying to be helpful with varying degrees of success!

Yes the default tail current on the BMV is 4%, ridiculously high. You have reduced it to 2% but that is still on the high side IMO and you can expect some sulphation to accumulate long term, which you should monitor for and fix by equalisation when the cells’ fully charged sg doesn’t get to the manufacturer’s spec by 0.030 or so (temperature corrected, or course).

I don’t think the 2% setting is the reason for the halfords batteries demise, my experience with that type of battery is that they are intrinsically rubbish. But now you have batteries with the capability of lasting much longer, it becomes more important to fully charge because they will (hopefully) have much longer to accumulate slow sulphation. If you can continue the charge and reach 1%, or even 0.5% then clearly it wasn’t fully charged at 2%. Perhaps you should consider sticking with your 2% for most charges, and then perhaps once a week taking it down to 1% or lower (which takes a lot longer). Of course, with the summer coming and your solar, it will be easier to prolong the charge provided your solar controller doesn’t go to float too soon.

These sort of batteries do use water and I would say that if they don’t need topping up every few months, they are not being charged hard enough.

Edited March 5, 2018 by nicknorman

[Boat&Bikes]

13 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

He's not very good at measuring himself. Never used a tape measure before.

Mmmm duck and a tape. Remember, measure twice, slice once.

Ian.