C&RT spends less on mainteance

[jeanb]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Barton Turns lock has been leaking onto the towpath for 2 years now, it was barriers off for repair 12 months ago. ..it continues to leak, how soon before the side of the lock collapses.

Passed through this lock a couple of weeks ago and the leak was very obvious but there wasn't a "C&RT AWARE" sign that we noticed. I wonder if they've forgotten. 

[TheDuker]

1 hour ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

The grand publicity splash at this time of year always includes national and local press releases saying how much C&RT is spending over the winter works period. This is part of the national one for this winter -

What C&RT don't explain is why this figure is £7m lower than that for previous years ...

They also don't explain that the figure quoted is not the amount spent on 'a five-month-long programme of repairs' (i.e. winter works) but rather the total maintenance spend over. 

Isn't the figure of £7m somewhere near to the total that is poured down the holes labelled ''Enforcement'' and ''Shoosmiths'' every year ?

[rasputin]

A quick complaint to facebook about someone using a pseudonym rather than there real name often has pleasing results

[Athy]

32 minutes ago, rasputin said:

A quick complaint to facebook about someone using a pseudonym rather than there real name often has pleasing results

Why? Are pseudonyms discouraged on Face Book? They're common on many other discussion web sites.

"Floater" sounds like a perfectly appropriate pseudonym for a person writing about boating.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Athy

[rasputin]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

Why? Are pseudonyms discouraged on Face Book? They're common on many other discussion web sites.

"Floater" sounds like a perfectly appropriate pseudonym for a person writing about boating.

Yes, I have a friend who called herself tree spirit, she was kicked off and had to supply passport, birth certificate or driving licence to get back on

[Guest]

4 hours ago, matty40s said:

The problem as I see it, all over is that outsourcing repairs and maintenance may cut costs, but it is leading to more work needing to be done.

For example, a CRT survey is done of bricks in a lock that need rebricking and grouting. The survey shows a critical area of 100 bricks. The job sheet is outsourced.

By the time the actual works take place, 127 bricks are needing repair. 

The contractor does the specified 100 bricks, the other 27 are left for the next survey.......even though BW , and CRT would have done the whole lot in years gone by.

This is exactly my experience of facilities and maintenance outsourcing in the NHS.

But we only quoted for x and now you need y.

We can do y but it will cost (usually a lot) more.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Athy said:

Why? Are pseudonyms discouraged on Face Book? They're common on many other discussion web sites.

"Floater" sounds like a perfectly appropriate pseudonym for a person writing about boating.

Facebook normally requires the use of a user name in 'given name surname' format for personal accounts. Business accounts are treated differently.

AFAIK you could of course use a fake name but they wouldn't accept Athy or MJG as an example.

13 minutes ago, rasputin said:

Yes, I have a friend who called herself tree spirit, she was kicked off and had to supply passport, birth certificate or driving licence to get back on

Is that the same 'tree spirit' that used to post on here?

Scrunchy huggles and all that?

[MtB]

5 hours ago, MJG said:

Scrunchy huggles and all that?

 

"Treescrunchingly huggles", I think was... 

Anyway Tree is delightfully loopy and I hope she is ok. Not heard from her for years now. 

[MtB]

5 hours ago, MJG said:

This is exactly my experience of facilities and maintenance outsourcing in the NHS.

But we only quoted for x and now you need y.

We can do y but it will cost (usually a lot) more.

 

I know someone who works in IT doing this type of outsourcing work. Their sales people are terribly prone to selling x, then when the custard says "oh now we need y", agreeing to still do it for the price of x in fear of losing the contract when renewal day arrives. 

Then the IT dept are expected to do all the extra work, still within the timeframe originally agreed. 

[Athy]

7 hours ago, MJG said:

Facebook normally requires the use of a user name in 'given name surname' format for personal accounts. Business accounts are treated differently.

AFAIK you could of course use a fake name but they wouldn't accept Athy or MJG as an example.

 

Thanks for that info - as it happens, I do use my real name on FB, but I didn't know that it was compulsory.

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

"Treescrunchingly huggles", I think was... 

Anyway Tree is delightfully loopy and I hope she is ok. Not heard from her for years now. 

Moi thinks that I saw her on here briefly a few months ago, but moi could be mistaken.

Edit: she last visited on July 1st this year.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

A lot of people have been forced by Facebook to use their real name, although the degree to which Facebook detect it or enforce it seems very random.

A good example is "Maffi" formerly a regular poster on CWDF, who now posts on FaceBook by his real name  despite at one stage appearing to be highly protective of using it on public sites.

This relates only to actual user ids.  You can still have "pages" and "groups" named for businesses, clubs, education, etc.  I own and administer "NarrowBoatFlamingo", "NarrowBoatSickle" and "NewMoonMorris" for example, and if I had a communication called "LargeFloatingLog" or similar, I could still call a FB Page or Group that, just not myself!

i can't be bothered to see what Peter Underwood is actually doing with FaceBook in respect of "The Floater", because it has too loaded an agenda, and I refuse to read it. A different loaded agenda from NarrowBoatWorld, but still a very loaded agenda.  It is my understanding that since Allan Richards fell out with Tom Crossley he now puts his output on "The Floater" rather than NBW, but no doubt he can correct that if the situation has changed.

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, cuthound said:

Exactly, in my career I have a manged contracts with both direct labour and contractor resource. 

Contractors can do an excellent job, but only when the specification and contract supervision elements are of the highest order. (Same can apply to direct labour who often feel a sense often entitlement and become lazy if not adequately supervised).

From what I  see of CRT contractors, neither the specification or the supervision elements are up to scratch. 

I have seen evidence that the specs gradually improve over time as more experience is gained. (Contracts, in general, are all about plugging previous holes!) A small example is that of grass cutting where initially CaRT thought that it was enough to specify "please cut the grass on xxx canal" - and then had to insert clauses about how often, when and - more importantly - how to treat boaters and other users considerately and not spray a newly polished boat (or even one that has never seen polish) with finely minced grass cuttings.

One of the problems with unsupervised direct labour is that those who do the work (but have no wider oversight) will insist on 'doing it their way' regardless of the implications elsewhere. Do you also remember 'task and finish' for refuse collection? Nightmare.

Just remember - there is no silver bullet.

[Mike Todd]

16 hours ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Yes, I am sure.

Contrary to your view, a report in 2008 commissioned by BW from KPMG found it hard to predict  cost inflation. Potential savings - well BW gave them figures. They therefore provided a number of scenarios, including a best case (a need to spend £155m in 2016/17) and a worst case (a need to spend £185m). Some of these scenarios take into account potential cost savings identified by BW (over the next ten years) others don't.

However, its a bit academic as C&RT admit to gross underspending against their steady state model. One of the side effects of this is that the number of recorded defects is rising.




 

I think you are over-extrapolating. Of course it is difficult to predict inflation, of any kind. If it were easy we'd all be doing it.

However, whilst there are unanticipated changes in the rate of change, it is rarely a step function (unless we are daft enough to have a Brexit referendum!) and a budget based on extrapolation from the past few years is much better than a zero based estimate. But efficiency savings are zero-based - that is in most cases we have no prior history to build on, at least not directly and, to make it worse, there are two components which are differenced (ie the saving is the difference between a changing cost and benefit) which is inherently less stable. You also have to add in estimates of timing which may change for reasons entirely out of your control. For example, you may plan a new project only to discover that there is no-one prepared to tender for it on the planned timescale, just because they are already fully booked. (You may plan to save money on your heating costs by having a proper service but find everyone booked out for the next six months so no savings until much later) Too many organisation fixate on one year at a time budgets rather than longer term planning (planning in this way does not fit with the obsessed market driven politics that asserts that free market provision is always more efficient - that just ain't so!)

But I agree that this does nothing to reduce the maintenance problem. However, careful what you wish for. Either we return to a publicly funded model with a block grant that is sized according to need but, as we see with much more important matters such as the NHS, we are long past the time when 'the public' (ie voters) are prepared to pay up taxation on the basis of meeting a general need and blindly believe those who promise to reduce taxes without impacting service levels. Alternatively, we go further into the free market model and that will involve all sorts of changes that many users, especially traditionalist, will inevitably rail against. One of the consequences of this approach is that the user voice is much more frequently ignored in the pursuit of the 'does it make a profit?' mantra.

We could, then, stick with the mixed mode approach of part block grants and part market economics. It may be a bit messy but it is probably better than either extreme. But, without something like a charge for usage toll system, it will mean that a maintenance shortfall is all but a fact of life. 

Much better to concentrate on positive pressure to do things better, or even more efficiently, than just bemoaning that it is not perfect. CaRT Board know that and it does not take Cassandra to tell them.

[Mike Todd]

10 hours ago, MJG said:

This is exactly my experience of facilities and maintenance outsourcing in the NHS.

But we only quoted for x and now you need y.

We can do y but it will cost (usually a lot) more.

But this is rather poor quality (or inexperienced) outsourcing, perhaps driven by excessive pressure to reduce costs, not gain efficiency.

It is quite possible to ask for tenders (eg) to restore a lock to a given standard and for the contractor to absorb the uncertainties. However, it does mean that in individual cases the contractor sometimes strikes lucky and makes a larger profit whilst in other they make a loss. Public pressure (usually ill informed) only highlights the former leading to pressure to adopt sillier specs. (you get what you asked for)

[IanM]

10 hours ago, Athy said:

Why? Are pseudonyms discouraged on Face Book? They're common on many other discussion web sites.

"Floater" sounds like a perfectly appropriate pseudonym for a person writing about boating.

Personal Facebook profiles have to use a proper name.  The Floater is a Facebook Page so they can call it what they want.

[cuthound]

12 hours ago, MJG said:

This is exactly my experience of facilities and maintenance outsourcing in the NHS.

But we only quoted for x and now you need y.

We can do y but it will cost (usually a lot) more.

I used to put in a "cost plus" clause into any specifications I wrote, stating that additional labour and material costs would be met at (say) 6% above actual costs, but we would need to see their books to establish the cost incurred by the contractor. 

[Mike Todd]

19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I used to put in a "cost plus" clause into any specifications I wrote, stating that additional labour and material costs would be met at (say) 6% above actual costs, but we would need to see their books to establish the cost incurred by the contractor. 

There has been good and bad experience with cost-plus. It became notorious in (I think) the Seventies as a result of a particular contractor abusing the scheme. But I also recall that poor specification aided and abetted it.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

11 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

.

.

.

But I agree that this does nothing to reduce the maintenance problem.

.

.

.

Quite! Efficiency savings, real or imagined have little effect on C&RT's backlog of maintenance.

C&RT seem to have got into a vicious circle. Faced with a growing backlog of maintenance, they have instituted a system of tackling high priority defects. Basically, they identify the most important things to fix based on safety and customer service. In round terms, they target to fix around 5,000 of 70,000+ defects they have. Unfortunately, year on year they have failed to fix a significant proportion of the targeted defects. The excuse seems to be that they have to divert resources to deal with defects that arise within year.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

14 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

A lot of people have been forced by Facebook to use their real name, although the degree to which Facebook detect it or enforce it seems very random.

A good example is "Maffi" formerly a regular poster on CWDF, who now posts on FaceBook by his real name  despite at one stage appearing to be highly protective of using it on public sites.

This relates only to actual user ids.  You can still have "pages" and "groups" named for businesses, clubs, education, etc.  I own and administer "NarrowBoatFlamingo", "NarrowBoatSickle" and "NewMoonMorris" for example, and if I had a communication called "LargeFloatingLog" or similar, I could still call a FB Page or Group that, just not myself!

i can't be bothered to see what Peter Underwood is actually doing with FaceBook in respect of "The Floater", because it has too loaded an agenda, and I refuse to read it. A different loaded agenda from NarrowBoatWorld, but still a very loaded agenda.  It is my understanding that since Allan Richards fell out with Tom Crossley he now puts his output on "The Floater" rather than NBW, but no doubt he can correct that if the situation has changed.

I have not fallen out with Tom Crossley.

As you profess not to read these publications you will not have seen that narrowboatworld are running my story on minimum safety standards.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Allan(nb Albert)

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I have not fallen out with Tom Crossley.

As you profess not to read narrowboatworld you will not have seen that they are running my story on minimum safety standards.

That is surely the implication of this which was sent to me as published by "Victor".

Quote

Many of the articles are by someone well known to narrowboatworld readers, Allan Richards. Now Allan was our political editor for a while until his articles became little more than a medium for discrediting Canal & River Trust. But from being fairly sensible we discovered they were becoming more and more anti Canal & River Trust, and we were shown that they were often incorrect, so with readers complaining of his endless carping, eventually we refused to publish, at which he seemingly took umbrage and teamed up with like-minded Peter Underwood.

If you claim you hadn't fallen out with him, it seems he at least was saying he had stopped publishing your articles for the reasons he gives.  That is what he said, wasn't it?  It's hard to read what he said any other way. 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

7 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

If you claim you hadn't fallen out with him, it seems he at least was saying he had stopped publishing your articles for the reasons he gives.  That is what he said, wasn't it?  It's hard to read what he said any other way. 

I feel it does a person little credit pretending they don't read narrowboatworld and then quoting it, saying it was sent to them by a third party.

But thank you for the retraction ...

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Allan(nb Albert)

[BlueStringPudding]

On 01/11/2017 at 06:19, frangar said:

I rarely block anyone anywhere but the way the chap who posts “the floater” spam all over the Facebook boating groups meant he was the possibly first person I ever blocked. Total drivel....and if you criticised his viewpoint he wasn’t happy! 

Yup. I blocked him on Facebook too.