Bosch W11 water heater

[BBPIRATES]

15 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

From the sketchy manual I don't think it has a vitiation device (which shuts the flame off if the oxygen percentage in the atmosphere falls below a certain value), so it meets neither requirement 30 (3) (a) or (b) and therefore cannot be installed in a liveaboard boat. 

I might be reading it wrong but I thought 30 (3) is just saying that it wouldn't be able to be fitted in a sleeping area. So technically would be okay for a live aboard if not in the bedroom?

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, BBPIRATES said:

I might be reading it wrong but I thought 30 (3) is just saying that it wouldn't be able to be fitted in a sleeping area. So technically would be okay for a live aboard if not in the bedroom?

Generally NBs are pretty much open plan and as far as 'ventilation and air supply' - I (MY OWN OPINION) would suggest that a NB could be considered to be all one room. You will note in GSIUR section 4 that it cannot be installed in an adjacent space if there is an air vent between the two.

The crazy thing is that if it were just a "leisure boat" instead of a 'live-aboard boat' then the GSIUR regulations are not involved.

It is all well and good, well-meaning 'blokes on the internet' giving their interpretation, but at the end of the day our opinions are worthless in the real world.

As there is some question regarding the suitability of the water heater for boat use it may well be worth asking the BSS folks for their verdict - they are the ones that you will have to appeal to if you cannot get a boiler-man to fit it.

[alan_fincher]

Slighly off topic, but until this thread, I can't say I was really aware of the existence of this LPG instantaneous gas heater.

As we are told that the Morco D61 is not now being produced, it would seem that this model might be the answer to people who might have fitted (or replaced) a Morco, but may now no longer be able to obtain one.

An obvious advantage to me would seem to be the absence of a permanent pilot light - a real gas waster, in my experience.

So it would be interesting to know whether there is any reason why this model is less suitable for installation in a boat than the Morco ever was.  I don't imagine the Morco actually ever said it was approved for use in boats, (and I think I may even recall some suppliers saying it was not, but, as in this case, not apparently the manufacturer itself).  I'm pretty certain I have also seen it suggested that a Morco's warranty was invalidated if not installed by a registered engineer - this may well have been the acse when I last bought one from Midland Chandlers, I think.

[Alan de Enfield]

Interesting that the new version of GSIUR comes out in April - there are a number of references to boat - a couple of relevant 'snippets'.

Boats 

67 GSIUR applies to certain boats not requiring a load-line certificate, as specified in regulation 2(5)(c). These include: 
(a) boats (both permanently moored and those capable of navigation) which are hired out in the course of a business, eg boats used for holiday accommodation; 
(b) any boat (including those privately-owned/occupied) used solely or primarily for domestic or residential purposes, such as houseboats and those used for cruising but in which the owner/user lives for most of the time;  
(c) boats made available to the public in the course of a business carried out from the vessel, eg floating restaurants and public houses. 
68 Privately owned boats used only for leisure or sporting purposes and not hired out in the course of a business are excluded, as are other ‘inland waterway boats’ not specified in regulation 2(5)(c), eg such boats used as a workplace by an employee of an inland waterway authority for canal repair/clearance purposes etc. Boats requiring a national or international load-line certificate (ie broadly, seagoing cargo-carrying ships) are also excluded from GSIUR, even where used on inland waterways. 
69 Vessels subject to GSIUR will often fall outside the scope of merchant shipping legislation (MSL), ie because they are permanently moored and/or not used for commercial purposes. However, in some cases, such as commercially-operated pleasure boats (eg hire boats) and certain passenger vessels, GSIUR and MSL apply together. Similarly, additional requirements (including gas safety) may be applied by the navigation authority for the waters on which the vessel operates, for example the Boat Safety Scheme administered by the Environment Agency and the Canal & River Trust, as a condition of issuing licences for use of their waterways. 
70 In such situations, compliance with GSIUR will generally satisfy parallel requirements for gas safety under MSL or the relevant navigation authority scheme)

 

263 Under regulation 30(2), non-room-sealed appliances used for water heating, space heating and central heating of 14 kW or more gross heat input should not be installed in accommodation designed for sleeping in, such as bedrooms, bed-sitting rooms and the sleeping areas of caravans. However, non-room-sealed heating appliances of less than 14 kW gross heat input may be fitted in these rooms/areas provided they incorporate a device which turns off the gas supply before a dangerous level of fumes can build up (regulation 30(3)). An instantaneous water heater that is not room-sealed may not be installed in any room unless it incorporates such a device. 

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56-draft.pdf

This fifth edition has been revised to incorporate the amendments made in SI 2018/xxxx Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2018. These amendments are set out below (under ‘Content and scope of this ACOP’). 
L56 (Fifth edition) Published 2018
 
 

[BBPIRATES]

46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

An instantaneous water heater that is not room-sealed may not be installed in any room unless it incorporates such a device

The W11 manual does include this little tidbit: "The flue gas safety device checks the effectiveness of flue gas extraction by the flue. If it is inadequate, the appliances switches off automatically so that the combustion fumes do not escape into the room in which the appliance has been installed. The flue gas safety device resets after a cooling-down period."

Hopefully that is the kind of thing they're talking about.

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As there is some question regarding the suitability of the water heater for boat use it may well be worth asking the BSS folks for their verdict - they are the ones that you will have to appeal to if you cannot get a boiler-man to fit it.

I'll give them a call on Monday. I've spoken to a fitter who will fit it and also an examiner who said he'd pass it but I'm going to hunt down a more conclusive answer just in case anybody else wonders in the future or has to appeal a decision, especially considering the possibility of no more Morco. 

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

As we are told that the Morco D61 is not now being produced, it would seem that this model might be the answer to people who might have fitted (or replaced) a Morco, but may now no longer be able to obtain one.

We were recommended it as a replacement for the Morco. The other recommendation was the Bosch W1359 but that only does 5 litres as opposed to 11.

It's strange though because the W1359 is advertised by a couple of chandlers as being suitable for narrowboats and has exactly the same safety features as the W11. 

[smileypete]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:52, Alan de Enfield said:

Your knowledge on the subject is vastly superior to mine & I am easily confused, so would you be kind enough to explain why/how an 'under 14Kw', non-room sealed, non 'auto shut down', water heater can be installed in a live-aboard narrow boat in the lounge, kitchen, bedroom, or bathroom.

That seems to me to be totally at odds with Section 30 (3)

'Operation and safety precautions

The flue gas safety device checks the effectiveness of flue

gas extraction by the flue. If it is inadequate, the appliance

switches off automatically so that the combustion fumes do

not escape into the room in which the appliance has been

installed. The flue gas safety device resets after a cooling-

down period.

If the appliance shuts down while in operation, ventilate the

room. Wait about 10 minutes then restart the appliance. If

the problem recurs, call an engineer. The user must never

make any modifications to the appliance'

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/19337/Bosch-W11b.html?page=6#manual

 

Seems to have backdraught detection which shuts it down automatically. Nevertheless of course I'd have a couple of CO alarms, one with a digital display, wherever it's installed.
 

Maybe the OP could do a search on the Gas Safe Register website, but only check the option for boats (no need to check the option for LPG as well as all boats are LPG )

 

As for cost, a post on UK plumbers forum may get an explanation from a registered gas bod on there.

Edited January 20, 2018 by smileypete

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Nevertheless of course I'd have a couple of CO alarms, one with a digital display, wherever it's installed.

Agreed.

The GSIUR does make the point that CO alarms are not a substitute for correct installation and maintenance

Carbon monoxide (CO) alarms 
22) CO alarms are not covered by GSIUR or this ACOP. Although CO alarms are a useful back-up precaution they must not be regarded as a substitute for proper installation and maintenance of gas equipment by a Gas Safe registered engineer. Such alarms should comply with BS EN 50291 (see Further Information) and carry the appropriate conformity marking. CO alarms should be installed, checked, maintained and serviced in accordance with manufacturers’ instructions.

Further definitions of GSIUR requirements :

Work in relation to a gas fitting  52 For the purposes of GSIUR, ‘work’ includes do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE-approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses carrying out gas-fitting work

[reg]

The following caravan site

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bosch-w11-lpg-water-heater/4565

States specifically 

"The Bosch W11 is an LPG water heater designed for use in static caravans." 

And

"Not suitable for tourers or other mobile vehicles" 

A narrowboat is a mobile vehicle so based on the above I personally would not fit one I would also want to know what my insurers thought before I did fit one. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by reg

[BBPIRATES]

9 minutes ago, reg said:

The following caravan site

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bosch-w11-lpg-water-heater/4565

States specifically 

"The Bosch W11 is an LPG water heater designed for use in static caravans." 

And

"Not suitable for tourers or other mobile vehicles" 

A narrowboat is a mobile vehicle so based on the above I personally would not fit one I would also want to know what my insurers thought before I did fit one. 

I'd be interested to know what they base that on as that site says the same things about the Morco d61.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, reg said:

The following caravan site

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bosch-w11-lpg-water-heater/4565

States specifically 

"The Bosch W11 is an LPG water heater designed for use in static caravans." 

 

Unsupported statements by retailers like this seem to be commonplace about water heaters.

Can anyone cite the manufacturer saying this?

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, reg said:

The following caravan site

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bosch-w11-lpg-water-heater/4565

States specifically 

"The Bosch W11 is an LPG water heater designed for use in static caravans." 

And

"Not suitable for tourers or other mobile vehicles" 

A narrowboat is a mobile vehicle so based on the above I personally would not fit one I would also want to know what my insurers thought before I did fit one. 

 

1 hour ago, BBPIRATES said:

I'd be interested to know what they base that on as that site says the same things about the Morco d61.

Exactly this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As there are countless Morco D61s installed in canal boats, which BSS examiners seem eminently happy with, why is this Bosch model different.

Can anybody find evidence of the manufacturer declaring it unfit for boat use?

(I'm not about to uninstall our Morco D61, based on what a caravan accessory retailer of the product has chosen to put on their web-site).

[Richard10002]

How on earth does an LPG water heater know whether it is fitted in a static caravan, a mobile home or caravan, or a narrowboat? It doesnt!

What is it about conditions on the mobile things, (narrowboat in particular), that make a difference to the way the combustion products are exhausted, in a way that could be more dangerous than in the static?

When static the mobile things are no different. When moving there could be airflow and vibration issues - i cant think of anything else that relates to the products of combustion.

 

Furthermore, anything that could be equally applicable to a room sealed LPG water heater is not an issue as they are allowed in narrowboats.

[David Mack]

28 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Furthermore, anything that could be equally applicable to a room sealed LPG water heater is not an issue as they are allowed in narrowboats.

 But is there a suitable room sealed LPG water heater on the market?

[MtB]

49 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

How on earth does an LPG water heater know whether it is fitted in a static caravan, a mobile home or caravan, or a narrowboat? It doesnt!

 

It doesn't, but substitute 'boat' for 'narrowboat' and everything changes. 

I'd be pretty confident saying the open flue on this appliance would not work correctly in a boat heeling over at 45 degrees in a force 7 in the North Sea.

If Bosch do actually say anything on the subject I bet they say 'not suitable for boats' rather than 'not suitable for inland water craft'. 

[reg]

https://www.spirit-leisure-accessories.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1150292-Bosch-W11-lpg-water-heater-inc-pipework-connection-kit.html

Ok then here's another one which states

"Please note;these boilers are not covered by warranty when fitted on boats" 

So far I have seen three variations 

1 Ely sell these for use on boats

2 caravan place say "Not suitable for tourers or other mobile vehicles" 

3 this one which states not covered by warranty on boats. 

It's all a bit confusing, difficult to know where retailers are getting info from but it must be from somewhere. Can only find 8 page manual which fails to mention any of these conditions. 

As a layman I find it all very confusing. 

ETA Was typing at same time as MtB. You seem to be correct in that that is the wording they seem to be giving out I. E refering to boats

Edited January 21, 2018 by reg

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, reg said:

As a layman I find it all very confusing

Not sure why.

These are retailers adding in their own conditions of sale, so buy yours from Ely!

[rasputin]

I think it may be due to the flue operation may not work in different places, down draughts etc

A static caravan doesn't move. 

I realise that the flue can only be tested with the wind conditions on the day of installation 

[reg]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Not sure why.

These are retailers adding in their own conditions of sale, so buy yours from Ely!

Purely an academic question but if any retailer specifically states they are for boats what is the legal position. 

Update wording appears to of been changed at

Last Updated: Sunday, 21 January 2018 12:10

Which according to my clock is now 

https://www.elyboatchandlers.com/instantaneous-morco-water-heaters-kits-lpg-at-great-prices/bosch-w11-lpg-instantaneous-water-heater

Not knocking Ely here just trying to figure out if they can be used on boats. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by reg

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, reg said:

Purely an academic question but if any retailer specifically states they are for boats what is the legal position. 

Update wording appears to of been changed at

Last Updated: Sunday, 21 January 2018 12:10

Which according to my click is now 

https://www.elyboatchandlers.com/instantaneous-morco-water-heaters-kits-lpg-at-great-prices/bosch-w11-lpg-instantaneous-water-heater

 

Have they now removed 'boat' or, was it never quoted ?

"Also you should check any relevant legislation relating to fitment of this item to your van, vehicle or home." 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[reg]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have they now removed 'boat' or, was it never quoted ?

"Also you should check any relevant legislation relating to fitment of this item to your van, vehicle or home." 

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, reg said:

Purely an academic question but if any retailer specifically states they are for boats what is the legal position. 

 

The legal position in what way?

If you are concerned about the guarantee, then the retailer can impose whatever conditions he likes.

If you mean legality of fitting the appliance, it depends on what regulations cover your specific installation. I.E. is your planned installation in a bedroom or bathroom? Is it a residence or for leisure use? Are you concerned about meeting BSS? OR RCD? OR GSIUR?

And if the manufacturer specifically excludes it from your proposed use, whatever the retailer says is of no consequence. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[reg]

Can't edit my previous reply 

But 

If it did say it then It doesn't now. 

Just to add I have no issue with Ely and they do state on bold letters

 

If you are unsure if this product is suitable for your application then please feel free to ask us. We would also recommend you speak to your installer prior to purchase

Edited January 21, 2018 by reg

[BWM]

I wonder if these retailer statements are just an easy get out of their part in the warranty chain. 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, BWM said:

I wonder if these retailer statements are just an easy get out of their part in the warranty chain. 

 

It might first appear to be this but on reflection I think not. 

I think it is more a case of retailers wishing not to appear to be giving advice on suitablility when the are not qualified to do so.

Imagine Mr Overconfident DIYer walks in and asks the bloke behind the counter if it is OK to fit in a boat. Blokes says 'yes' so Mr ODIYer beetle off back to his boat and fits it in a bedroom, bathroom or sleeping area. Or in his newbuild sailaway. Next, he tries to sell it and buyers surveyor flags it up as non-compliant. 

Mr DIYer beetles off back to the retailer and demands a solution, saying the retailer gave him legally binding advice it was OK and demands a solution (which doesn't exist).

Retailers caught out like this are gonna just start saying 'not suitable for boats', aren't they!

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It might first appear to be this but on reflection I think not. 

I think it is more a case of retailers wishing not to appear to be giving advice on suitablility when the are not qualified to do so.

Imagine Mr Overconfident DIYer walks in and asks the bloke behind the counter if it is OK to fit in a boat. Blokes says 'yes' so Mr ODIYer beetle off back to his boat and fits it in a bedroom, bathroom or sleeping area. Or in his newbuild sailaway. Next, he tries to sell it and buyers surveyor flags it up as non-compliant. 

Mr DIYer beetles off back to the retailer and demands a solution, saying the retailer gave him legally binding advice it was OK and demands a solution (which doesn't exist).

Retailers caught out like this are gonna just start saying 'not suitable for boats', aren't they!

Wouldn't the same apply to Mr DIYer who after having his Morco freeze up & burst in his Static caravan subsequently fails his annual gas inspection ?

There are two clauses within site rules of static caravan parks which could apply :

1) Any work to the electrical or gas system in the holiday home must be carried out by the Park Owner’s approved professionally qualified person or company.

2)  The caravan gas system & appliances will be checked on an annual basis by a contactor approved by the Park owner. The caravan owner will be invoiced for this service.

Mr DIYer beetles off back to the retailer and demands a solution, saying the retailer gave him legally binding advice it was OK and demands a solution